Forum - View topicANNCast - Moe Money, Moe Problems
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Top Gun
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The one slight issue I have with the (oft-debated) general connotation of "moe" is when it casts the idea of feelings of "protection" or "nurturing" in a negative light. I think that when they're handled properly, those sorts of emotional cues can be very effective in contributing to a well-written story. Hell, in a certain sense, they're just plain biological: as social beings, we're kind of hard-wired to want to care for cute little kids, so seeing them in distress really should evoke those emotions in us. One of the best examples I can think of that used this properly was R.O.D. the TV, with the character of Anita. As you start to learn about her past and all the crap she went through, you genuinely want to keep her from any further harm...not because of some blatant external manipulation, but because you genuinely care about her as a character and want to see things turn out all right for her.
So yeah, as others have said, if those "protective" feelings arise from legitimate character development and storytelling, I'm all for them. But if they're instead along the lines of "cute ghost girl crying in the snow because her romances are eternally cursed"...dear lord no. Get that crap out of here, especially when it shows up in otherwise-decent series. That's the real problem with the current anime market. (I guess that sort of leaves out the "cute girls doing cute things" sorts of series, like K-On, but I honestly don't feel too strongly about those either way, other than substantial amusement at Japanese otaku going all crazy over them.) |
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Ranma824
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Eh, I don't know if I agree with that. It seemed that after moe was established as a term, then every character trait under the sun started to be labeled as well. Haruhi is Tsundere, but she is absolutely NOT moe to me. Louise Françoise le Blanc de la Vallière is pure moe, and she's Tsundere. I think moe and other terms exist separately. |
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egoist
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No, Haruhi is a satire of tsundere.
She annoys me to no end. Thus not evoking any moe emotions. Not moe to me.
Clumsy moe, energetic moe, shy moe, cold moe, bitchy moe, psychotic moe. Did I miss any? Yeah, that's how I see this whole crap. |
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DmonHiro
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As an avid moe consumer, and proud of it, it brings me endless joy that more and more moe shows are being made. And here's why it's better to be like me: I can watch all the dumb moe, loli anime I want, and all the FMA, Kuragehime, Bacanoo as well. Moe haters have 50% less anime to enjoy by default.
Anyway, on a more serious note, good podcast. My definition of moe is a character whom you would want to protect and take care of, and rain down swift vengeance on anyone who dares bring her harm. |
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Brand
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I for one am going to say that the whole "OMG Inception is like Paprika" has gone to far. Yes, I can see how watching Paprika could be the concept spark for Inception but both are really different in execution and the meanings they are trying to convey. And just because something has been influenced by something doesn't mean it can't be original in it's own right. Look at something like Revolutionary Girl Utena which was pretty much influenced by every shojo anime before it. I doubt most people couldn't watch and then afterward be like "Nope that wasn't original at all." Going even further down that line if you read the Scott Pilgrim comics, the influence of Utena is pretty damn noticeable (epically at the end, which is pretty different the the movie) but I think Scott Pilgrim is pretty damn original. A lot of it has to do with presentation, key elements of the story, and having different themes. Now that is out of the way what I'm pretty darn sure Zak meant was that Inception is an original I.P. (Intellectual Property). With I.P.'s come brand recognition which for many studios is key to getting people to come out to the movie. Studios want to make money so instead of making say "New World Trotting Adventure Movie" they make another Indiana Jones or make a Tomb Raider movie. (This Star Trek review from RedLetterMedia really goes into detail about this. It's pretty educational and amusing.) As for the moe, I think I've just become on of those people who are like oh yeah, there it is, whatever. Do I see the problem of generic characters that were basically made from mad libs? Oh, yeah. Though it has always been part of anime fandom. If you watch a lot of one type of series they do tend to fill out the cast with fill in the blank tropes. I think moe might have exacerbated the issue but it's always been a problem. I think also it is a problem that for a lot of westerns is the anime moe tropes are just concepts we can't get behind. Young, clumsy girl who makes cute noises sound more like someone who has serious mental issues to me rather than endearing. On the other hand, I totally like the bad boy (or slightly douchey guy) with a heart of gold. Is it dumb? A lot of the time it is. But I can relate to it on some level so even though a lot of stories (see anything in Cheese!) with that archetype is really terrible crap I still enjoy them. So, I can kind of understand the comfort food of entertainment aspect. I think the problem is a lot of the fans are really obnoxious about it. I love rice pudding but I don't go talking to people about it all the time only sometimes when in an appropriate context such as what I would like for desert. |
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ArsenicSteel
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Except that is what moe basically means before considering the personality and complexities of a specific character. Sure there are other guidelines when creating a moe character like not being too sexually aware but most guidelines are just optional quirks, even being female is not that mandatory. The word itself is an attempt by viewers to create a definitive descriptor for similar kinds of characters that were already present in various anime/manga. There are few characters that were created and turned out unintentionally cute by the writer. Whether of not a viewer as positive feelings for cute character is subjective but does not deny that the character is meant to be cute. |
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configspace
Posts: 3717 |
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You're only reaffirming his point -- that moe is an orthogonal quality. It doesn't depend or affect any other traits which are more objective in their classification. For example, Chibi Miku spinning a leek = moe. Dead Master in original form = mature, dark, cool, sexy bishoujo, NOT moe, in Nendoroid form = completely devoid of bishoujo or sexual appeal, totally moe. Lucky Star Konata -- not shy, not timid, not "flawed", not -dere of any kind, and totally moe. |
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Megiddo
 Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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And if I were to describe Anita as "cute pink haired orphan girl crying in the library because the building is on fire" it's not quite as sympathetic sounding as much as the anime made it. What you did (and I as well in the counter-example) was minimalize a story, something that can be done extremely easy to any given story whatsoever. That's part of the problem to be honest. If someone doesn't like a story, then that's fine. But don't minimalize it. Last edited by Megiddo on Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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egoist
Posts: 7762 |
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You're trying to classify something subjective by the traits. While I do call some characters moe, I don't expect everyone to agree, but the fact that tsundere, yandere, and kuudere are moe traits is just undeniable. Just check what "dere" in "tsundere" means and you should understand. You're trying to imply that a tsuntsun character isn't moe, but if a bitch never acts sweet, then she's not classified as tsundere either, thus obviously not moe.
To reaffirm was my intention. If moe is the trunk, then from there we have the terms I mentioned. And tsundere and others are certainly branches of said tree. Last edited by egoist on Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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unready
 Posts: 409 Location: Illinois, USA |
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No. What I mean is that DiCaprio actually said he was influenced by Paprika, in his own words from his own mouth. Last edited by unready on Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Shichimi
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Which makes it a completely worthless carbon copy, amirite? Just like I could never quite get into Halo, as Larry Niven's novels featured Ringworlds.
Christ. ¬_¬ |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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Moe has never been about the sex. it been about how one feels toward someone, or something in an aww inspiring and affectionate way, like when one see's a new spring lamb jumping and bouncing about with the rest. This was true up until the lolicom wolves discovered they might be on to a way to hide their lustful desires behind the the idea and so killed the lamb and wore its skin in the hope of doing so. It did work for a little while, though I was never that naive, but the stains of lust and desire soon leached through and they are not fooling anyone by calling what is now prolific in anime as "moe" when it's blatant loli in various levels and strength underneath. Sadly the otaku market for that is still profitable and so we will have to endure the proliferation awhile longer. Perhaps with Bill 156 this will scare it back into its den where it belongs and more titles targeted toward stimulating the eyes and mind as opposed to the groin will be able to sprout and grow again. Only time will tell.
Last edited by Mohawk52 on Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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unready
Posts: 409 Location: Illinois, USA |
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Troll much? It was Christopher Nolan, not DiCaprio.
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Megiddo
Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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At least Nolan is willing to acknowledge Kon's inspiration for his movie, whereas Aronofsky flat out denies that Perfect Blue was an inspiration for Black Swan, despite the fact that he already remade a scene from Perfect Blue in the movie Requiem for a Dream, and especially despite the fact that Kon passed away recently, making Aronofsky much more of a jerk.
Now let's end this upon agreement that Aronofsky ripped way more from Perfect Blue than Nolan did from Paprika. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Except anyone who isn't intensely biased toward thinking everything is an anime ripoff somehow and has seen Black Swan knows how very little it has in common with Perfect Blue. Yeesh. Neither Inception nor Black Swan really resemble either of Kon's films in any fashion other than some kind etherial hunch that the material is somewhat similar on a molecular level. Last edited by Zac on Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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