Forum - View topicNEWS: Canadian Arrested for Importing Loli-porn Manga
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hkrok76
 Posts: 118 |
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It's going to get worse, before it gets better.
In the end, the people who are trying to help will get carried away. It happens a lot. There are also the cases in which someone in power is concentrating more on staying in power than anything else...as was the case of the comstock laws and the McCarthy trials. I'm all for helping children, even if that means it will get a bit tougher for lolicon fans... To get the people who actually do hurt real children, some "innocents" (although many of you people condemn the lolicon fans anyway) will get hurt as well. Still, if you look at it from a logical point of view, out of all child molestors, some are lolicon fans, but not all lolicon fans are child molestors. So to say that any given lolicon fan is a child molestor is actually invalid. If you disagree with me and think that all lolicon fans are child molestors, then I really have nothing to say to you. We have a difference in our fundamental beliefs, and thus, we can't really argue. Well, not meaningfully. We can bicker back and forth, but I'm tired of this topic, so that would just be a waste of energy. In the end, it comes down to morals, mine and yours, and a person's will power. I don't think my morals are superior to anyones, just different. I definitely don't believe that anyone else's morals are superior to mine. I know what's right and wrong, and I know what should and shouldn't be done. This may be different from what you know. Whether I always do right is a different question. What I believe is that lolicon isn't wrong, but destroying a child's innocence is unquestionably wrong. So how can I believe that both are true? Because that's what I believe. (Sure, it might sound like circular logic, but belief is just that, belief. You can have some evidence, but if you have evidence that makes something unconditionally true, than it's just a belief.) Lolicon doesn't hurt anyone any more than other fictional forms of sexual entertainment. It's as harmful as a erotic novel. Some may say that erotic novels are very harmful and should be banned, that's fine. Differences in beliefs. I believe that exploitation, physical abuse and/or mental abuse of any person, be it a new born or someone dying from old age is wrong. Yet, a person can know something is wrong and still do it. That is a flaw in human beings. We're not perfect. We shouldn't be expected to be perfect, but in order to protect other people, and our way of life, we need to punish those that disrupt the course. Murderers, rapists, child molestors, and thieves to name a few, disrupt the course. They should be punished. BUT. People who look at lolicon, but don't commit crimes that disrupt the course, should not be punished. If a person that looks at lolicon does commit a crime that disrupts the course, then by all means, arrest him, send him to prison, hang him, it doesn't matter, he's actually done something wrong. Many people would like to think that preemptively striking him would have been the best course of action, but that means you'd have to preemptively strike everyone.....innocents will be hurt, but atleast we get the real criminals, right? What if they haven't committed a real crime yet....they would eventually right? Every single one of them? It'll get worse. The Salem Witch Trials, the McCarthy era, the Comstock laws. Yep, we got rid of all those witches, commies, and degenerate perverts, didn't we......we got rid of a lot of innocent people as well. All for the betterment of the community right? It's going to get sooo much worse....but hopefully, it'll get better. edit: went back and read some posts from the previous page...holy crap. I'm going to write this, even knowing that our fundamental beliefs are different, because it's something I haven't actually addressed yet, and I am not sick of this one...yet. Can you imagine what kind of sexually repressed society we would live in if all porn was banned?! Just the thought of it makes me feel uneasy....why don't we ban books while we're at it...I hear those influence people, they might influence them to do bad things. Movies too. There's no real point for those, right? Movies and books, who needs those? Except educational films! So fun! I don't care what experiences you've been through, or what people you know have gone through, I'm going to be callous, because I don't know you, I don't care about you, but you need to come to a realization. The world does not revolve around you. It doesn't revolve around you like it doesn't revolve around me. Porn is entertainment. Entertainment is important. If we didn't have it, we'd be a)doing something constructive, like watch paint dry so we could put on the second coat and watch paint dry some more or b)finding something to entertain ourselves. Deviants are deviants. They're the minority. There are deviants in deviant cultures too. You can't punish everyone with a certain interest, no matter what that interest, because of the deviants. You can't say porn has no reason, it does. It let's us get our jollies off. If you want to ban porn, you better have an alternative to get our jollies off with! I doubt you have one you'd be willing to "donate" though. So I won't ask you to. You have to look at the reason for something, instead of what you think of it. You might not like something, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have a reason. I hate watching sports, but there's a reason for it. I might not agree with the reason, or think it's a good reason, but it's there. I hate nascar, pro football, pro baseball, and pro basketball. If you think about it, they have as much reason to exist as porn does. Sports should be participated in, but there are all these spectator sports, why? People like watching it. Is there a bigger reason than that? Not really. So what's the reason for porn...people like watching it. "But porn causes people to hurt others!" Says you! So does sports! Have you heard about those soccer fans that trample each other? People can be psycho about anything. You don't like the shoes I wear? I don't like you! Bam, I hit you with a baseball bat repeatedly. That would make me a deviant. Normal people would not do that. Do you see where I am getting at? You can't ban shoes, or baseball bats because of what someone does with it. You can't ban baseball because the guy was a baseball fan as well as a deviant. A + A does not equal cow. He likes baseball + he used baseball bat to kill someone = baseball should be banned! Th..that..that's retarded! So. He watches porn + he sexually assualted someone = porn should be banned! Same answer as before. Th..that's..you get the idea. Imagine if someone wanted to ban something you really really like because it might cause people to do bad things, but there is no real hard evidence of that. We're always willing to sacrifice someone else's joys and hobbies. Man...if I offended you, consider yourself offended. Remember, it's only a forum. |
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mwebmistress
 Posts: 9 |
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Of course you'd EXPECT that but if you really think that, then you might wanna do some more research on what goes behind the scenes of porn.
e_e I thought by now that I'd made it obviously clear that what I'm saying isn't just "guessing", and that I know from personal experience that porn and hentai can lead to those behaviors. Think twice before calling me naive please. So, I'm going to stop beating around the bush and just explain what happened. Yes, I was molested by a porn addict when I was younger. We were childhood friends (although he was a few years older), and he'd been doing things like that from the time I was 8 till I was about 14. Recently, he's made the confession that if it hadn't been for porn, he wouldn't have even considered doing such things, and now that he's stopped looking at it, he's no longer the person he once was. I'm really sick of the "that's not what made him do it" crap. You can't tell me it's not, because not only do you not know him or me, he made the confession that that's what it was, and he's no longer like that. I know what drove him to look at porn (he's confessed that to me also), but it's really no one's business, and I won't explain what happened.
Unfortunately, I do know this. But what most people don't know is the harmful effects it has on others, and the people involved. I research this stuff, so I do know.
I'm going to ask this again. Do you know what it's like to be raped or molested? I'm guessing not, since saying something like "protecting people's rights to have porn is more important than preventing someone being traumatized from being raped or molested" is being very selfish and insensitive. Porn is completely selfish, it serves only the purpose of self gratification.
Most people have a good idea what the difference between right and wrong is, and no one is going to make a law protecting something that is more than obviously wrong. I'm surprised that was even brought up...e_e Also, if you think you need porn to survive in society and have sexual feelings, then you're addicted and need help....O_o;; We have sexualy feelings naturally...we don't need porn..O_o;; Anyway, I'm not going to say anything more on this topic. I'm just going to keep getting replies that seem pointless and invalid, and that I've explained several times already. Last edited by mwebmistress on Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bigbigtruck
Posts: 12 |
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You know, I don't think I've ever seen so many people posting in defense of child porn and pedophelia. Does anyone else find this frightening?
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s_j
Posts: 162 |
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Hardly. Is defending Grand Theft Auto, defending murder? Is defending rap music, defending violence against women? Defending the KKK's right to march, defending racism? This doesn't frighten me...what does though, is the thought that so many people are seemingly so ready and willing to give up rights, *as long as they do not find themselves in the minority*, based on transparent appeals to emotion and a dash of hysteria. |
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor
 Posts: 9902 Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC |
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S_J summerized it perfectly. Looks like giving a link of Martin Niemöller's famous quotation is not enough. Allow me to repost it here:
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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There is only two ways he could have gotten hold of such material at that age. One is an irresponsible family member. The other is from someone who was close to that boy like a school mate who had access to it, or some other adult with the same access and exposing him to it. If you were 8 when he first started this and he was "a few years older" I'll guess he had to be at the least 11, or 12. Right on the threshold of puberty when most boys start seeing girls other than pesky nuisances to be chased away, or hide from. Either way it sounds like no one was keeping much tabs on what he was getting up to, or he is a master of persuasion, or both. If you let him get away with that for those 6 years, and now he's confessing "the dirty pictures made me do it", then I'm sorry luv but anyone with common sense can see he's quite good at it and your still in danger of a relapse if he's still your "friend" and in contact.  Am I completely wrong?
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penguintruth
 Posts: 8461 Location: Penguinopolis |
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mwebmistress, it's unfortunate you were molested as a child by a sick person, but just because he "confessed" it was due to a pornography addiction, doesn't mean it was. A person can't be policed by their thoughts or desires, and they shouldn't. It's wrong. That person obviously took an action which was immoral and unlawful, and clearly driven by their desires, but desires are just thoughts, and until they manifest, cannot be judged as guilty or wrong.
In fact, your replies have been pointless and invalid due to your clouded personal prospective. You clearly aren't able to think from a logical prospective in this debate, so it's good that you've excused yourself from it. And I know, I seem insensitive, but you all know I'm right. |
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spider-moose
 Posts: 137 Location: Ontario, Canada |
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all this makes me want to watch Mainority Report again with Tom Cruise
which basically does bring this up they arrest people for the thought of intent to but haven't actually done it yet |
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Doddler
Posts: 20 |
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Abuse happens in every workplace, every field of work, and laws exist to protect those involved. Yes, porn is considered work for those involved with its production, and like everyone else labor laws cover them too. Sure, I bet some bad stuff happens in the porn industry, but you know, bad stuff happens in alot of workplaces. Laws exist against this already, if they came forward, the people involved would get thier just dues. And just because I enjoy porn doesn't make me any less of a person, and I don't personally feel as though I've been harmed. I'm not saying its not possible to be influenced by porn, there are, and have been people who committed crimes based on it, but its very rare. Its just like crimes have been committed by people heavily influenced by MMORPG's, violent video games, sometimes even TV shows as low as Pokemon and Power Rangers. The media may love to scapegoat reasons for a persons behavior, but laws of society don't. If YOU commit a crime, its YOUR fault, not the fault of what ever media you've been consuming.
Sure, porn serves the purpose of self gratification. I'll buy that. But god help us if you want to ban the primary outlet for relief and self gratification for millions of people. Sexual desire isn't something that *poof* up and dissapears, you know?
That is definately right, no one wil argue a law that directly protects people from harm. Most people have a good handle on what they're doing, and don't need to be controlled. But I think the point of the original quote was that why would you ban porn when a very minor percentage of porn consumers commit sex crimes? Sex crimes themselves are very illegal, if a man is willing to break the law for his desires, then outlawing porn isn't going to make this man much better. You simply hurt the mainstream people who enjoy it.
You don't need porn to have sexual feelings, you use porn to relieve those.
A shame, I don't think your replies are pointless and invalid. They are definately a valid point of view. I may not agree with it, but I see where you're coming from. |
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bigbigtruck
Posts: 12 |
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Interesting point, and a good one at that. Where does one draw the line between "not banning pornography" and saying, "hey, it's A-OK that you want to have sex with children"? The power dynamic (physical, social, mental) between adults and children is so uneven that I just don't understand how anyone could tolerate this behaviour. |
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s_j
Posts: 162 |
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I think someone has already addressed this earlier in the thread, and quite elegantly I might add. The distinction between porn, including simulated porn like ero manga, is that of fantasy and action. There is no gray area here...a person who rapes women or children, or murder, or assault, that person should be punished for his actions, and dealt with to the full extent of the law. Having a fantasy (or catering to those fantasies) in your home, no matter how nasty and inhuman, is a completely private ordeal. The line is quite clear. Sale of porn is regulated, as it should be, but not banned from the hands of adults who willingly want to purchase it. Child porn is illegal only because the very production directly entails abuse, and those who consume it are creating the demand for that abuse. The key here is that this is *always* true of real child porn, that its very production requires an illegal act. That is just not so with lolicon manga. |
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Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
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Well, if the pervert choosed to blame an outside source for his personal problems rather than blaming himself then I suppose we'll just have to believe him. There's no way that he was actually responsible for his own actions and merely wants to pass the buck to something else.
I'm going to assume you're a girl here. It;s very different for a girl. If a girl wants sex, she can get sex, no problem, 100% concentual, and in less time than it'd take to order a pizza, depending on how choosy she is. For a guy, it's not always an available option, sometimes even within a stable relationship it's not always an option, so porn is just a more available option.
I don't recall seeing anyone defending child porn in this thread, only lolicon, and porn in general. Child porn is a different mattrer entirely, because it's production involves innapropriate sexual behavior with ACTUAL children. |
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chicogrande
 Posts: 190 Location: Huntsville, Alabama |
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[quote="Isaaru"]
If anything, the anime industry in the US has to watch out when the media makes these sort of descriptions about what anime is. In my view, currently, anime in the US enjoys a fairly clean image. Today, the variety of material and amount of exposure that it has enjoyed in the mainstream media has been generally positive. And, to me, even though during the 90's, the early stages of the anime business in the US, distributors sold a lot of sexually explicit "adult" material alongside their other releases, any stigma about anime being only sex and violence seems to have diluted some. Surely, there are "adult" titles being sold in DVD and print form today; But, in my admitedly limited view, they are hardly the bulk of the revenue generating wave that graces the Japanese animation import business in america today. If anything, and I am making a snap personal statement here, the US distributors have been very smart in staying away from the more (I'd say) worrisome segments of the popular culture industry of Japan. The lolita complex and, don't forget, the shota complex and mother complex segments, could land an american in legal and/or social trouble. I don't know how the Japanese public perceives them and the government legislates them, but in my view, they are simply an easy way for an enthusiastic american journalist to start some poor Joe Anime_Fan down the slope of social condemnation and ridicule on the media stage. Irregardles of any 1st amendment arguments that could be made in their favor, their subject matter is irrevocably social suicide. |
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ShellBullet
 Posts: 1051 Location: I hit things, with my fist. |
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This is officially my last post on this thread. I have already said everything I could say, and if I were to continue I would just be repeating myself. I am really surprised that Tempest let this one go on for so long.
No one is proposing that consumers of loliporn should be treated as if they actually comitted the act of child molestation. There is no way the law should be so harsh! The argument is that such people should have the material removed and face a few light sanctions, nothing more.
This is something on which we simply will not agree. From my understanding of human nature, the "might inhibit" is not a viable opinion, yet you think it is. So there, we disagree. Clearly, my intuition on the matter is not good enough for you (nor should it be) perhaps as you get older you will come to understand that I was right in at least this regard. I wonder if one day the "proof" that you are looking for that there is a connection between loliporn and pedophilia presents itself, will you change your mind? I am willing to let poeple who have studied this issue far more than I judge in such matters. I am not a member of congress or any law making body and, as far as I know, neither are you. So neither of us are in a position to force our ideas on anyone. My only goal was to show that an argument could be made for such material being illegal, and hopefully I showed that.
It is not "our opinion," it is the only opinion that has any merit! To say that something so obviously wrong might be OK is moral relativism taken to the extreme. The distance between extreme relativism and hedonism is not all that far, you know. I could say more, but I'll leave it at that as it's getting really OT.
On a side note, that's what traffic school is all about, so that there won't be any points on my record. I know people that tried to contest such things and failed. The law is clear, you must stop at a stop sign. Saying "You must stop unless you really, really feel it's safe not too" would never work! |
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Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10425 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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MWebmistress, please bare with me as I play devil's advocate. No, I'm not going to suggest "that's not what made him do it," I know nothing about him or the situation, while you obviously know very well what happenned. I do wonder though if there wasn't more to it than porn, many people read porn and don't do what he did... Many "invluences" have "caused" various people to do "things." Porn, violent games, alcohol, drugs, anime, etc... Yet with all those things, other people have experienced the same and come out of it normal. There are people out there who have been shot by kids who played violent video games. And many of them feel the same way as you do, but about video games instead of porn. There are others who were abused or attacked by drunkards, and the feel the same way you do, but about alcohol. There are children that have done pretty screwed up things, and were supposedly influenced by pen & paper role playing games (like dungeons and dragons) and some of their victims probably feel that RPGs should be banned. There are people who have been hurt in accidents by owners of sports cars who were being stupid, and they may thing that cars that can go over the speed limid should be illegal. And on... and on... and on... Fact is, if everything that can lead us to do wrong is banned for the protection of the greater good... well, I hope you get the point. Most of these things can be experienced by the average person, without causing them to do stupid things. So if "influence A" causes "person B" to do "sick and stupid thing" it doesn't absolutely mean that "influence A" is the root of the problem. It could be that "person B" had "tendencies" and "influence A" triggered something within them. Point is, if someone molests a child, that person is messed up. There's more to their actions than the influence of shild porn. It's like saying regular porn causes men to rape people. Fact is, most people have, on occasion watched porn, and the average person doesn't go out there and rape everyone. Some people want all porn banned, but since most people watch it... they don't get far. When it comes to things that most people aren't interested in watching, its much easier to get it banned. But that doesn't mean it should be banned. -t |
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