Forum - View topicSword Art Online (TV).
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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Honestly ChibiKangaroo I think you need to watch something other than shonen anime if you dislike male chauvinism this much.
I think it's silly that you seem to imply everything needs to fit your preferences, especially in a medium that will very rarely fit them. |
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Polycell
 Posts: 4623 |
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ChibiKangaroo
 Posts: 2941 |
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Umm, no. Some people might think it makes them look 'cool' to respond to substantive points with little snappy attacks on people's preferences, but fortunately you don't get to tell me what I can and can't watch, and you really have no idea what kinds of shows I like or what my preferences are. If you are going to participate in the discussion, you should really argue on the points not simply try to attack me. The fact is, there are plenty of shonen anime which are not filled with male chauvinism. A male chauvinist is defined as: "a male who patronizes, disparages, or otherwise denigrates females in the belief that they are inferior to males and thus deserving of less than equal treatment or benefit." - dictionary.reference.com Most shonen anime are not about denigrating or patronizing females. Most shonen anime instead focus on telling uplifting or inspiring stories about idealized boys. Hunter x Hunter is one of my favorite shows currently running. All of the protagonists are male. There are very few females of note in the cast, but the females who are there are not patronized or made to be inferior. For example, the females in the spider gang are all fierce and ruthless adversaries who are presented in an extremely serious manner. Gon's adopted mother and "granny" are portrayed as serious characters who are well rounded and well developed women. Shonen anime can be all about putting the experience of the idealized boy on a pedestal without making it look like all the females are worthless klutzes who need to be saved. Most of the chauvinistic shows that I have seen coming out of anime are not the traditional shonen action oriented shows but instead the ero/harem/romance stuff. |
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Saffire
 Posts: 1256 Location: Iowa, USA |
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Rhyono
Posts: 1039 |
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I think you're trying to find fault with everything. You're also misinterpreting that. You think he's saying that as a woman, she wouldn't be capable of soloing. It's far more probable that he doesn't want her to die, while he holds far less regard for his own safety. Klein's reaction to the way he solos suggests that it's extremely dangerous.
That should be expected. |
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Megiddo
 Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15545 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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@ Megiddo
There was a part where he left where the guild was, it was a dark area with I think wolf enemies. I think that this is a picture from the scene. |
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Saffire
Posts: 1256 Location: Iowa, USA |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18345 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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ChibiKangaroo, I think part of the problem here is that you're taking the most cynical possible interpretation of what's been going on in the series so far. I won't dispute that the "girl of the week" structure in episodes 3-7 practically invites such interpretations, and that the series is (intentionally or not) giving the impression of harem-building, but each case did have other things going on in it; one involved spoiler[a girl who was nervous about transitioning her role within the group (an insecurity which could easily be applied equally well to a male character), one involved the girl essentially being used as bait, one involved a murder scheme in which the girl was integrally involved, and one involved the girl practically forcing herself into a dangerous situation]. Kirito is able to play the dashing hero because he's simply much higher-level, one of the small number in the game's most advance group, which means that he can make 98% of the game's other participants look weak by comparison.
These stories can be looked at two other ways. One is that this is how Kirito gets his social aspect from the game. Another is that the writers are using these to assemble a foundation of support for when Kirito must lead the charge at the top levels. Right now, I'm more inclined to believe the latter. As for the business with Asuna back in episode 2, what degree of chauvinism is present there? spoiler[Kirito wasn't telling Asuna not to take the solo route because she couldn't hack it, but because she shouldn't. He knew full well that the path that he was about to tread would be a dangerous one, and the Christmas scenes in episode 3 did have some reference to him engaging in risky behavior. Going the path of a solo was a more lonely and dangerous one, so he was trying to convince her to take the more sensible approach rather than trying to tell her that she wasn't good enough to do what he was going to do.] That and other references made throughout the series form a foundation which indicates that Kirito has been working his butt off - and sometimes taking risks - in order to stay on top. Other players (Kleine and Asuna, for instance) not only recognize and respect that but also recognize that someone like Kirito - someone skilled, dedicated, and willing to take risks in an environment where failure can result in death - is probably the best hope for winning the game. I'm also getting rather tired of the Gary Stu references. Kirito just seems that way because he's playing down in many of these scenes, in some cases even way down. The same phenomenon can be seen in similar circumstances in practically any RPG, whether video game or tabletop. Even so, he's shown the capacity to get injured and the need to occasionally need help to defeat foes. He's shown at least some emotional vulnerability, too. SAO does have some issues, but these are not the issues that it has. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Simply being told that Kirito works hard is different from actually showing him working hard.
Show, don't tell. I don't have a major beef with Sword Art Online for making Kirito so powerful without showing us how he became so powerful. But, at the same time I'm not entirely comfortable with it either, and it is an example of sub-optimal writing (to put it one way). It's like if Dragonball Z suddenly skipped to Goku being a Super Saiyan without showing the fight with Frieza up till then. It just seems disconcerting that Kirito can be level forty one episode and level seventy-eight the next with no apparent effort on his part. I repeat; show, don't tell. I am also uncomfortable about him constantly meeting girls and helping them out. As much as I like the cute girls, I am concerned with how the show is progressing. Introducing girls at a rate of one an episode is not the best way (or even a good way) to flesh out both Kirito's character and the setting of SAO. It isn't terrible storytelling, but it is blatant to the point of being distracting. I mean, why doesn't he help out guys? Isn't it strange that in an MMORPG with less than eight thousand players Kirito is constantly running into cute girls and only cute girls? And I say that as a guy whose favourite episode thus far was episode four; that girl was adorable. At this point in time I am perfectly willing to give Sword Art Online further chances to prove itself. I have enjoyed the first seven episodes, and I look forward to when the main plot takes over. But I would have appreciated the show even more if it didn't have all these niggling issues. Last edited by dtm42 on Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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Key, I think one of my issues with your arguments is that you are trying to justify everything based on how the story is written, where my main point is that the writing itself is bad. Of course everything that is happening can be justified within the writing, but I think we should be able to criticize bad writing when we see it. To be clear, I have said more than once that I actually liked episodes 4-6. Like dtm, I actually liked Silica even though she was a girl of the week. She was kind of endearing and the story with her pet was nice. I also liked the murder mystery story. However, that doesn't mean i'm going to just give the writers a pass and forget about all the crappy stuff. I think that is far from me taking the most cynical possible interpretation.
It is this whole theme that you are describing there which is a writing problem for me... i.e. Kirito being the super powered idealized dashing hero juxtaposed against all of these klutzy girls who are tripping over themselves and practically getting themselves killed from inadequacy. Also, most of these weak girls have this strong infatuation with him which he seems oblivious to. It's all just so silly to me. You can justify it all by saying Kirito is in the advanced group and he's a beater and he is higher level than all of them and a cool good looking guy, but all of that was written into the story. Someone wanted to set up these scenarios where Kirito is god mode and these girls are all helpless, klutzy love-stricken damsels. Like I said, its the writing which irks me and I just find it to be very old fashioned in a bad way.
How is all of this NOT Gary Stu? That is my first question. Kirito is the only one skilled, dedicated and willing to take risks enough to be a bad dude? He's the only one who can take this lonely and dangerous path, and he has some sense of authority which allows him to tell Asuna what her limits are and what she can and cannot do? Look, like I said I understand that this is the writing, but again, I am criticizing the writing itself. Kirito is not only extremely idealized, but he seems to realize it. It's like a Gary Stu character realizing that they are in fact a Gary Stu and ordering everyone else to act accordingly and just let him take care of everything.
Again, you are justifying his portrayal based upon the writing. Also, he's not always playing down. The baddies in episodes 2, 5/6 and 7 were all threatening, but all were overcome by him more or less being in control of the situation. The baddies in 3 and 4 were truly examples of him playing down, but those fights didn't really matter much except to establish Kirito as a major bad-ass. In sum, even if it could be rationalized within the context of the writing that Kirito is supposed to be a super bad ass, and he is supposed to be ordering others not to take the dark and lonely path of destruction that only he is bad enough to take, and is supposed to be so cool and dashing that all of the girls fall for him, and is supposed to largely ignore the affections of each of these girls to show how cool of a dude he is, it is still weak writing in my opinion. Like dtm, I still will probably find this show entertaining enough to watch, but right now I am getting kind of tired of the repetitiveness with this simple Kirito saves/helps girl x routine, and like I said earlier the whole patting on the head thing with calling what appears to a mature female a "little girl" was a bit off putting. Last edited by ChibiKangaroo on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Xanas
Posts: 2058 |
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I have no interest in arguing on your points because they aren't interesting. This is one of the most boring discussions I could possibly have. I'm actually conceding your point, because even if it weren't accurate I just don't care. I was just thinking of trying to give you a way to avoid wasting your time. Now you've given me in the latter part of a post a legitimate reason that you watch shonen anime, because some of it does suit your preferences. That's fine, but not my point. My point was that you should drop things that you dislike rather than going on and on about them. Then again, it seems that you like to engage in these discussions a great deal, so perhaps your preference is to complain (which is fine, I just don't understand it myself). I'm not telling you what to do, I'm telling you what I think you should do, but insofar as you seem to like going on about things like this by all means keep watching and complaining. I just won't be engaging you further because it is not something the slightest bet interesting to me. I'm also not attacking you. You can see it that way if you want to, but I'm following my own advice. If something irritates me as much as this seems to irritate you I wouldn't watch it anymore. |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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I think you are really being dishonest saying you are not attacking me right after you declined to discuss my points and instead presumed to tell me I can't watch this type of show and said I was being silly. Now in this post you say i'm just complaining pointlessly, again without making any arguments on the substance of the points raised. That is called attacking the person rather than the arguments. If this whole discussion is so boring and pointless and annoying to you, then why are you even in this forum responding? I always love when people come into a discussion and supposedly waste their time claiming that it is all so pointless and asking why anyone cares enough to respond. It is ridiculous to me. If this whole thing is such a bother to you, then my advice to you would be don't post in the forums. People come here to discuss and critique shows. If that is bothersome and boring to you then your presence in the discussion makes no sense. |
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Veers
 Posts: 1197 Location: Texas |
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Or maybe he wants to like the show and wants to see it be better than it is? I mean, there are flawed shows that can be enjoyed for, or in spite of, being bad because you don't really care or expect them to be better than that, and there are flawed shows that you feel really have the potential to be something better and so you hope they can overcome their flaws. For me, at least, SAO is the latter kind of show at this point. |
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infiltration.cru
 Posts: 321 |
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This whole "If you criticize something then you don't like it and then you should not watch it"- argument is plain BS. Discussing shows- and holy crap, yes, a discussion can also contain criticism- is what this subforum is supposed to be there for. Furthermore, everyone is entitled to watch something, then form an opinion on it and then go discuss it with people who have a different opinion. Whenever this "drop it if you don't like(which is often a wrong assumption) it" comes up it becomes very clear that the person posting it is not actually interested in reflecting over one's personal impression of something, thus entirely missing the point of what a forum is about. Back on topic: I can definitely see where you are coming from, Chibi, although I feel that SAO has not been as offensive in its portrayal of female characters as many other shows. Sure, the girls of the week are- except for Alisa- mostly just cute fluff. Even if they are presented as having some specific skill, these skills are mostly just accessories. Case in point: spoiler[The blacksmith girl(what was her name?) could have been anything else, it wouldn't have changed anything about that character.] |
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