Forum - View topicMost Improved Character Tournament: Post-Mortem
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One-Eye
 Posts: 2267 |
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Group D-1
Simon, Gurren Lagann vs. Yuu Gotou, Noein – to your other self Voting for Simon, Gurren Lagann Group D-2 Yuuko Kanoe, Dusk Maiden of Amnesia vs. Chagum, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Voting for Yuuko Kanoe, Dusk Maiden of Amnesia. Moribito is one of my favorite anime shows, but I think Chagum is one of the weakest entrants in this tournament. He shows off his natural intelligence in situations like the gambling and wrestling episodes, but that's not growth that's just him using what he already has. He has a naturally inquisitive mind which he uses to learn the customs of the common people, but again that's just a part of him which he needs to use in order to survive in his new environment and most of what he learns is because he has people around him teaching it to him. He steels himself for the final eventual showdown, but that's after spoiler[he ran away and Balsa had to slap him around some]. When he finally has to say goodbye to Balsa he cries like a baby and when she teases him if he wants to run away with her he knows he has to stay and fulfill his obligations as a prince. What all of this shows is that Chagum has matured slightly from a child living a sheltered life at court to a child with some broader knowledge of the world. This is not deep growth here. When I compare Chagum against Yuuko, who is from a show that I consider a disappointment, I find his growth to be minimal and not particularly significant. Yuuko has to deal with new feelings she never experienced, memories she has tried to bury, and the horror of her death. Yuuko may not be a strong candidate herself, but she also doesn't have a bodyguard to protect her or a host of characters to teach her the ropes of living. I give the edge to Yuuko. Group D-3 Porco Rosso, Porco Rosso vs. Rue, Princess Tutu Voting for Rue, Princess Tutu. Group D-4 Waver Velvet, Fate/Zero vs. Vegeta, Dragonball Z/Kai Voting for Waver Velvet, Fate/Zero Group D-5 Tsume, Wolf’s Rain vs. Suzu, The Twelve Kingdoms Voting for Tsume, Wolf’s Rain. Voted for Suzu last round voting against her this round. I think Suzu is the weakest of the 12K entrants and I'm not too crazy about how her improvement was executed in the story. Group D-6 Momo Miyaura, A Letter to Momo vs. Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, Sailor Moon Voting for Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, Sailor Moon Group D-7 Saji Crossroad, Mobile Suit Gundam 00 vs. Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero Voting for Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero. I'm not a giant fan of the Fate series and there's stuff I hate about Fate/Stay Night (Shirou is a chauvinistic pig!), but the ending is pretty awesome with Saber achieving some peace and almost makes the whole franchise worth it. Group D-8 Masakazu Misaki, Time of Eve vs. Tsukimi Kurashita, Princess Jellyfish Voting for Tsukimi Kurashita, Princess Jellyfish. Own both seen both. These two are not very strong contenders, but Masakazu is the weaker by far imho. Masakazu is the way that he is, even though deep inside he knows better about robots, because he's heartbroken and a little bitter from his childhood. His change occurs when he learns some information about a particular robot from his childhood and that's about it. We can sum it up with just that and it could be argued that his churlish disposition at times was a front for his hurt feelings and once it was explained away he got better. Tsukimi is practically a hikikomori living almost cloistered with other female otakus at an all female place. She experiences anxiety and obviously feels separate from everyday people and life especially if they are fashionable. She struggles with these feelings and by the end of the show she connects with her dead mother, who she misses terribly, by making spoiler[Jellyfish dresses] and gains some confidence at the spoiler[fashion show] where she admits her old self would have run away. To me Masakazu has for the most part one moment that changes him whereas Tsukimi has to struggle with who she is and the tragedy that has impacted her life while beginning to see possibilities beyond the more limited life she led. Tsukimi for me is the stronger choice. |
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Aylinn
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Group D-1
Simon, Gurren Lagann vs. Yuu Gotou, Noein – to your other self Simon Group D-2 Yuuko Kanoe, Dusk Maiden of Amnesia vs. Chagum, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Chagum I think that he displayed a good amount of bravery in his circumstances, and as I imagine that the piece of information that the spirit's guardian must die would scary even an adult person I will not take it against him that initially he was horrified by the prospect of his own death. Especially since he was ultimately able to face it. I don't see why the horror of Chagum's potential death should be downplayed while Yuuko Kanoe's not. And it is true that Balsa is a great support for Chagum, but unless I misunderstood what is written in the guide entry, a characters named Teiichi supports Yuuko Kanoe in her attempt to find out the truth, so it is not like she has to deal with it alone. Group D-3 Porco Rosso, Porco Rosso vs. Rue, Princess Tutu Rue Her development is good enough to make her advance to the next round. Group D-4 Waver Velvet, Fate/Zero vs. Vegeta, Dragonball Z/Kai Waver Velvet Group D-5 Tsume, Wolf’s Rain vs. Suzu, The Twelve Kingdoms Tsume Group D-6 Momo Miyaura, A Letter to Momo vs. Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, Sailor Moon Momo Miyaura Group D-7 Saji Crossroad, Mobile Suit Gundam 00 vs. Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero Saber Group D-8 Masakazu Misaki, Time of Eve vs. Tsukimi Kurashita, Princess Jellyfish Tsukimi Kurashita I have seen both and I have no doubt that Tsukimi is the better choice here. Masakazu's problem is petty. And his denial of facts lasted for so long, only because of his childish stubbornness. Tsukimi's improvement is more significant and what she achieves in the process is nothing that Masakazu can rival. |
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marie-antoinette
 Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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So, looking for video clips on Youtube again to support arguments for Tsume but I am sadly not finding the one I want separate from a good chunk of the episode, which again, I'm not sure I should be linking to from here. But if you want to remind yourself about why Tsume deserves to win this round, the infamous speech mentioned in the guide will do it.
The speech is from episode 29 and is about halfway through the episode (the clip I found was in two parts and part 2 started with it). Said speech is also one of the reasons Crispin Freeman has said Tsume was one of his favourite roles to play. If you haven't already seen Wolf's Rain, fair warning that this clip is about as spoilerish as they come. But it is also brilliant and shows in many ways just how much Tsume has grown in his journey from lone wolf with very little purpose to part of a wolf pack that has a reason and the strong drive to accomplish their goals, no matter what. |
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rheiders
 Posts: 1137 Location: Colorful Colorado :) |
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Kind of depressed to see Yukari go. Oh, well.
Group D-1 Simon, Gurren Lagann I wasn't sure about this one because the guide makes Yuu's development seem interesting, but it is also a very confusing scenario. Arguments have convinced me that he is no threat to Simon, who develops from a weak, shy little digger boy to a confident young man capable of fighting universes! Group D-2 Chagum, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Chagum develops from a scared, spoiled child to a young man worthy of the throne, and fully capable of facing his own fear of death. Group D-3 Rue, Princess Tutu Really, it's just a matter of Rue having more time to develop. Group D-4 Waver Velvet, Fate/Zero I haven't seen Fate/Zero yet, but it sounds like Waver improves a lot. Group D-5 Tsume, Wolf’s Rain I feel kinda strongly about this one, so I'm going to attempt to be articulate (yeah, right)...Tsume improves in two of the ways mentioned in the description for this tournament. First, he “initially has an ill-defined personality but this is remedied as the title/franchise progresses.” At first, he is a pretty straightforward “punk/rebel” character (check out that leather!), but as the series goes on it is revealed that there is a lot more to him than that. Second, he “starts out as weak and/or flawed but gradually overcomes initial deficiencies to become stronger and/or more respectable.” I just recently rewatched the very episode marie-antoinette mentioned (edit: I mean episode 6, but I also recommend checking out that speech in episode 29), and that scene is indeed very powerful. Tsume initially wasn’t that enthused by the quest to find Paradise, wanting to return to the aimless but complacent life he knew in the ruined city of the first couple episodes. However, he realizes in the City of Scars that the wolves there, who have completely given up on Paradise and fallen to the level of working as dogs for food, are just like the wolf he used to be. He realizes that the search for Paradise has given him purpose and fulfillment, and he’s not going to waste that. Of course, he develops a lot past that point as well. The series is about characters, both human and wolf, who are bettered through the act of striving for something higher than themselves. At the beginning of the show, Tsume leads a gang of delinquent humans because he finds comfort in the fact that he is different from them. He says to Toboe that he doesn’t trust people, and that way, nobody has to trust him. He is insecure about his own inadequacy and deals with that by hanging out with people much weaker than him. However, the quest for Paradise leads him to form real connections for the first time—especially with Toboe—and to deal with all the baggage that comes along with that. I am reminded of the scene right at the end where Tsume spoiler[asks for a moment alone to mourn Toboe’s death]. At the beginning of the series, he is the last character one would expect to show such tenderness. I love Suzu and her development, but I think there is one major flaw in the character writing of 12K that hinders her against this particular opponent: it tends to be kind of heavy-handed. Like any good adaptation, the series makes a lot of good changes to visualize story elements which, in the source material, were just dialogue or inner monologue. However, it is in some of the most important conversations that are left in, which often have to do with furthering character development, that the series’ roots as a series of YA novels really show. Nothing is left to the imagination—we are told exactly how the character must change, how they do change, and why in no uncertain terms, often multiple times. Each character arc is wrapped up with a nice pretty moral, usually about “becoming a master of yourself” or some-such. Suzu in particular has a problem with wallowing in self-pity, so she has to learn from a magical little helper fairy (a little sick boy) to “cry only when she is truly sad.” I love the show, but it has the subtlety of a sledgehammer, and Suzu is the weakest 12K contestant. Compared to a show like Wolf’s Rain, which is all about subtle writing and showing over telling, Suzu just doesn’t stand up. Group D-6 Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, Sailor Moon I haven't seen Letter to Momo and have only seen a few random scenes of Sailor Moon, but the write-up for Usagi impresses me more. Group D-7 Saji Crossroad, Mobile Suit Gundam 00 Saber's write-up didn't seem that impressive to me. However, I am willing to change my vote here if I hear a good enough argument for her. Group D-8 Tsukimi Kurashita, Princess Jellyfish Arguments have made it pretty clear that Tsukimi is the better choice here. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Minigame results.
Rosebrook's lead is slipping, so now both Tris and farichada are only 2 points behind the lead. And sorry to break the bad news to those of you who "only" got two or three wrong this time, but most people got less than that wrong, and five went with all seeds. Personally, the biggest surprise for me was that Ami Kawashima did so poorly (Hikaru ended up the only character this round to score a better vote tally than predicted by minigame results). I would have actually preferred her to move on rather than Taiga. |
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getchman
 He started itPosts: 9134 Location: New Hampshire |
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I never expected to do very well, so I'm ok with that
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Tris8
 Posts: 2114 Location: Where the rain is. |
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Dang, every single minigame entrant picked Youko Nakajima to move on. Even with the strongest favorites, there's usually a couple bets against them. Just goes to show how strong she is. Dorcas, in the minigame results you have yourself down for Kenshin for the Watanuki vs Tusbasa match-up.
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WhiteHairGirls
 Posts: 4713 Location: New York City |
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That might be the case in a real life sporting event. There is always that small chance that the best team will be one and done, but that doesn't apply to tournaments like this. |
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CrowLia
 Posts: 5528 Location: Mexico |
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Group D-1
Simon, Gurren Lagann vs. Yuu Gotou, Noein – to your other self Simon, Gurren Lagann. It's hard to contend Simon on character development, not only do we watch him grow from a little kid to a grown man who shoulders humanity's fate, but also as a person who travels a long journey, encountering not only hardship but undescribable pain and loss, and being able to overcome those and become a leader, an inspiration and a source of hope for his comrades. Group D-2 Yuuko Kanoe, Dusk Maiden of Amnesia vs. Chagum, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Chagum, Moribito - Guardian of the Spirit Group D-3 Porco Rosso, Porco Rosso vs. Rue, Princess Tutu Rue, Princess Tutu Group D-4 Waver Velvet, Fate/Zero vs. Vegeta, Dragonball Z/Kai Waver Velvet, Fate/Zero Apart from the fact that I nominated him, I think Waver goes a long way in scarce 25 episodes. From his initial bratty self who wants to prove his worth no matter what -leading him to get himself involved in the war- to realizing the danger and horror he is truly facing and reverting to his true cowardice nature. Then further on, through interacting with Rider and learning the way a Conqueror views the world he gains confidence and learns to value his life and his Servant, which leads to the final confrontation with Archer/Gilgamesh, the heart-breaking tragedy and Waver getting the determination to face such a fearsome enemy -which earns him acknowledgment and recognition from Gilgamesh himself- but to keep on living and tell the story of the Grail War and the heroes that fought it. Group D-5 Tsume, Wolf’s Rain vs. Suzu, The Twelve Kingdoms Tsume, Wolf's Rain Tsume actually deserves to move on to the next round. He progresses from the wolf who kept antagonizing Kiba over the leadership and acted distant from his comrades, wanting nothing to do with their pack, their camraderie or anything like that, to the man who stays behind to take care of Toboe and cry for him in what's got to be my favorite scene of the series Group D-6 Momo Miyaura, A Letter to Momo vs. Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, Sailor Moon Momo Miyaura, A Letter to Momo Mostly anti-Usagi vote. While I haven't watched the whole of SM, I did watch on and off until the middle-ish of the series and she was the same crybaby, spoiled and airheaded pretend of a leader that she was in the first episodes. If half of the show isn't enough to show some improvement -for a protagonist nonetheless- I don't think the remaining half can be that much of a case Group D-7 Saji Crossroad, Mobile Suit Gundam 00 vs. Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero Saber, Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Zero Group D-8 Masakazu Misaki, Time of Eve vs. Tsukimi Kurashita, Princess Jellyfish Masakazu Misaki, Time of Eve |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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Usually, but not always. There are always a few first round picks that get chosen by all minigame entrants, and three total that still had everyone favoring them in the second round. I've made a list, but it's too long to belong here. Anyone interested can pm me a request for it.
Yeah, I realized that only after I uploaded it. I think I meant to pick Kimihiro Watanuki and mixed up which name I picked from the autocomplete option filling in the cell in my master spreadsheet. I'm going to change that in future versions. |
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Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6584 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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Group D-1
Simon, Gurren Lagann vs. Yuu Gotou, Noein – to your other self Yuu Gotou. This is actually a vote against Simon who, while he does gain confidence, in any measure that matters to me, goes backwards as a character over the course of the series. Given that he likely to win this match-up in a canter I’ll leave my reasons at that for now. Group D-2 Yuuko Kanoe, Dusk Maiden of Amnesia vs. Chagum, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Chagum Group D-3 Porco Rosso, Porco Rosso vs. Rue, Princess Tutu Woe is me – this is hard. I’ll go for Porco Rosso because, as Porco says, "All middle-aged men are pigs," so I can relate to his improvement. Group D-4 Waver Velvet, Fate/Zero vs. Vegeta, Dragonball Z/Kai Waver Velvet Group D-5 Tsume, Wolf’s Rain vs. Suzu, The Twelve Kingdoms Suzu Group D-6 Momo Miyaura, A Letter to Momo vs. Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, Sailor Moon Momo Miyaura. I refer people to this article in ANN reporting that A Letter to Momo won an award for, among other things, the protagonist being forced to face the challenges of growing up. Group D-7 Saji Crossroad, Mobile Suit Gundam 00 vs. Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero Sabre Group D-8 Masakazu Misaki, Time of Eve vs. Tsukimi Kurashita, Princess Jellyfish Masakazu Misaki |
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Galap
Moderator
 Posts: 2354 |
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Let's cast my votes.
D1: Yuu Gotou: While Simon did develop from being childish and unconfident to the leader of the Gurren Brigade, Yuu's development is more subtle and compelling, since he gets past not only his self loathing but also finds external direction. D2: Yuuko Kanoe D3: Porco Rosso D4: Vegeta D5: Suzu: Like I've said previously I always liked character changes in which the character gains emotional stability, because instabilities are often stemming from deep rooted mental fallacies that are almost innate in people. D6: Momo Miyaura: I like the sound of adaptation to a new life, and eventually learning to make friends with new people (I actually really want to see this movie) D7: Saji Crossroad D8: Masakazu Masaki: Biases are very hard to overcome, because as much as people don't like to admit it, a bias is often a good way for a limited mind to consistently come to reasonably accurate conclusions without much information and effort. Unfortunately, it's hard to correct for when the bias is untrue or unfounded, and Masakazu eventually comes to realize this and ultimately see the robots as people. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16963 |
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Sorry I haven't active lately. Work has been crazy. And I see I am now tied for 2nd to last. Damn.....maybe I should just stop checking lol.
Group D-1 Simon, Gurren Lagann Reason: Simon grows from just a little boy into a true hero and someone who doesn't give up. He loses friends and overcomes the losses he goes through. He winds up going from being that little boy underground into the man who humanity depends on. Group D-2 Chagum, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Group D-3 Rue, Princess Tutu Reason: I honestly didn't think Porco would even make it past round 1. I may not think Rue is the strongest competitor here but she easily has more growth as a person and improvement over Porco. She changes almost entirely her demeanor as the series progresses. She grows as a dancer and as a person even more. I don't know if she can compete in the later rounds but she should win this one hands down. Group D-4 Vegeta, Dragonball Z/Kai Reason: Vegeta is just the epitome of improved character. Not much I can elaborate on past what I already said last round. This guy goes from being a simple villain bent on power and control to being a dedicated father and family man. He progressively grows during each of the shows main arcs. He becomes more powerful yet learns to accept Goku is simply the best and more powerful than him. He learns to love Bulma and Trunks and even spoiler[sacrifices himself in an attempt to stop Buu and save the world and his son]. He later comes back and learns to accept Goku is the better fighter and lets go of his hatred. He is the best example in the DB franchise of personal growth and improvement as a character overall. He is one of the best examples in this tournament as well. You may not like DB as a franchise or him personally but you cannot deny his strength in this tournament. [b]Group D-5 Tsume, Wolf’s Rain[/b] Group D-6 Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, Sailor Moon Reason: You can't deny Usagi's growth as a person. While yes she certainly qualifies as annoying and ditsy she learns and grows immensely. Through the course of the various seasons and movies she goes from that ditzy, whiny, irritating child into a true champion. All her friends come to respect her strength, her love, and her compassion. No matter the odds she simply does not give up on herself or her friends or what she believes in. She becomes a devoted mother as well. Momo certainly is a strong competitor but every single thing almost you can say Momo overcame growing up Usagi did as well in some fashion. I cannot help but think though Usagi simply grew up and progressed more overall. She did have a nice long time to do it with the various seasons and movies but that's not the point. The point is in the end I think she grows more as a person frm who she was at the start and who she is at the end. I also think more people were touched and affected in their own right by her progression as a character. Group D-7 Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero Group D-8 Masakazu Misaki, Time of Eve |
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Tris8
Posts: 2114 Location: Where the rain is. |
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Group D-1
Simon, Gurren Lagann vs. Yuu Gotou, Noein – to your other self Yuu is far from weak, but he has come up against one of the best executed improvements in Simon. I really really wish he were up against someone else because he improves a lot, and in a well executed manner. Group D-2 Yuuko Kanoe, Dusk Maiden of Amnesia vs. Chagum, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Yuuko. Key and One-Eye put it best. I nominated Chagum and really like his character, but he's not very strong in this tournament. Chagum starts off naive, but already has all the makings of a leader and shows his adaptability from the beginning. Yuuko on the other hand has been running away from her problems for 60 years. What I love about her improvement is that it isn't just one push. It takes several breakthroughs for her to fully spoiler[embrace Shadow Yuuko]. Group D-3 Porco Rosso, Porco Rosso vs. Rue, Princess Tutu Rue, Princess Tutu Group D-4 Waver Velvet, Fate/Zero vs. Vegeta, Dragonball Z/Kai Vegeta, Dragonball Z/Kai Group D-5 Tsume, Wolf’s Rain vs. Suzu, The Twelve Kingdoms Suzu, Twelve Kingdoms Group D-6 Momo Miyaura, A Letter to Momo vs. Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, Sailor Moon Usagi. I may not like the show but her improvement is undeniable. Group D-7 Saji Crossroad, Mobile Suit Gundam 00 vs. Saber, Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero Saber, Fate/Stay/Zero Group D-8 Masakazu Misaki, Time of Eve vs. Tsukimi Kurashita, Princess Jellyfish[/quote] Tsukimi. Masa is able to get over his bias against androids, but his improvement is on the simple side. Princess Jellyfish ends while Tsukimi still has a ways to go, but her bloom from a shut-in with no self-esteem, to a girl who can take pride in herself and has started to overcome her fears is enough to win her this round. |
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marie-antoinette
Posts: 4136 Location: Ottawa, Canada |
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A little low in votes again at this point but considering we have four incredibly competitive matches at this point (and a few others that are still fairly close), hopefully more people will decide they want a say in things.
Group D-9 Simon, 11 vs. Yuu Gotou, 2 Group D-10 Yuuko Kanoe, 5 vs. Chagum, 8 Group D-11 Porco Rosso, 3 vs. Rue, 10 Group D-12 Waver Velvet, 7 vs. Vegeta, 6 Group D-13 Tsume, 6 vs. Suzu, 7 Group D-14 Momo Miyaura, 6 vs. Usagi Tsukino/Sailor Moon, 7 Group D-15 Saji Crossroad, 2 vs. Saber, 11 Group D-16 Masakazu Misaki, 6 vs. Tsukimi Kurashita, 7 So, this is definitely the most competitive round so far, more so than I expected as there are four rounds with only a one vote difference (interestingly enough for me, three of them have one of my nominees in them). So, here's hoping some Wolf's Rain, Sailor Moon, and Princess Jellyfish fans so up! Particularly the former because, if I could only pick one of these characters to move on, Tsume would definitely be it, due to amazing writing and an arc that has him grow so much. And I agree with things said in earlier rounds that such growth is particularly meaningful given the fact that he is an adult and thus would likely be more resistant to change than someone younger (like, for example, Toboe ... who I think I maybe should have nominated as well, come to think of it). I know people love The Twelve Kingdoms but, IMO, Wolf's Rain is actually the stronger series in almost every aspect, which is probably why I've watched it all the way through a number of times yet have only gotten through the first half of 12K. And Tsume, who starts out as one of the series biggest weaknesses, absolutely becomes one of the biggest strengths. Even if his taste in fashion is ... questionable, at best 
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