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Revision to Fansubber Ethical Code?

1a. At least once a year, a fansubber should justify his or her existence by subbing an obscure or older title.

While ANN had their best intentions with creating a new code of ethics, I personally think that a lot of it is flawed. While it's a nice idea to create a code of ethics for people to adhere to, it really is a pipe dream and with the sort of direct wording presented in the article. Instead, a true guideline should be presented that addresses the international community as well (although I personally deal with the R1 countries).

1. The main purpose of fansubs is to allow English-language fans access to obscure anime they would never see otherwise.

a. At least once a year, a fansubber should justify his or her existence by subbing an obscure or older title.

b. A fansubber does the community no good by duplicating another's work. Therefore, if a fansub of an anime is already available, the fansubber should devote his or her efforts to another series, unless said existing fansub suffers from an excessively bad translation.

The main point is a bit English-centric if you ask me. You can't forget the Norwegian, Spanish, German, French, and etc speakers on the internet who don't get the luxury of speaking English as their primary language for fansubs.

For 1a, while I agree that old series should be subbed, it shouldn't be a means to justify a group's existence. It'd be like forcing anime fans that only rent anime to buy just to justify that they watch anime. Fansubbers aren't only people that bring anime to fans that they wouldn't necessarily see but also people who love a series, new or old, and wish for it to be seen and want to do the work. This leads into 1b.

While the intent is nice, I don't agree that one group should be responsible for bringing a series to fans. Perhaps it's my mistrust of digisub groups in general (since I've been entrenched in it) or the fact that I can understand that some people wish to do a series for the pure joy of working on it. Personally, I don't care if another group is doing it, I don't sub for the leechers of the nameless faces that come in and out but for the people that I'm friends with that don't have the luxury of knowing Japanese. Not only that, but it's a check and balance for me. It's a way of making sure I do my absolute best because the series I do, I adore. It's also a way for me to critique myself when I look back so I know what I did wrong and know what I can improve on.

a. Because of the speed at which new series are picked up, it should be assumed that a new series *will* be picked up. Therefore only the first 4 or 5 episodes should be fansubbed in order to give a taste of the anime. (roughly the same as viewing the first DVD release)

I definitely don't agree with 2a. Isn't it a little pretentious to assume that every new series will be picked up when clearly it hasn't happened? While I'd be glad if I knew it was going to be licensed but then what would be the purpose of fansubbing? Besides, there is no guarantee, I don't see R1 companies picking up a show like Human Scramble (to name a new one) or any of the Yuusha series (to name older ones).

c. Fansubs are not meant to compete with a professional product, therefore the audio/video quality of a fansub should not attempt to match or better the quality of a professional DVD. In fact, a large filesize is a hindrance to the spread of a fansub and thus goes against the purpose of increasing awareness of a title. 175MB per 25-minute episode should be considered a maximum and 140MB a better choice.

I don't agree with 3c. Fansubs aren't meant to compete, they're meant as a measuring stick IMO. While not all fansubbers are right, a lot of the truly good ones put a lot more effort than any domestic company I have ever seen (mind you that I've been subbing for 4+ but I've been watching for 8+) They make sure everything is right and try to keep the show as intact as possible. I've seen more than a few poorly done domestic releases here in the US and that shouldn't be happening. They're supposed to be professional products yet the final outcome doesn't come out as so. Instead, you have fansubbers doing a better job than the people that get paid to do it and the fansubbers do this for the love of the hobby, not to forget to mention free. In some regards, this helps domestic companies because loud-mouthed fans will speak up on occasion when a company does a bad job. While those are few and far between, it can be a loud message to companies who have gotten quite lazy.

4a. Do not fansub an American-produced anime. Even if the company didn't officially announce a "license" or a release date, we know it's going to come to the US.

Uh, how are we supposed to know if an anime is American-produced unless stated so? Quite an annoying point that's a bit moot unless we have the information right off the bat. You want people to not sub American-produced material? Say that you put money into it and are going to release it as soon as the actual show is announced because with that info, it's up for grabs.

Now, 6c assumes subbers charge people money which isn't the case. Almost all that I know of ask for donations or sponsors to help fund a series which was a common practice during the trad subbing days. There frankly isn't anything wrong with it unless the group overcharges because these people are willing to help pay for a series or etc. Asking is very different from demanding. I could go on about this but I won't unless someone has something to say about it.

Lastly, regarding 6a. I don't agree with it. Mainly because a lot of us do put a lot of hard work into it and we like to be at least recognized for it. It's a bit of an ego boost but it's harmless unless it gets really in the way like overtly fancy subtitles.

While the internal flak is much needed, digisubbers don't need people who really don't understand what it means to be a subber or have not been one. It's one of those cases that experience really brings a big difference in viewpoint. While I dislike the community, I will adamantly defend the good groups from people who think they know more about this than we do.

"In order to make this code of ethics more international, it would require the input of international fans."

Or else come clean and admit that you're simply there to provide an outlet for the cheap and impatient to get their free anime.

Yes, I too think it's sort of a pipe dream. But as you said yourself, I think it's a nice idea and therefore deserves at least to be explored. And if the wording isn't to your satisfaction, then why don't you suggest an alternate wording?

Well, this is a english-language website and the article is written in english, so I think it's normal to be english-centric. What is not so normal is that the article is too North-America-centric. I acknowledge this but I don't think I could have written it any differently since I'm from Canada, so I'm not familiar with the issues that oversea fans might have. In order to make this code of ethics more international, it would require the input of international fans.

This is all true, but I just wish there were more fansubbers that loved old series. Like I said previously, this isn't about FORCING anyone. There isn't any way to force a fansubber to do a project he has no interest in. But I do think it's worthwhile to ENCOURAGE older series. Just encourage people to look at older stuff and maybe they'll realize there's a few hidden gems still left.

Well, you got me there! But still, if you see a series that's already fansubbed, wouldn't you rather pass it on to your friends rather than go through all the work of fansubbing it yourself?

I agree 2a was sort of a stretch. But that was part of the point. As is said in the article, the guidelines were made much more stringent than the unwritten ethics. The idea is to push for ultra-ethical fansubs. The reasoning behind 2a is that many *many* fansubbers go for the ultra-cool series that you just know are going to be picked up by the US companies. Wolf's Rain, Last Exile, Scrapped Princess, .hack, Full Metal Panic... it's OBVIOUS those were going to or will be licensed. And for those that don't get licensed, waiting until the end of the series isn't that bad. Well, like I said, it's a stretch. It's not for nothing that I called this a "holy grail" of ethical fansubbing (in the sense that it's almost impossible to respect *all* of the rules)

It seems you were mostly talking about translation quality. 3c is about audio/video. While I agree with all of your points, it seems to me that trying to match DVD quality in fansubs is just an excuse to say "I don't need the DVD since the fansub has the same quality".

Well OF COURSE you can't respect 4a is you don't know it's American-produced. But honestly, how many companies actively hide their involvment? With the tiniest bit of research, you should be able to know if a US company funded an anime. How many people subbed Ninja Scroll, and yet it was no secret that it was funded by Urban Vision.

No, 6c doesn't "assume" anything. I'm very well aware that most fansubbers already respect this unwritten rule, and that's why it's in the article.

It's really an ego boost to see a nick that could be anyone's in the credits? Well, to say the truth, 6a was prompted by a bunch of recent fansubs where they seem to put more effort on the credits than on the show itself. Credits that pulse, fade and glow, displayed as if they were a translation of the real credits (as if the fansubber any anywhere near the kind of merit that the original creators did). Credits that really draw attention to themselves and blot out the opening animation. There's a difference between ego and over-inflated ego.

I don't think I know more about fansubbing than you, but I don't need to have made fansubs in order to know about fansub ethics. You think you somehow have more right to talk about this than the rest of us? That having made fansubs somehow makes you "better"? Well, see my previous point about independant viewpoints.

In fact, increasing the number of foreign-language fansubs would be a good thing, because it allows fansub groups to re-do titles that previously were considered "fansubbed". Now you can go back and re-master Marmalade Boy in Finnish, because there is no announced license for Finland. Heck, sub something in Latin and revive the dead language.

As such, fansubbers should not be doing 800x600 hq encodes of series. Likewise, anime companies shouldn't be making DVDs that look like Wings of Honneamise, regardless if it's an issue with the video master or with the video encode

Traditional fansubbing is all but dead, so I'll ignore it as well.

Check the credits; if there's an English name you can probably google for it. "Henry Goto" "anime" will turn up results linking him to Pioneer.

Dallas Operator 7G simply used his pseudonym, and put it at the end of the series, not over any Japanese staff member's name.

Other old groups such as PSSFS (a university SF/anime club) went as far as translating the staff member's names for some of their internal releases.

Also, a number of older groups used to put their logo at the beginning of the tape as identification, rather than put their names in the opening credits.

I think this is, once again, what Dan is referring to, although I'll let him defend it better on his own time.

No, I think I'm as qualified as you to discuss how fansubs have evolved over the years, because I've spent 5 years talking to the old fansubbers, listening to their thoughts and feelings on the matter. 5 years of sitting in an IRC channel with some of the biggest names in the fansub industry does that to you; you hear about when they started, about how they felt about certain distributors, other groups, the increasing speed of translations and everything else.

Also, the fact that I myself never I never put a VHS tape into a VCR and digitized the film, or used SSA, or bought a GenLock or timed a tape via a timer bar doesn't mean anything. I don't own an Amiga and I've never needed to use Flask... but I do know the technology and what goes into the process. While it's not entirely fansub related, I _AM_ translating several novels from Japanese into English, most notably the original Record of Lodoss War novels. They aren't intended for public distribution, and you know what? That suits me just fine. I'm still _CREATING_ a product the exact same way a quality fansubber creates a fansub.. slowly, making sure my work is correct, doing what I can when I can.

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Traditional fansubbing is all but dead, so I'll ignore it as well.

The traditional fansubbers aren’t on the hot seat as digisubbers, but the ones who are left, have move to DVD-R. Anyway, that’s another topic.

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Indeed, that was part of the point of this code of ethics; that there was no fansubber involved. Think about it: asking a fansubber to define his own code of conduct would be like asking the movie industry to define what is right for children to see. OF COURSE they would define the standard as loosely as possible in order to reach as wide an audience as possible. I'm sorry, but even if it's subconsciously, being a fansubber will make you soft and more inclined toward easyness/practicality than ethics. And the idea here was not to create an easy code but to create an ultra-ethical one.

Oh? So why would industry people and newbie fans define what fansubber ethics should be? That's like George Bush Jr. writing an article about how to survive in poverty but never been in poverty himself.

You think ethical fansubbers would be soft? Uh... Okay...

[quote=ANN Article]

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1a. At least once a year, a fansubber should justify his or her existence by subbing an obscure or older title.

[quote=aceleader]

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WTF? You mean to tell us we have to sub something we're not interested in? I have to justify my own personal existence?!

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There, see? You choose the easier road rather than stay true to the real purpose of fansubs. I agree that the wording "justify his or her existence" was perhaps a bit strong, but the idea is there: if you claim not to be one of those l33t day-0 fansub kidz, prove it by subbing an older series.

That's not taking the easy road that's refusing to listen to BS. Many fansubbers have and still fansub older titles. We don't have to prove anything to anyone but our ownselves.

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First of all, the ethical guidelines only apply to distribution; if you love subbing modern anime, go for it.. but if you're going to distribute it, you should also show your fans that there's more to anime than just the latest thing in Japan.

[Quote=Ghost]

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The author said “fansubber” not distribution, in which there’s a difference. No one should justify their existence to anyone subbing an obscure or older title. Like always, if you want to know about a particular series or subber, just look on the fansubber database.

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Oh for the love of God grow up. Stop nitpicking at words. If you only fansub and don't distribute (basically, if you're doing this for you and your friends), for all intents and purposes you might as well not exist. You're not even a blip on the radar screen of fansubs. If you read the article, it should be OBVIOUS that this is about *visible* fansubbers, those that distribute their anime.

Wait a second! Let me tell you something fanboy, don’t even speak to me like that unless you want to be flamed! Even though, we’re in disagreement, show me the respect that I’m showing you.

When you write an article on ethics in fansubs that’s flammatory, it should be OBVIOUS to have it reviewed, analyzed and discussed.

[Quote=Ghost]
I do know a fansubber who’s subbing Chibi Maruko-chan. Moreover, you have to consider that several old series are out of print and very difficult to obtain.

There, see? You choose the easier road rather than stay true to the real purpose of fansubs. Just because it's difficult to obtain it means it shouldn't be fansubbed? On the contrary I believe that, unlike subbing a title that any dozen groups can do, there is a LOT of merit in fansubbing something that fandom would never be aware of otherwise.

this list fails to list all the domestic licenses... but there's still QUITE a few series that one can see have either never been subtitled, or were only partially subtitled by groups.

There are plenty of high-quality titles that simply have little chance to be released in the States due to their age. NG Lamune is one of the older series I enjoyed watching years ago, and I was very happy to see it again being fansubbed.

The list also fails to list ALL unlicensed anime.

So? What's your point? You can still see there's a helluva lot un-licensed un-fansubbed anime. And there's even MORE un-fansubbed anime since, as you put it, the list fails to list all unlicensed anime.

Again, easier said than done. Since the Japanese manufactures stop making LDs’ and several old titles that were originally VHS are out of print

There, see? You choose the easier road rather than stay true to the real purpose of fansubs. (man, I'm never gonna get tired of cut-n-pasting that sentence). I agree with aceleader that there's no point in fansubbing something you don't like. But I'm sure there are older series that haven't been fansubbed and that are worth it. And if they're worth it, shouldn't they be brought to the attention of fandom? Isn't that the point of fansubs?

The fansub viewing, even for the 20,000 weekly downloads of Naruto, is still just a fraction of actual anime fandom.

Exactly. That’s why I find that article pure fantasy and amusing.

It's not because fansubs watchers are a minority that it absolves them from being ethical about it. I fail to see any connection.

There were only a few fansubbers who did that sort of thing back in the day.

Then that means it's not a problem if we put it in the code right?

No, you’re dictating an unrealistic view on how ALL fansubbers should conduct themselves.

We're not dictating, we're *suggesting*. We're hoping against all hope that someone might agree that ethics are a good thing. That minimizing the impact of fansubs on the industry is a good thing. That fansubbing a more diverse array of anime is a good thing. Is that really too much to understand?

That’s the reason why this person responded in that fashion. A matter of fact, I think even “ethical” fansubbers would have a problem with that article. I know it was aimed at Digisubbers but it affects ALL of us, especially the one regarding the fansubbers’ credits. What a joke… That article is anything but neutral. Credits are the only thing that makes a fansubber proud. Not to mention, if their work is viewed publicly at cons or anime clubs.

Credits are the only thing that makes a fansubber proud? Please tell me that's a bad joke. If even ethical fansubbers care only for their ego, we're in sad straits indeed. And here I thought that making an anime you love available to the public is what should make a fansubber proud. Isn't it enough to put the name and URL of the fansubber in there? What's the point of adding credits like "translator: AvnGor666" and "timesetter: haxx0r_dud3"? So they can see their own nick and gloat? Maybe I'm just weird, but just knowing a fansub was made by me would be enough for my pride.

Well, I agree there's a problem with the distribution of scripts: any script kiddie (literally) could take it and slap together a fansub with his name on it. But on the other hand, it would be great if people could buy the R2 DVD and then watch it with the subtitle script overlaid on the screen. I'm not quite sure how to reconcile those two points.

In all fairness, I understand the problem with AnimeJunkies and other digisub download sites, there is a cause for concern. This is where the commercial companies should intervine. However, promoting censorship will only alienate oldschool fans/fansubbers alike.

This isn't about cencorship, it's about ethics. We're not asking anyone to stop producing fansubs, we're just asking to do it in a way that's more mindful of the industry that creates those anime in the first place.

You give me some old titles(and I don't mean just tell me the title, actually find out where to obtain it with my cash allowance), and if I find them sufficiently interesting to spend my x numbers of hours per week watching and working on it, I'll do it for the 'love of the anime' as you people at ANN so succinctly put. But I'm sure as hell not going to do it to prove my existance to you.

if you claim not to be one of those l33t day-0 fansub kidz, prove it by subbing an older series.

I'm also wondering why there is a slow but continual distinction between 'fansubbing' and 'digital subbing'. Why is 'Traditional fansubbing is all but dead' as Cookie said. So if the medium of subbing has changed, why do the 'oldschool' have to hate the 'current'? If you don't, then why is the distinction even there? Forgive me if I'm obviously not seeing the rational between this distinction, but certainly do not assume because I was never part of the VHS mode of fansubbing, I'm not a 'fansubber' and begin treating me as such. There seems to be this little thought floating around that if you haven't touched a VHS, you've 'never really been a fansubber'. We're already being put into a bad light with such phrases as "Indeed, that was part of the point of this code of ethics; that there was no fansubber involved." and "being a fansubber will make you soft and more inclined toward easyness/practicality than ethics". This is all well and good that you think so. Like Shouta said about war, I think noone should be killing other people (no sarcasm intended either). But if you talk to the people you consider 'l33t day-0 fansub kidz', you'll find that we don't have the 'easy code' that you think we do. And unfortunately, for us, I think if you do compare them to your ideas of what fansubbing should be, you'll end up dismissing it as an easy code just because we are digital fansubbers.

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I'm also wondering why there is a slow but continual distinction between 'fansubbing' and 'digital subbing'. Why is 'Traditional fansubbing is all but dead' as Cookie said. So if the medium of subbing has changed, why do the 'oldschool' have to hate the 'current'? If you don't, then why is the distinction even there? Forgive me if I'm obviously not seeing the rational between this distinction, but certainly do not assume because I was never part of the VHS mode of fansubbing, I'm not a 'fansubber' and begin treating me as such. There seems to be this little thought floating around that if you haven't touched a VHS, you've 'never really been a fansubber'. We're already being put into a bad light with such phrases as "Indeed, that was part of the point of this code of ethics; that there was no fansubber involved." and "being a fansubber will make you soft and more inclined toward easyness/practicality than ethics". This is all well and good that you think so. Like Shouta said about war, I think noone should be killing other people (no sarcasm intended either). But if you talk to the people you consider 'l33t day-0 fansub kidz', you'll find that we don't have the 'easy code' that you think we do. And unfortunately, for us, I think if you do compare them to your ideas of what fansubbing should be, you'll end up dismissing it as an easy code just because we are digital fansubbers.

I personally make quite a distinction (being on the tail end of traditional subbing and heading into digital subbing). There are very different methods and ideologies between the two that essentially separate them. The trad subbers are quite a different breed than most digisubbers. They're quite a bit more concerned with quality of work, correctness, and etc in comparison to most digisubbers. It costed them money to produce fansubs like they did (quite a bit more than most of us spend in the long run) and as such, they're quite a bit more patient. There was also the stronger prescence of wanting to find series that doesn't get attention. They did sub the latest and greatest anime from Japan but the emphasis wasn't quite the same as digisubbers whom only focus on that most of the time. It was also a much simpler time in terms of work. Nothing flashy or fancy, just enough for people to see these shows and keep it from being obtrusive.

That's a big difference with the average fansub group. Most of these groups are intent on doing new series and putting it out as fast as possible. As such, quality of work has gone down on the whole. There's also a huge emphasis on outdoing each other and compeition. As a result, we have groups like AJ who don't care about the anime but the leechers they get. A majority of the larger groups of like that and I can name only a true handful of groups that aren't like that. Hell the dependency on Chinese and Korean scripts has shot up because of the lack of patience in finding a real translator to do the work. There's a whole slew of other problems but I think you know ace. Besides, it'd take me more time to properly explain it all since I'd have to contemplate and synthesize a better explanation.

I'm also wondering why there is a slow but continual distinction between 'fansubbing' and 'digital subbing'. Why is 'Traditional fansubbing is all but dead' as Cookie said. So if the medium of subbing has changed, why do the 'oldschool' have to hate the 'current'? If you don't, then why is the distinction even there? Forgive me if I'm obviously not seeing the rational between this distinction, but certainly do not assume because I was never part of the VHS mode of fansubbing, I'm not a 'fansubber' and begin treating me as such. There seems to be this little thought floating around that if you haven't touched a VHS, you've 'never really been a fansubber'. We're already being put into a bad light with such phrases as "Indeed, that was part of the point of this code of ethics; that there was no fansubber involved." and "being a fansubber will make you soft and more inclined toward easyness/practicality than ethics". This is all well and good that you think so. Like Shouta said about war, I think noone should be killing other people (no sarcasm intended either). But if you talk to the people you consider 'l33t day-0 fansub kidz', you'll find that we don't have the 'easy code' that you think we do. And unfortunately, for us, I think if you do compare them to your ideas of what fansubbing should be, you'll end up dismissing it as an easy code just because we are digital fansubbers.
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The main purpose of fansubs is to allow English-language fans access to obscure anime they would never see otherwise.

At least once a year, a fansubber should justify his or her existence by subbing an obscure or older title.

A fansubber does the community no good by duplicating another's work.

Therefore, if a fansub of an anime is already available, the fansubber should devote his or her efforts to another series, unless said existing fansub suffers from an excessively bad translation.

Fansubs are not to be considered a substitute for owning a legal, English-language copy.

Do not distribute an American-licensed anime. Distribution must stop the instant a license is announced. Any distribution after that point gives the licensee legal cause to pursue the fansubber.

Fansubs are not meant to compete with a professional product, therefore perfection should not be considered a goal. Small improvements in video quality or translation should not be considered justification to create another competing fansub.

Fansubs are not meant to compete with a professional product, therefore the audio/video quality of a fansub should not attempt to match or better the quality of a professional DVD. In fact, a large filesize is a hindrance to the spread of a fansub and thus goes against the purpose of increasing awareness of a title. 175MB per 25-minute episode should be considered a maximum and 140MB a better choice.

Do not fansub an American-produced anime. Even if the company didn't officially announce a "license" or a release date, we know it's going to come to the US.

You make fansubs voluntarily, out of your own free time, because you are a fan. Never for personal profit or recognition. If at any time you feel you should be compensated for the work you've done then you're probably doing this for all the wrong reasons.