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NEW GENRES


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Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 3784
Location: Montreal
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:13 pm Reply with quote
doc-watson42:
Who you gonna call? GHOSTBUSTERS! erm... maybe not? Wink

Noggy:
I was also wondering if parody/satire really deserved to be there. I kept them in since they don't really fit the "theme" definition I outlined above. But parody could be folded into comedy and, while satire can't, the only example of satire I've ever heard of is Pom Poko. Not much to put in that category. Ultimately I consider them subgenres of comedy, that is why they are mutually exclusive with comedy, just as fantasy/magic/supernatural are mutually exclusive. But I guess there's not enough parody & satire out there to justify turning them into full-fledged genres; I'll remove them for now.

doc-watson42:
Historical is really more like a theme. The era in which the story is set does not have much influence over what kind of story it can be.
Erotica might make it though. It's somewhat redundant but more explicit than "adults only" and it definitely fits the definition of a genre.

trebors:
I am not touching age demographics (seinen, shounen, josei, shoujo, kodomo) with a 10-foot pole. First of all it is highly subjective. Second, people get insulted if you classify their favorite title in a category they don't want to be associated with, i.e. "Pokemon is not for kids, it has deep and mature themes!" Thirdly it puts artificial limits on experimentation. A guy might not try a certain title that he would've enjoyed just because it was labeled "shoujo".


v1.0.1 updates:
renamed tsuyoku-naritai to tournament (but name is still not final)
fixed typos/spelling
in fantasy descriptors, replaced "magic" by "swords & sorcery"
added erotica
removed parody & satire (not final, might put back if justified)
in supernatural description, replaced "priests" by "exorcisms"
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doc-watson42
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 1708
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:03 am Reply with quote
Dan42 wrote:
doc-watson42:
Who you gonna call? GHOSTBUSTERS! erm... maybe not? ;-)

I could do worse...Reiko Mikami, Yugen Kaisha, the Saito H.S. Holy Student Council—they all have their drawbacks. <G> And how do I go about finding a (competent!) magical girl team when I need one?
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woelfie
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 380
Location: Belgium
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:45 pm Reply with quote
Dan42 wrote:
As it is the count stands at 17. I could add a few but I don't want too many.

OK, I explained wrong.
Let's say that we end up with about 20 different genres. I suppose (from your explanation) that we can combine some of them together, but how many genres can be attributed to one anime ?
(I suggest 3 or 4 at most, otherwise it becomes a mess like we have now)
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Dan42
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Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 3784
Location: Montreal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:35 pm Reply with quote
Ah, there won't be any hard limit to how many genres one anime can have but we'll have the rule that "would you watch this anime only for the [genre]", so that should keep genres per anime to a manageable number.
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doc-watson42
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 1708
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:50 am Reply with quote
So, how will the clean up of the current genres be handled, especially shounen and shoujo? Also, science fiction still has a hyphen, and IMHO I prefer "etchi" over "ecchi".

As for themes, will a list be available to searchers, or elsewhere, other than the top twenty? (Having such a list would help narrow searches.) And how, er, explicit will you allow them to be for erotica—individual fetishes, perhaps? What about cleaning up misspelled themes, or combining redundant ones (e.g., mahou shoujo, mahō shōjo, and magical girl)? (Headaches, yes, but I think that they are better dealt with now than later, before they become migraines. ) :D
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PantsGoblin
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Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 2969
Location: L.A.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:39 am Reply with quote
Dan42 wrote:
trebors:
I am not touching age demographics (seinen, shounen, josei, shoujo, kodomo) with a 10-foot pole. First of all it is highly subjective. Second, people get insulted if you classify their favorite title in a category they don't want to be associated with, i.e. "Pokemon is not for kids, it has deep and mature themes!" Thirdly it puts artificial limits on experimentation. A guy might not try a certain title that he would've enjoyed just because it was labeled "shoujo".


The themes are "free-input text" correct? Well, I'm 100% sure people are going to be adding these as themes now. So aren't we going to have to deal with them anyway?
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doc-watson42
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 1708
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:18 pm Reply with quote
PantsGoblin wrote:
Dan42 wrote:
trebors:
I am not touching age demographics (seinen, shounen, josei, shoujo, kodomo) with a 10-foot pole. First of all it is highly subjective. Second, people get insulted if you classify their favorite title in a category they don't want to be associated with, i.e. "Pokemon is not for kids, it has deep and mature themes!" Thirdly it puts artificial limits on experimentation. A guy might not try a certain title that he would've enjoyed just because it was labeled "shoujo".

The themes are "free-input text" correct? Well, I'm 100% sure people are going to be adding these as themes now. So aren't we going to have to deal with them anyway?

A suggestion: lock out the demographic terms (section B1) from all anime, but allow them for manga—or (I realize this would be a lot of work) add them to the manga entries before the public implementation of the themes, perhaps by including them in a new data field: target demographic.
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Dan42
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Joined: 02 Jan 2002
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Location: Montreal
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:09 pm Reply with quote
doc-watson42 wrote:
So, how will the clean up of the current genres be handled, especially shounen and shoujo?

I have the conversions pretty much figured out. Shounen will be converted to tournament for anime that also contain Sports, and converted to action for all others. Fantasy will be converted to magic for anime that also contain Magical girl, and remain as fantasy for all others. Except for shoujo, the other genres can be directly converted to a theme or a genre.

So this leaves me with the tricky question of what to do with Shoujo. I could convert it to a theme but I've already said I want to keep demographics out of the encyclopedia. I could convert it to drama but I'm not at all sure this conversion would hold true for most shoujo titles, let alone all of them (excluding slice of life titles). Another possibility is to just remove it all. I would appreciate suggestions on this matter.
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Fallout2man



Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Posts: 274
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:08 pm Reply with quote
Dan42 wrote:
doc-watson42 wrote:
So, how will the clean up of the current genres be handled, especially shounen and shoujo?

I have the conversions pretty much figured out. Shounen will be converted to tournament for anime that also contain Sports, and converted to action for all others. Fantasy will be converted to magic for anime that also contain Magical girl, and remain as fantasy for all others. Except for shoujo, the other genres can be directly converted to a theme or a genre.

So this leaves me with the tricky question of what to do with Shoujo. I could convert it to a theme but I've already said I want to keep demographics out of the encyclopedia. I could convert it to drama but I'm not at all sure this conversion would hold true for most shoujo titles, let alone all of them (excluding slice of life titles). Another possibility is to just remove it all. I would appreciate suggestions on this matter.


The best idea is to remove the idea of having a free input text-box from themes. Let it be a long drop-down list or series of drop-down lists and then add another box where users can submit suggestions for themes which are either voted on by others or approved by editors (or both) as valid themes others can use. This way you don't have 4309583409584 people submitting Shounen or Shojo as a theme for anime and aids in the classifacation.

As far as theme/genre conversions from existing genres, and I know nobody will like this. You're just going to literally have to go over everything all over again, review it for a second, and decide what genre to fit it in. There's no way you can just do a search/replace in the database for genres/themes without running into some errors.
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 9902
Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:02 am Reply with quote
Fallout2man wrote:
The best idea is to remove the idea of having a free input text-box from themes. Let it be a long drop-down list or series of drop-down lists and then add another box where users can submit suggestions for themes which are either voted on by others or approved by editors (or both) as valid themes others can use. This way you don't have 4309583409584 people submitting Shounen or Shojo as a theme for anime and aids in the classifacation.

Seconded. There are a few users who would get trigger-happy if the theme field becomes free input. A pull-down list would discourage most of them -- unless you'd like to use the free input box as a bait to lure those potential spammers and ban them once they start a theme-spree. Twisted Evil

Fallout2man wrote:
You're just going to literally have to go over everything all over again, review it for a second, and decide what genre to fit it in. There's no way you can just do a search/replace in the database for genres/themes without running into some errors.

Well, there are over 8,000 titles, and even if each of them has been reviewed by editors there must be some people disagreeing. While it might sound being lazy, I'd say it would be more efficient to wait for error reports coming in.
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LydiaDianne



Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 5633
Location: Southern California
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:13 am Reply with quote
dormcat wrote:

Seconded. There are a few users who would get trigger-happy if the theme field becomes free input. A pull-down list would discourage most of them -- unless you'd like to use the free input box as a bait to lure those potential spammers and ban them once they start a theme-spree. Twisted Evil


That's just evil!

But I love it! Twisted Evil

Quote:

Well, there are over 8,000 titles, and even if each of them has been reviewed by editors there must be some people disagreeing. While it might sound being lazy, I'd say it would be more efficient to wait for error reports coming in.


Don't you (all Encyclopedia editors/workers) have enough error reports to go through? Wouldn't this add to your workload?
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dormcat
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 08 Dec 2003
Posts: 9902
Location: New Taipei City, Taiwan, ROC
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:20 am Reply with quote
LydiaDianne wrote:
Don't you (all Encyclopedia editors/workers) have enough error reports to go through? Wouldn't this add to your workload?

A Ctrl-F search can locate a genre error among 800+ error reports -- that'd be easier than scanning through all 8,000+ titles. Furthermore, like I said in the previous post, there will be disputes on genre determinations anyway.
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Fallout2man



Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Posts: 274
Location: San Diego, CA
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:37 pm Reply with quote
dormcat wrote:

Well, there are over 8,000 titles, and even if each of them has been reviewed by editors there must be some people disagreeing. While it might sound being lazy, I'd say it would be more efficient to wait for error reports coming in.


While I agree it's a massive amount of work, you have to ask what the goal is. I don't know the whole process for how the genres were made up here, but once a list of themes and genres are finalized and implimented unless it's a very very small list, search and replace won't work. Well, that's not to say it wouldn't, but that the amount of time it'd take to create a somewhat elegant way to transition the old entries to the new genres/themes would take long enough to work out that you might as well just do it manually. Since not only would it take a lot of time to make, then you would have to deal with god only knows how many error reports coming in.

What might work is to get a setup where once the new genres are finalized, let users submit genres/themes for review for titles, but display the old genres at first. After you have enough of the database transitioned over either by user submission or editor review you can leave the rest of the series blank and let users re-submit info for them as they come to them. This would probably be the least work for everyone and look the least ugly.
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DonQuigleone



Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 154
Location: Dublin, Ireland
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:14 pm Reply with quote
I think theme is a bit of a misnomer as ninja or mecha aren't really themes at all, a better idea would be a descriptors box, these shouldn't be freeform but set so they can be searchable (I'd like to, say, exclusively search for mecha anime) admins should be able to add new descriptors freely to the list (maybe with the consesus if several other admins) and you should be able to discriminate in a search between descriptors, genres or target age demograpic (maybe) also maybe a box should be added saying which company(s) animated it so that could be searchable too, because currently it's actually quite difficult to discover which company it was
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doc-watson42
Encyclopedia Editor


Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 1708
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:49 am Reply with quote
Whatever ends up happening with themes, I would like to see the individual sports/games of particular series be included—e.g., baseball for Princess Nine, go for Hikaru no Go, and karate for Natsuki Crisis.
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