Forum - View topicREVIEW: Gasaraki DVD Complete Collection
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Otaking09
 Posts: 637 |
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Newtypes' spoiler[abilities were most explained in 0079 (and even then that's not really saying much...),] and then, afterwards in subsequent series whether they being related to UC-universe or not, they're just... revered for being "human... but more". It becomes an illogical addition excusing the titular bot to be a godbot. Frankly, (and i know this is gonna piss you off penguintruth but I'm serious) I preferred the vagueness that SEED treated the SEED factor because itspoiler[ only happened to lead characters] which, again as I've noted above spoiler[in spoilers], made the whole phenomena... a literal phenomena; a real uncalculated factor that essentially turned the tide of the war. And it happened because of those "seeds". Taking something like that vs. multiple series milking the Newtype ideal as automatically telling the audience that "spoiler[those characters will never die]", is a Super Robot tactic in of itself; contradictory to a Real Robot scenario.
I'm giving a clearer(?) angle to look at that same question. I told you to forget about Rah, because, I assume, you have other favorites which might rival your affections for it; I don't want you to think that I'm simply bashing Rah (or Modoka) underhandedly. I have a basis for accepting certain logics of shows, particularly honest intentions that aren't/don't cop(ped) out somewhere along the line. On a logical realm, I can completely get where you are coming from with your judgements but I can't shake the feeling that your preferences prevent me from completely understanding you. My problems with RahXephon are... spoiler[well, it's a mess; not unlike how Carl described Xam'd's plot. The characters are too methodical/one-note (not to mention that it has a pretty big cast for the angle it goes for), the symbolic layering to the plotting is too ambiguous (for typical watchers of anime; not a big weakness but who knows how much it'd help interpreting the plot!), the origins and motivations of many characters are way too disorganized and clamped together (Ikuru, Mr. D, and Helena's flashback ep only puzzled me more since, being children then, one would think they'd grow out of it), not to mention that its ending came too fast without any real hinting (to compare with NGE, the character subplots hinted of the continuing madness that followed with each subsequent ep during the end), and the ultimate ending felt too undeserving and too... sweet. As an overall package, RahXephon is one heck of a black box to decipher gleefully. But to experience it episodically? I can't say it was really fun... Not to mention that with each passing episode I felt more confused than anything else. It came off as being ultimately pretentious to me.] Obviously some part I've mentioned above tickled your brain in ways it didn't for me, but maybe I should rephrase my question: Since you haven't really directly disagreed with any of my scenarios, what areas of quality shine the most when they're possibly mired in conventions/formulas that risk shattering any quality surfacing? With Madoka... well, I could simply post this: http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=animeatt&aid=8069 (the #5 review; roriconfan) ...and call it a day, but many plotting elements I've mentioned above for Rah could neatly fit into Madoka too. Take all this curiosity as being a calculus-class problem a fellow connoisseur like yourself could identify with.
Oh, I agree. In fact, I personally wish that they'd have left things as they were in Season 1 because it would've served as a terrific parable. Good thing they didn't suddenly "switch" things at the end of season 1, eh? 
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Alright, so you've just insulted the two best Anime I've ever seen. Some of your criticisms are flat-out wrong, and the person who wrote the 'review' you linked to is no better than the "random fanboys" the user attempts to mock.
So, what to do. I could either rage at you in this thread, which wouldn't go down too well with various people. This thread is about Gasaraki and - tenuously - about what Real Robots are. Or, I could kindly ask that you take your PMMM complaints to the show's discussion thread and start a new thread for RahXephon. Yes, I think I'll do this. I'm happy to debate the merits of both series and what my personal preferences are until the cows come home and you get sick of me, but not here. |
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Otaking09
Posts: 637 |
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@dtm
Well... the idea was to provoke some sort of defensive response; apparently that wasn't done with bringing SEED into the equation so forgive me if my descriptiveness with some of my key issues of both shows were somewhat... explicit. And that guy who wrote that review... well, he's received plenty o' protests for his bluntness. His approach is certainly not going to put happy faces on everyone but it is orderly and he was able to group key points that (mostly) silenced the defenses naysayers bombarded you with. Mind you, this is not how I discuss preference or quality so, unless someone else besides me flies off the wheel, I'll do like so. I thank you in advance though dtm for your forthrightness and will follow your proposition as early as I can. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18424 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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This almost exactly delineates the problems I've always had with that series, but I agree that further discussion on that matter should be reserved for a different thread.
Interesting. He's right on some points (a lot of the elements, if looked at individually, aren't original) but off-base on others (he's putting way too much emphasis on the dependence of the series on shock factor). But again, that's a discussion for one of the established PMMM threads - or the v2 discussion thread when that comes around in April. . . As for Gasaraki and a "switching" approach? That might have been interesting to see done, but there's just not enough story "thousand years past" part to pull something like that off as was done in Otogi Zoshi. It would have required a complete reimagining of the series' concept. |
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TokyoGetter
 Posts: 416 Location: CA. You can tell by the low moral standards. |
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[quote="Otaking09"]
Going into full agreement mode with this. Re: "godbot" Gundams... um... spoiler[I'd buy that as a concept if they didn't get destroyed in pretty much every series. I don't think they're ever painted as "omnipotent" or unbeatable, and the newtype elements made Zeta what it is.] UC Gundam would actually be pretty forgettable without the occasional dips into mysticism. Ditto VOTOMS. Super robots meant fighting goofy aliens and matching jumpsuits; not practical applications of physics as applied to mobile suits, support teams, etc. |
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penguintruth
 Posts: 8499 Location: Penguinopolis |
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Another element of "real robot" is how the robots are treated. In Mobile Suit Gundam, Zeta Gundam, Gundam ZZ, and CCA, the robots are tools. They have mechanics. They are treated like war machines, not heroic in their own right, but a means to an end. They don't have any amazing superpowers on their own and while some of them are more special than the other MS around, they're usually not enough to make a difference on their own.
Gundam is very much real robot, but it does have some super robot tendancies early on. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Yes, there wasn't enough material to make the period piece an entire cour, but that's only to be expected given it was only two episodes long or so. However, I believe that expanding the arc to a cour long would have been fairly straightforward and doable if it had been written as such from the start. And it would not have required a complete re-imagining, because both halves would be similar stories and deliberately so. It's just that one story has feudal lords and shoguns and castles and horses and arrows and monsters, while the other would be modernised with 'old money' families and generals and bunkers and tanks and hellfire missiles and Tactical Armors. Both arcs would have the same theme of star-crossed lovers forced to fight one another in the midst of power struggles or outright war. The Otogi Zoshi route would not be my preferred route; I would rather Gasaraki have simply been made into two unrelated shows. But, if Takahashi had to throw all that mysticism into his Real Robot show because, you know, Evangelion and all that, then giving the mysticism and science their own cours would have been the best way to do it. To keep the attention of Mecha enthusiasts until the second cour rolled around he could have played up the biomechanical Kugai and its abilities. |
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Otaking09
Posts: 637 |
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Yes, he lets his own personal rage become a sort of style when critiquing but he's ultimately correct in how each subsequent episode of the show has no bearing or grounding for whatever happens next; ergo, the "shock" of what comes next is typical for him to just see Madoka as simply being the "Hype Title of the Year". Even though I'm not as incisively direct as him, he certainly fleshed out why I was so confoundedly bored with the show... (I actually had to play solitaire to get through the middle eps) Gasaraki's "switch" wasn't so bombastically "WTF?" because Takahashi ultimately let the "switch" factor be grounded the circumventing ideology that fueled everything the show meant. It certainly wasn't necessary, but it did offer closure (of sorts) to the mystic side of the political grips that affected both timelines. THAT is what ultimately impresses me the most about Gasaraki in how it definitely remains Real Robot and still can justify its angle. Sure, there's no downtime for giving it all the effort it deserved. Sure, it's not as fun to watch as other mecha, and of course it's not something I'd rush out to buy, but it remains an almost flawless example of sticking to its point without getting more weird than it already established from its start. @dtm Momentarily, I'll start a topic in the "General Anime Discussions" section. I'm titling it "RahXephon, Madoka, and Criticism" (yes I love the movie of where I ripped this from  ). I'm also going to throw in a rule of sorts: use only content from the shows (RahXephon's movie can be used to defend the plot [if it does], but that still won't convince me on the show's value in structure). Since I offered you my buddy's tasteful fanfun bash as well as pretty much setting all this up, you may strike first.
Thank you again for your indulging me. Anyone else who wants to place their own stake in this can feel free; just stick to logic, the content that's used, and healthy passion. |
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TokyoGetter
Posts: 416 Location: CA. You can tell by the low moral standards. |
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Dude, you gotta re-watch VOTOMS. That was kind of Takahashi's "bag" way before NGE. |
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belvadeer
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What? 
Boy I'll say. Does he even know any other term besides shock factor? 
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eyeresist
 Posts: 995 Location: a 320x240 resolution igloo (Sydney) |
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Theron's review pretty much agrees with my opinion, though I'm guessing he agonised for a few minutes over the final ratings - these days I'd be inclined more towards a C+ (though admittedly I haven't seen this show for a few years).
I agree the mix was difficult to pull off and ultimately didn't work (though a more grounded final episode really would have helped). However, I can admire the way the series attempted to be an all-encompassing statement about Japan, with the mecha representing issues of foreign policy and the future of the SDF. Maybe if they'd addressed the contradiction of high-tech futurism versus unquestioned spirituality OVERTLY, rather than letting it hang.... But when has an anime ever done that? I gotta say, this thread is a useful refresher course for those of us who are not experts on the whole Real Robot issue
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