Forum - View topicNEWS: Media Factory makes request to stop fansubbing
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Anji
Posts: 24 |
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Yea, I used to live in New York and subscribed to TV Japan for a while for the express purpose of watching the latest anime. It was crap, just a bunch of news shows and exercise shows.
I still want cold, hard evidence of a successful suit of application of the Berne convention principles for the international copyright laws in the US regarding TV shows. 96-97 was a LONG time ago. Anybody have any other evidence? Gimme something, and I'll quietly slink away and hide all my illegal goods in some safe place. |
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beelzebozo
 Posts: 308 Location: Aurora, Colorado |
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I remember the incident with the Japanese rental shops, because it affected Denver, too. We had (actually, still have) two Japanese rental shops. thanks to them, we were able to see lots of shows from Japan (unsubbed, w/ commercials, varying quality), hell, we saw the last episode of Ranma 1/2 a week after it aired (and in the days of VHS, that was quick)
But then they were told they couldn't carry the shows anymore... now here's the funny thing, only the anime was affected. You could still get game shows, Music Station, and movies, just not anime off the air. They started carrying copies of commerical Japanese anime tapes later. The problem is that these shops are about as legal as an HK anime & game shop. All of their stuff is copies, even the commerical ones are displayed with color copy covers (I know they are color copies because I know the print shop that does them). But the local Japanese don't care because it's a slice of home and the Americans don't pay attention (outside of us snobs  ) because the shows are untranslated. However, it's been a while since I've been in either shop. It'd be nice to see the Music Station or Red & Blue music battle year-end specials this year...
Oh, and to sum up the Berne Convention, it basically states that "If you enforce our trademarks in your country, we will enforce your's in our's". As simple as that. |
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Anji
Posts: 24 |
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OK, I trolled around the web and tried to find some more info on this, and found a couple of good "articles." The first one basically agrees w/ you guys and sez that fansubs in all forms are illegal:
http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/lawpoli/cases/2004121101.php Sigh. It does state, however, that it's not sure that it would be a good idea for fansubbers to be sued. The second one is a link to an online chat between Jerry Chu from Bandai, some rep guy from ADV, and a bunch of people with questions, including someone, I believe, who's a fansubber from anime-kraze. Warning that the link is extremely difficult to read: http://www.gundams. net/bandai.shtml (Pls note that you need to remove the space before .net. Otherwise, the URL will not display since the link does seem to contain bittorrents.) A lot of questions were asked about fansubbers and what the industry thought of them. ADV has stated that they have sued ebayers who sold bootlegs numerous times. So there is no question about that. However, the industry still hasn't come to a decision what to do about fansubbers. First, they state unequivocally that fansubbing is illegal, so they can't endorse it. However, they have stated that they have watched fansubs before, even mentioning Dear Boys. Animenation even went as far as asking fansubbers if they could use their translation for the commercial release. Bandai even said that DVD rippers are bad while fansubbers are good. However, the industry does believe that fansubbers cost them money even though they find it very difficult for them to separate the losses due to bootleggers from those due to fansubbers. Also, they don't see a practical way to test case a way to measure losses due to fansubs or any possibility of working with fansubbers. As ADV stated: "how would you propose doing that? 'Okay, nobody fansub or distro this except for our test subjects!" Yeah, right. ;p" "How do companies work together with fansubbers? We license something, you guys stop and buy our DVDs when they come out.  "
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Sword of Whedon
Posts: 683 |
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Umm, of course they have. Where do you think the anime companies came from? ADV started by 2 fansubbers, US Renditions was started by fansubbers, AnimEigo, fansubbers. How many of their employees used to be fansubbers? Lots. Just because they've seen them is a total red herring.
That's because AnimeNation are cheap. They knew that they could throw a few bucks some fansubbers way instead of spending $200 an episode for a pro.
It's all copyrights, not just TV shows. The medium doesn't change anything. You're right that the problem is usually US products going elsewhere. But there you have it, someone else who experienced the crackdown in a completely different area of the country. You're twisting the words. It was more like DVD Rippers=Satan, Fansubbers=Hitler. Because of the backlash from the fan community, they're very careful about what they say about fansubbers. You'll notice how many times they repeat the word "illegal"
Because they would then be endorsing criminal activity and held liable. |
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Anji
Posts: 24 |
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Well, I don't know if I was twisting words. The exact quote is basically:
[20:02] <Jekichu> DVD rippers are bad [20:02] <Jekichu> fansubbers = good where Jekichu is Jerry Chu from Bandai. As you say, they probably don't want backlash from the community, and they were nice to all of the anime fansubbing groups during the discussion, even animejunkies. I am surprised to hear that many of the US distributors were founded by fansubbers themselves. It would be somewhat ironic if these people turned around and sued fansubbers later on since they once did the same thing. |
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Sword of Whedon
Posts: 683 |
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I realize that ,but when you read the rest of it it's very clear where they stand
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bluechibi
Posts: 137 |
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I went onto one bittorrent forum to read some of their views. I was quite suprised, they were pretty angry, insulting MF. One guy was in denial saying that when other companies see that MF actions werent successful they wouldnt think of doing the same. Luckily one guy was on hand to point out that it was succesful and that torrent groups and fansub groups had removed all their titles.
One guy suggested people boycott MF series. The whole "point" of fansubs is to promote an unlicensed anime right? I dont think boycotting them just because they dont want such "promotion" is a good idea or in the spirit of anime fans. But yeah they were all 100% pro fansub and without them the anime industry would "cease to be". So my experience is that they seem to be more interested in getting series for free rather than promoting series in the hope that they get licensed (infact the opposite they hate it when shows get picked up). |
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The Starfall Knight
 Posts: 130 Location: Within the hearts of the people |
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That comes as no surprise. Especially since most bit torrent users are all pro-fansub. |
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Shouta
Posts: 32 |
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I just wanted to point out that in most cases, it seems people are sued for the distribution of licensed or copyright material. I think this is the case with MFI and all anime copyright holders. They don't want the material itself to be distributed on a such easy to get basis as opposed to the fact it's fansubbed. That only makes one 1/2 of the fansub equation illegal. The other half (the actual work. translation, timing, type-setting) is still a bit of puzzler in terms of legality from what I've read.
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Godaistudios
Posts: 2075 Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment) |
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Let me preface this by saying that I am not a lawyer, but I think Article 8 of the Berne Convention covers this pretty well. Authors of literary and artistic works protected by this Convention shall enjoy the exclusive right of making and of authorizing the translation of their works throughout the term of protection of their rights in the original works. In other words, since that translation is not authorized... it's not legal. I'm not aware of the specfics of private use and where it's covered in the Berne convention, but as far as adapting the work as well - (Article 12 IIRC) and so on, fansubbing definetly isn't legal in the US. |
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Vukir
 Posts: 66 Location: California |
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Continuing what Godaistudios said, it is also illegal to modify or alter anyones copyrighted material... So, even the addition of subtitles is illegal.
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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Lets be clear here. It's not the actually process of translating and captioning of a foreign film, or TV series (fansubbing) that is illegal. It's the distribution of said fansub outside of one's four walls of one's private home. It's like being able to record anything for your own private use, once one has purchased an original, if not publically broadcasted first, e.g. a TV, or radio series that airs late at night, or when one is not at home to view, or listen to it then , time shifting. But make any of that available to all and sundry in the world without permission of the original producers, whether free, or for profit, that is the violation.
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Aureon
Posts: 7 |
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hmm just found this recently. http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html figured it might help clear people up on the illegality of fansubs and such. is a very clear plain language explaination on copyright misconceptions. literally runs through and knocks out every excuse peple use for fansubs, and it has absolutely nothing to do with them and definately does not mention them at all. not that i am against fansubs much myself. just see the excuses put up the their supporter getting worse and worse every year.
and as for people who say they should be going after bootleggers first. well they are going after them anyone who reads this site enough should see that. is probably more that as they go after bootleggers more and more they are running into fansubs and probably even moreso the raws used by fansubbers for there releases. so they likely are having more and more trouble ignoring their existence. but that is just my two cents.... |
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Anji
Posts: 24 |
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So out of curiosity, is making a parody of an anime episode illegal? I think it's been established if you distribute a raw of a Japanese anime series, that's copyright infringement, and similarly if you fansub it with correct subtitles. How about if you take that illegal raw, and subtitle it as a parody and then distribute it in scale? Is this illegal? I believe that parodies are protected from copyright laws here. And of course, I'm talking about a real parody and not some bad translation or fansub that you claim is a parody and isn't really. For example, I think that there are some parodies out there of Evangelion
 as well as one from Naruto.
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mufurc
 Posts: 612 |
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It is, since even with parody subs you distribute copyrighted material (and Japanese people who download subbed anime via Bittorrent don't really care if it's parody sub or not, anyway). As far as I know, the only case in which it wouldn't be illegal would be if you actually redraw the anime/manga you're making fun of.
I don't know about the US, but parodies are treated differently from other reproductions in Japan, as far as I know. This is why Japanese doujinshi artists and fanfic writers often label their work as "parody," even if it's serious in tone - to stress that even though they're using copyrighted characters and settings, they're not trying to reproduce the original in any way. Last edited by mufurc on Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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