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Shinji's social life/orientation


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Ktimene's Lover



Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 2242
Location: Glendale, AZ (Proudly living in the desert)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:50 am Reply with quote
Shinji could almost be considered autistic. The only one who his buds before Kaworu were Toji and Kensuke. However, Kaworu was the only truly caring person he knew. I personally believe Kaworu loved in both a brotherly and homosexual way. However, I don't buy that Kaworu/Shinji crap. To me, Shinji did indeed love him but in a brotherly way. We've seen evidence he's got an attraction to Asuka: [spoiler]"thermal expansion" scene at the end of "Magma Diver"; when he attempted kiss her sleeping[/spoiler.] But his infamous scene gives indication he didn't do it for sexual purposes. He was looking for a way to handle the crap he's gone through.
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NeonGEvangelion



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 141
Location: El Paso TX
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:29 pm Reply with quote
Ctimene's Lover wrote:
Shinji could almost be considered autistic. The only one who his buds before Kaworu were Toji and Kensuke. However, Kaworu was the only truly caring person he knew. I personally believe Kaworu loved in both a brotherly and homosexual way. However, I don't buy that Kaworu/Shinji crap. To me, Shinji did indeed love him but in a brotherly way. We've seen evidence he's got an attraction to Asuka:spoiler["thermal expansion" scene at the end of "Magma Diver"; when he attempted kiss her sleeping But his infamous scene gives indication he didn't do it for sexual purposes]. He was looking for a way to handle the crap he's gone through.


I agree whole heartedly with you, that Shinji is not a homosexual. People love each other in many ways, either conditional and unconditional. I believe that Shinji was attracted to Asuka, but could not express it. Shinjis infamous jerk off scene, could indicate that his hormones got the best of him, and/or it was an escape from reality (His problems in other words).
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Anthony P



Joined: 27 Oct 2005
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Location: Phoenix, Arizona, US
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:46 pm Reply with quote
Ctimene's Lover wrote:
Shinji could almost be considered autistic. The only one who his buds before Kaworu were Toji and Kensuke.

Autism is actually a neurological disorder; Shinji's condition is purely psychological. Autistic people aren't withdrawn because of any psychological or emotional issues, but because, for lack of a better term, their brains are wired differently. Autistic people aren't really "shy" or "withdrawn" in the way that you or I would be, it's that they respond to interactive and communicative stimuli in a completely different way. I do have an autistic younger brother, so I have quite a bit of firsthand experience. There's also more to autism than the communicative/interactive side of it, but I'll try and keep this post on the short side and not derail the topic too much.
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omnistry



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 1021
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:00 pm Reply with quote
Anthony P wrote:
Ctimene's Lover wrote:
Shinji could almost be considered autistic. The only one who his buds before Kaworu were Toji and Kensuke.

Autism is actually a neurological disorder; Shinji's condition is purely psychological. Autistic people aren't withdrawn because of any psychological or emotional issues, but because, for lack of a better term, their brains are wired differently. Autistic people aren't really "shy" or "withdrawn" in the way that you or I would be, it's that they respond to interactive and communicative stimuli in a completely different way. I do have an autistic younger brother, so I have quite a bit of firsthand experience. There's also more to autism than the communicative/interactive side of it, but I'll try and keep this post on the short side and not derail the topic too much.


There are many different levels of Autism. I'm classified as "High-Functioning"; but even that has levels in it. I'd be considered on the top. You wouldn't know I had it unless I told ya. You can say I lucked out.

I never though of Shinji as Autistic. I just thought he lacked family figures (cold father, dead mother, no siblings); and since he had no way of learning from his family on how to act socially he tends to be shy and soft-spoken.

Osaka from "Azumanga Daioh!" -- on the other hand -- is a different story. She tends to have the symptoms of Autism; but since she is a woman she would be a lot worse off than she is in the show (women with Autism, which are very rare, tend to be a lot more aggressive, unsociable, and -- quite frankly -- psychotic). Perhaps she just has ADD (while Tomo is ADHD).
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Epinephrine



Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 31
Location: Missouri, USA
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:35 pm Reply with quote
Kaoru dose not love Shinji in a homosexual way. When he says he loves Shinji, he is stating that he loves all of humanity, as in the way God has undying love for mankind.

Also, you must realize that Kaoru is an Angel and cant be held to a strict gender role, plus he may just be unfamiliar with human interation to a certain degree. He dosent know the taboo's between male to male intamacy.

This is backed up in the manga by the way Kaoru is dipicted.

Shinji reacted simply by how much love and affection he was shown. He was shown more affection by Kaoru in a single day than Gendo has ever shown PERIOD. Yes, he loves Kaoru in a brotherly way, but there is more to the story.

Shinji grew up without parents and lacked any romantic releationships, it is conceivable that he just didn't know how to properly react. He even states that Kaoru is the first person who tells him he is loved.

This is just scratching the serface of this topic. This topic has raged from the day episode 24 aired in Japan for the first time and will rageon for years to come. All I can say is either take what I have said and accept it or draw your own conclusions. Anno did many things in Eva on purpose so that the audience could make up their own mind. I have done the same and presented my case, but Im one person, and everyone has their own opinion.
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Anthony P



Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 227
Location: Phoenix, Arizona, US
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:12 pm Reply with quote
omnistry wrote:
There are many different levels of Autism. I'm classified as "High-Functioning"; but even that has levels in it. I'd be considered on the top. You wouldn't know I had it unless I told ya.

I've met some individuals that were high-functioning or had Asperger's, and while their cases are subtle, I think one can still tell it's a form of autism rather than them just being shy or withdrawn after some observation. But I suppose we should consider you the authority on this subject. Smile
Quote:
You can say I lucked out.

Indeed. I've seen some pretty severe cases.

Quote:
I never though of Shinji as Autistic. I just thought he lacked family figures (cold father, dead mother, no siblings); and since he had no way of learning from his family on how to act socially he tends to be shy and soft-spoken.

That's what I think, too. Given all the background information and the way he behaves, Shinji is a case of childhood trauma coming to a head in the form of teen angst. I'd say that's the same impression that most people get, as well.

Quote:
Osaka from "Azumanga Daioh!" -- on the other hand -- is a different story. She tends to have the symptoms of Autism; but since she is a woman she would be a lot worse off than she is in the show (women with Autism, which are very rare, tend to be a lot more aggressive, unsociable, and -- quite frankly -- psychotic). Perhaps she just has ADD (while Tomo is ADHD).

I believe the incidence is five times higher with males than with females. (?)
The Osaka thing came up in the Anime characters with OCD? thread. The general consensus seemed to be that Osaka has ADD.
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hanachan01



Joined: 11 Dec 2005
Posts: 504
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:47 am Reply with quote
<---I think my stance on the Kaworu/Shinji thing is obvious ;P

I think Shinji and Kaworu are in love in a romantic way. However, Shinji is clearly into women (mainly Asuka), so he can't be homosexual. He could be heterosexual or bisexual, however.

Kaworu, although an angel, can be held to gender norms. Nothing in the series implies that he ever had any other form than his current one of a teenage boy, meaning he has probably lived as a male most or all of his life. He can't be held to normal social standards, but he isn't kissing everyone he sees, just Shinji (even if it was only once!). This shows that Kaworu has some sort of attraction to Shinji. Kaworu is probably following his natural urges, unknowing of the taboo of it. He is probably either homosexual or bisexual, but not heterosexual.

Almost everytime Shinji is near Kaworu, he blushes. Blushing is a classic anime symbol of romantic or sexual attraction. Also, when Kaworu tells Shinji he loves him, Shinji doesn't reject this or gets grossed out-he even sleeps over at Kaworu's apartment. Another example is when Shinji says he should go to bed, Kaworu replies, "With me?" Shinji is not grossed out at this either, even though Kaworu is clearly hitting on him.

Even though Asuka had gone nuts, Rei died again and her dummy plugs were destroyed right before his eyes, his father took control of Unit 01 from him and used it to injure Toji, and Kaji died, making Misato a total wreck, it's Kaworu's death that made Shinji lose it. Shinji just killed the only person that he ever loved that loved him back other than his deceased mother, making him go crazy. Because of this, the story reminds me a bit of Romeo and Juliet and other stories with "star-crossed lovers."

But I like Shinji with Asuka as well as Kaworu. Just not with Rei-it's a little to close to incest for me. Wink
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EVA fiend



Joined: 19 Nov 2006
Posts: 314
Location: Somewhere in the UK.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:23 am Reply with quote
Hmm, never considered Shinji having autism. I thought he was the way he was due to the lack of a proper family environment when he was growing up. When he gets to Tokyo-3, Misato is probably the first person to treat him as family, & as such, he's unsure of how to act, & fumbles his way through his emotions & his interactions with others.

Epinephrine wrote:
Kaoru dose not love Shinji in a homosexual way. When he says he loves Shinji, he is stating that he loves all of humanity, as in the way God has undying love for mankind. *snip*


I thought that too, spoiler[until someone posted up a page from volume 10 of Sadamoto's manga] (can be construed as a SPOILER so don't click the link below if you don't want the manga to be spoiled);

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h211/EVA_fiend/manga10.jpg Neutral
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daxomni



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:48 pm Reply with quote
I don't care what anybody says about angels and gender, Kaoru was one very gay cat. Shinji was just a shy, depressed, and emotionally weak little boy with a massive inferiority complex and very little real world experience from which to draw upon. Kaoru was the perfect match for Shinji. As we saw, by being just another boy he could get closer to Shinji than most any girl could and Shinji was far too inexperienced to easily see the difference between a close friendship and a casual romance. Thus he didn't resist as you might expect him to and his deep-rooted desire for compassion virtually ensured he would reciprocate eventually, no matter what the terms. Haven't you ever known anyone who settled down with the very first person who ever showed them any kind of love? I think that's part of what Shinji was going through. He might not have been homosexual, but he was so blinded by desire for love that I think he would have put up with almost any type of relationship that came his way.

Epinephrine wrote:
When he says he loves Shinji, he is stating that he loves all of humanity, as in the way God has undying love for mankind.


I kind of assumed that the gay aspect was perhaps also intended to add additional weight to their relationship in the sense that it could be seen as going against God's wishes depending on how far they took it.
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Dranxis



Joined: 23 Feb 2005
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Location: Ohtori Academy
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 2:33 pm Reply with quote
I'm of the opinion that while Kaworu was definitely attracted to Shinji, and that Shinji was drawn to him as well (because Kaworu was the first to show him undisguised love) I really doubt that either one perceived their relationship to be homosexual. Kaworu, unlike the other Angels, wanted to understand and help mankind, and finding Shinji he grew to love the "Lillim," flawed as they were. It's hard to say if Kaworu had sexual feelings for him: I think that as an Angel Kaworu didn't really understand sexuality, so his love was more "pure." Shinji on the other hand probably interepreted Kaworu's love to be a little more romantic since Kaworu was so direct, and subconsciously was attracted to him as well. So I think to say they're a homosexual couple is a little one-sided, but yeah, there's evidence there.
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hanachan01



Joined: 11 Dec 2005
Posts: 504
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:50 pm Reply with quote
daxomni wrote:
I don't care what anybody says about angels and gender, Kaoru was one very gay cat. Shinji was just a shy, depressed, and emotionally weak little boy with a massive inferiority complex and very little real world experience from which to draw upon. Kaoru was the perfect match for Shinji. As we saw, by being just another boy he could get closer to Shinji than most any girl could and Shinji was far too inexperienced to easily see the difference between a close friendship and a casual romance. Thus he didn't resist as you might expect him to and his deep-rooted desire for compassion virtually ensured he would reciprocate eventually, no matter what the terms. Haven't you ever known anyone who settled down with the very first person who ever showed them any kind of love? I think that's part of what Shinji was going through. He might not have been homosexual, but he was so blinded by desire for love that I think he would have put up with almost any type of relationship that came his way.

Epinephrine wrote:
When he says he loves Shinji, he is stating that he loves all of humanity, as in the way God has undying love for mankind.


I kind of assumed that the gay aspect was perhaps also intended to add additional weight to their relationship in the sense that it could be seen as going against God's wishes depending on how far they took it.


I 100% agree with you! That's what I was attempting ot say, but it came out wrong....

Dranxis wrote:
It's hard to say if Kaworu had sexual feelings for him: I think that as an Angel Kaworu didn't really understand sexuality, so his love was more "pure."


While I agree with most of what you said, I think the opposite about this. I think that because Kaworu is and Angel and doesn't understand sexuality, he is more inclined to follow his insticts and be more sexual. Why else would he responded to Shinji saying he was going to bed by saying, "With me?"

Here is a really good article on Kaworu and Shinji's relationship, and it links to many other interesting ones- http://www.kaworu.com/kaworu/controversy/
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Samurai-with-glasses



Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 628
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:22 am Reply with quote
daxomni wrote:
I kind of assumed that the gay aspect was perhaps also intended to add additional weight to their relationship in the sense that it could be seen as going against God's wishes depending on how far they took it.
Do the Japanese suffer from the insanity that is American Evangelical Gay-Hating (In God's Name!?) as well? Do they also perceive Christianity as anti-gay as to use that as a theme in such a show as Evangelion?

I kind of doubt it, for some reason. To me, they seem care more about Lucifer's fall, Eden, and all that nifty stuff in the creation myth, as used extensively in Evangelion for coolness factor. May be also the peace and love aspect, but certainly not in NGE.

For me, well, I don't buy most of the pairings interpreted by overzealous fans, especially Evangelion. Waaaaaayy too many Asuka-Rei pairings out there (not that I actually seek any) for me to not assume that the Boys' Love side of things is simply getting its way into the Evangelion cast as much as the Girl-with-Girl crowd had for a long time (not that this pairing is in any way, shape, or form, "new").

Kaoru was an angel, in any case. It's hard to assume that an angel is sexually interested in a random boy that's been killing his brethren for a while. The "awkward" scene is, to me, just there to make a point along the lines of "angels are different" (and couldn't care less about human-created social norms) or something like that. You know, the "genuine love" thing that puts us gloriously socialized people into awkwardness.

Though if they indeed are homosexual, I don't see why things would be different. It'd be the same: Shinji loses someone who he genuinely love, the one that gives both him and the audience some breather while the world of the series forcibly fall apart in an extremity of angst, destruction, suffering, and all those beauties. So now it really falls apart in a big way.
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daxomni



Joined: 08 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:34 pm Reply with quote
Samurai-with-glasses wrote:
Do the Japanese suffer from the insanity that is American Evangelical Gay-Hating (In God's Name!?) as well? Do they also perceive Christianity as anti-gay as to use that as a theme in such a show as Evangelion?


I'm no expert on homosexuality or on Christianity, primarily because I'm not a member of either group, so I could certainly be wrong about all this. However, I think it's generally well known that the Christian scripture is often seen by those who follow it as being against modern gay lifestyles. Personally I think the scripture is wrong to condemn something that doesn't seem to harm anyone, but I cannot deny that this is how many Christians seem to interpret it.
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Kelly



Joined: 17 Nov 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:26 pm Reply with quote
From Leviticus 18:22: "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination". Unfortunately, very little wiggle room there for gays and the people who love them or are sympathetic towards them. Alot of moderate denominations are struggling with an official stand on homosexuality.

As for the issue at hand, I agree with your view that at that point in his life, Shinji would have responded to anyone who treated him well, daxomni.
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Samurai-with-glasses



Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 628
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:13 am Reply with quote
Kelly wrote:
From Leviticus 18:22: "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination". Unfortunately, very little wiggle room there for gays and the people who love them or are sympathetic towards them. Alot of moderate denominations are struggling with an official stand on homosexuality.
I wouldn't trust the book Leviticus as God's Indisputable Word if I am a Christian. The book contains, apart from an attack on homosexuality: the details practice of animal sacrifice, the ban on camel, pigs, and other creatures' meat ("unclean" ones), and a blasphemer being stoned to death.

Are you sinners who eat swines and fail to observe proper rituals and sacrifices be ready to be stoned to death? Wink

My take on Leviticus is very academic in that it appears to be a law meant for utilitarian purposes -- sanitation ("unclean" animals and other rituals of cleanliness), (primitive) crime punishment, and anti-incest laws, for example -- invoking a Deity, as is a very usual practice in every human societies out there. :/ It's actually very similar to some other ancient laws in the region. If anything, Islam banned swine's meat...

That and it is the Old Testament -- if you are Christian, then the New Testament supercedes the old at points of dispute; you can't just pick and choose what God's Law you like to follow now, can you? [you = general term, not specific poster]

Back to the topic, however, I'm still not convinced that the Japanese really do share this idea that God Hates Homosexuality enough to put it into their anime. I mean, NGE uses Christianity for gimmicky purposes, emulating the Genesis myth (to a point...) just for coolness factor alone. I don't see a reason why that show would be interested in this particular angle when the character Kaoru is created, or when the relationship between him and Shinji is defined.
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