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miserly_moose
Joined: 03 Sep 2021
Posts: 1
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:37 am
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While everyone is entitled to their opinion, I'd just like to point a key things:
The main text of this review is 1595 words. The author uses the word "I" (or its variations like "I've" or "I'd" etc.) 42 times. The author uses the word "me" 47 times. Just these two words are used 89 times, comprising 5.6% of the text. I was under the impression that reviews are supposed to inform a person about the work being reviewed. This review on the other hand felt as if the reviewer was writing about him/herself, revealing to the reader how his/her mind views the rest of the world. If I had wanted to hear a confession, I would have read a memoir.
**
That said, I don't completely disagree with the author about the way it handles the plot - it's tropey and kinda humdrum. What I do vehemently disagree is the sexualization of women - not once in the series do any of the characters (male or female) sexualize the female characters. If anything, the most sexualized character is Ryo (the male lead) because all the secondary female cast fawn over him for being a "hottie".
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musouka
Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 718
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:38 am
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Koikimo has low production values and some of the worst sound mixing I've ever seen for s series (no doubt COVID-19 had its part to play in that particular less-than-mediocre aspect). It never becomes a great show and has a particularly bumpy start--I certainly agree with the reviewer that Ryo's sudden love for Ichika is bewildering at best if I'm expected to take it seriously.
However, I also find myself increasingly frustrated with the discourse surrounding the show. Yes, teenage girls are sexualized to an uncomfortable degree--all over the world, not just in Japan--but surely there is room for a discussion of nuance that comes with works like Koikimo being written by adult women, for adult women. This is not to say that such works are beyond criticism, only that the criticism lands far off the center of the bullseye if you're not acknowledging the female-oriented fantasy that's being explored and why it's being explored through an age-gap couple in this case.
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MFrontier
Joined: 13 Apr 2014
Posts: 14258
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:01 pm
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musouka wrote: | Koikimo has low production values and some of the worst sound mixing I've ever seen for s series (no doubt COVID-19 had its part to play in that particular less-than-mediocre aspect). It never becomes a great show and has a particularly bumpy start--I certainly agree with the reviewer that Ryo's sudden love for Ichika is bewildering at best if I'm expected to take it seriously.
However, I also find myself increasingly frustrated with the discourse surrounding the show. Yes, teenage girls are sexualized to an uncomfortable degree--all over the world, not just in Japan--but surely there is room for a discussion of nuance that comes with works like Koikimo being written by adult women, for adult women. This is not to say that such works are beyond criticism, only that the criticism lands far off the center of the bullseye if you're not acknowledging the female-oriented fantasy that's being explored and why it's being explored through an age-gap couple in this case. |
Especially considering the lack of actual fanservice. I don't think it had amazing animation but I think the direction and general animation was fairly solid for the kind of series it is, and the Opening and Ending were well directed.
As far as Ryo's feelings for Ichika...well, in-universe it's because she saved him and didn't immediately fall for his charms and acted appropriately, which made him fall for her. He's also a masochist.
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manapear
Joined: 02 May 2014
Posts: 1530
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:17 pm
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musouka wrote: | Koikimo has low production values and some of the worst sound mixing I've ever seen for s series (no doubt COVID-19 had its part to play in that particular less-than-mediocre aspect). It never becomes a great show and has a particularly bumpy start--I certainly agree with the reviewer that Ryo's sudden love for Ichika is bewildering at best if I'm expected to take it seriously.
However, I also find myself increasingly frustrated with the discourse surrounding the show. Yes, teenage girls are sexualized to an uncomfortable degree--all over the world, not just in Japan--but surely there is room for a discussion of nuance that comes with works like Koikimo being written by adult women, for adult women. This is not to say that such works are beyond criticism, only that the criticism lands far off the center of the bullseye if you're not acknowledging the female-oriented fantasy that's being explored and why it's being explored through an age-gap couple in this case. |
I saw someone comment recently about how adult women in Japan are a good portion of the ones consuming the revenge porn coming out of Japan (mostly the LNs), and thinking on that and a couple of other things... I don't know. I see adult women inhale all kinds of stuff, regardless of the country and their ethnicity, and they certainly create a wide variety of... stuff.
I don't feel this particular series caters to a female-oriented fantasy, but I guess it was intended to. I've just seen so much better age gap (or possessive, obsessive, stalking) aimed at younger and older audiences alike in shojo and TL manga that this tracks so far from them. And even then, I think the criticism that women could have drank the cool-aid and that shows a bias in what they feel is fantasy is kinda key. If a woman is so indoctrinated in systemic issues that she doesn't see how they're bad, wouldn't she replicate them thinking they're something she should also desire? Koikimo just feels too much like that to me, or at least like a woman really wanting to have it both. (That is, the commentary, but also not letting go of the age gap and more, but definitely not doing great with either.)
Outside of that part, one thing that's stuck with me is how defensive people get over the show when so many people acknowledge the low production values. I'm actually kinda puzzled by why some people stick to it so hard, when it does have some low production values, mostly with the sound.
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Thatguy3331
Joined: 18 Feb 2012
Posts: 1799
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:25 pm
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I've never watched the show nor will I probably ever, but I do really feel the reviewer here on stories where I'm supposed to seriously root for a age gap couple and one of them is a minor.
I can never get the appeal of these works because if I'm always asking questions like "why don't we time skip to a point where both parties are adults?" "Why are we honing in on the fact that this adult *specifically* wants to get with a kid?" "How on earth am I supposed to root for or take any of this seriously when every time I hear one of them pine for the other it sounds so whiney and irritating and just makes me dislike one of not both parties?"
Like I'm sure there's something to be said about exploring *why* a character is so attracted to someone out side of their age range in a story, but at that point I view that as less a romance and more a character study than anything just with some extra helpings of squick for no real reason.
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musouka
Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 718
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:50 pm
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manapear wrote: | And even then, I think the criticism that women could have drank the cool-aid and that shows a bias in what they feel is fantasy is kinda key. If a woman is so indoctrinated in systemic issues that she doesn't see how they're bad, wouldn't she replicate them thinking they're something she should also desire? |
There is a difference between a marginalized group exploring what society expects of them VS a non-marginalized group's fantasy of the same.
Koikimo is already unusual in that Ichika finds the advances of Ryo unwanted. I think there's criticism to be had that the series then indulges in the fantasy that Ichika begins to fall for him once she gets to know him better, but I also agree with people pointing out that part of the fantasy is that Ryo doesn't sexualize Ichika. His advances on her start out creepy, but oddly chaste, with things like him showering her with unwanted flowers and gifts. As he gets to know her, he begins to make an effort to pick out things she would actually appreciate, but there's no expectation of sexual reciprocity even though we see Ryo engaging in sex in the first episode.
AKA, part of the reason the audience is supposed to know this love is "true" is because it's not just focused on sexual gratification from either party. Now, you can point out the ways that is problematic--and I'd likely agree--but that's still different from the problems that come with, say, the camera sexualizing Ichika.
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#Bird_Black
Joined: 24 Nov 2020
Posts: 46
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:00 pm
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manapear wrote: |
I don't feel this particular series caters to a female-oriented fantasy, but I guess it was intended to. I've just seen so much better age gap (or possessive, obsessive, stalking) aimed at younger and older audiences alike in shojo and TL manga that this tracks so far from them. And even then, I think the criticism that women could have drank the cool-aid and that shows a bias in what they feel is fantasy is kinda key. If a woman is so indoctrinated in systemic issues that she doesn't see how they're bad, wouldn't she replicate them thinking they're something she should also desire? Koikimo just feels too much like that to me, or at least like a woman really wanting to have it both. (That is, the commentary, but also not letting go of the age gap and more, but definitely not doing great with either.) . |
Are you saying that some women like this kind of fantasy because they are indoctrinated into believing that men should be pursuing teenage girls or something?
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Ming Yi
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 218
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:38 pm
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manapear wrote: | And even then, I think the criticism that women could have drank the cool-aid and that shows a bias in what they feel is fantasy is kinda key. If a woman is so indoctrinated in systemic issues that she doesn't see how they're bad, wouldn't she replicate them thinking they're something she should also desire? |
I understand you meant well, but... please consider that this comment is very loaded with a lot of unfortunate implications and is a common SWERF talking point. It's one thing to say that the story is not well-written in your perspective but it's another thing to imply "women aren't having the right kind of fantasies and it's because they were brainwashed!"
Last edited by Ming Yi on Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:35 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Sakura-Alchemist
Joined: 17 Nov 2009
Posts: 489
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:44 pm
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I think it says a lot about the viewpoint of this site when you compare how KoiKimo was received to how HigeHiro was received.
One of those shows was highly praised, and enjoyed for its "deep" plot. One of those shows depicted a highly sexualized teenage girl engaging in sex, getting panty shots for no reason, seducing the adult male lead, and basically gets put into the role of a bang maid school girl waifu. Those were the same shows, and I didn't finish higehiro but I'm sure you'll throw a tantrum when you realize that it's exactly what the premise implies instead of "wholesome found family". You all glossed over the problematic elements in a show made for the male fantasy and go "It's icky," "It squeaks me out," and "It sexualizes teen girls(When it doesn't)" when you get a show made in the female gaze for the female fantasy.
We get it, you're on the side of Edwardian/victorian men that think women are too stupid to engage in fiction, but when men do it? Totally OK and it gets praised for it.
While it's completely fine to dislike any tropes, it would be good to have some self-awareness and understanding behind the female gaze and female fantasy when writing about a show made for women.
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JR-1
Joined: 02 Oct 2012
Posts: 70
Location: Southeast Asia
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:17 pm
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There's a lot of dimensions here to unpack but I think a lot of anime fans are just unfamiliar with female-oriented age-gap romances which are the bread and butter of shojo and josei manga because very few of them got adapted into anime (unlike the inverse which is why I think the reason HigeHiro has a more welcoming, if still critical, reception because it's an unusual example in a more crowded place). I think the review's even handed enough in trying to explain it but it's still firmly from someone who don't get it, and with indulgent genre examples like this it'll certainly attract defenders, which I think here is important to distinguish with the defenders of the male-oriented age-gap romances which the review tried to preemptively defend.
Getting into why the genre is popular with women though risks into bad takes of essentialism and talking down. At the risk of one my own perspective as an asian is that age-gap marriage in asia isn't unusual and at least on surface they don't have a tendency to turn out worse than similar-age marriage, and in some ways may even be perceived to be more stable as the male breadwinner are more secure in his career.
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Animechic420
Joined: 25 Sep 2012
Posts: 1733
Location: A Cave Filled With Riches
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:49 pm
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Sakura-Alchemist wrote: | I think it says a lot about the viewpoint of this site when you compare how KoiKimo was received to how HigeHiro was received.
One of those shows was highly praised, and enjoyed for its "deep" plot. One of those shows depicted a highly sexualized teenage girl engaging in sex, getting panty shots for no reason, seducing the adult male lead, and basically gets put into the role of a bang maid school girl waifu. Those were the same shows, and I didn't finish higehiro but I'm sure you'll throw a tantrum when you realize that it's exactly what the premise implies instead of "wholesome found family". You all glossed over the problematic elements in a show made for the male fantasy and go "It's icky," "It squeaks me out," and "It sexualizes teen girls(When it doesn't)" when you get a show made in the female gaze for the female fantasy.
We get it, you're on the side of Edwardian/Victorian men that think women are too stupid to engage in fiction, but when men do it? Totally OK and it gets praised for it.
While it's completely fine to dislike any tropes, it would be good to have some self-awareness and understanding behind the female gaze and female fantasy when writing about a show made for women. |
Just so we're clear: you think Koikimo is the better anime from Higehiro, right?
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SilverTalon01
Joined: 02 Apr 2012
Posts: 2419
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:28 pm
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Quote: | And before some of you go to type that comment about how I'm potentially overreacting and can't separate fiction from reality: just... stop. Just take a minute and consider what I'm getting at. Miss me with your, “Well, the age of consent is 13 in Japan!” because that ignores the fact that prefectural laws set the age of consent closer to sixteen, with most being the age of eighteen. Stop trying to find reasons to sexualize actual, living, breathing teenage girls, and stop trying to lean on fiction to excuse the issue of Koikimo being a love story in a society where teenage girls are commodified. Yes, I know Koikimo is explicitly fiction: there's nothing real about this series, other than the real manga and its fans. But Koikimo isn't a story trapped within a bubble: this kind of thing happens all the time to actual teen girls both in Japan and all around the world |
First of all, that last sentence is missing a period in the article if anyone wants to go add it.
But you are kind of over reacting here. Not because of the BS 13 age of consent part. However, there is that bit you wrote after pointing out how the age of consent isn't 13. It is 16-18, the girl in question is 17, and (someone correct me if I'm wrong as I didn't watch the entire series) Ryo doesn't have sex with a 17 year old.
I do agree with you that the age-gap with a 17 year old felt off putting. That is exactly why I never finished the series. It wasn't aimed at me, and maybe it wasn't at you either. Despite the fact that you kept trying to sound like you were giving this a fair chance because you like other age gap works, this review is just harping on that single point the entire time. Obviously it is a major element of the work so by all means talk about it.
I have to agree with the other poster that the reaction to this versus Higehiro is a giant turn of direction (speaking in general, not sure if the author of this review ever did that series). That one was more about lewding up a high school girl yet is somehow less problematic. Or maybe more fair to say somehow it manages to escape being stuck on that one aspect.
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musouka
Joined: 09 Sep 2003
Posts: 718
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:37 pm
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Animechic420 wrote: | Just so we're clear: you think Koikimo is the better anime from Higehiro, right? |
I don't really think it's about better or worse?
In Higehiro, the male fantasy is being rewarded with the (implied) love of a girl through doing the morally right thing of not entering a relationship with her until she's of age. The series flirts with sexual attraction on behalf of both the protagonists to provide tension on whether or not the main character can resist the temptation the high school girl represents. Society is a factor in the relationship, but only so far as the subtext is being annoyed by judgment. It's complicated! He would NEVER! (Until she's a legal adult and hey, she's HOT, but she's still just a kid!) Etc, etc.
In Koikimo, the female fantasy is having an older guy that can (and often does) get any woman he wants fall in love with the protagonist on an emotional level. He would never be pushy sexually, only emotionally. The tension comes between whether or not the main character will allow herself to be emotionally vulnerable to someone she doesn't initially trust. While sex isn't overtly in the series, how society would view a relationship like theirs is a constant in the background--even with the approval of most of their peers and parents--because the main character is aware that a guy like the love interest would usually pull a pump and dump on someone like her, even if this is never stated overtly.
Both of these scenarios are obviously fantasies. The male fantasy puts the onus of the temptation on the teenage girl--this doesn't tend to happen in real life. The female fantasy has the high sexed love interest primarily interested in emotionally connecting to the girl he loves--this also doesn't tend to happen in real life.
Why is one more "okay" than the other? And going further, why is the one that's "okay", the one where the teenage girl is cast in the role of the seductress while the man if lauded for not giving into her? The scope of this review is obviously only on Koikimo and how well/badly it handles the subject material, but surely if we're talking about the danger of fantasies, one must be at least as dangerous as the other?
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Daze3x
Joined: 03 Sep 2021
Posts: 25
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:40 pm
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Honestly kinda feel bad for the reviewer. They have 2 whole paragraphs defending themselves from expected criticisms, except those two paragraphs should kinda be implied in any review that discusses material that may be considered problematic. It's extra sad because the criticisms they preemptively respond to are ones I see all the time whenever someone tries to suggest the material of a series might not be appropriate and they are met with a brigade of insults and bad faith complaints without actually substantively refuting the claims made in the review.
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Sakura-Alchemist
Joined: 17 Nov 2009
Posts: 489
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:03 pm
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musouka wrote: |
Animechic420 wrote: | Just so we're clear: you think Koikimo is the better anime from Higehiro, right? |
I don't really think it's about better or worse?
In Higehiro, the male fantasy is being rewarded with the (implied) love of a girl through doing the morally right thing of not entering a relationship with her until she's of age. The series flirts with sexual attraction on behalf of both the protagonists to provide tension on whether or not the main character can resist the temptation the high school girl represents. Society is a factor in the relationship, but only so far as the subtext is being annoyed by judgment. It's complicated! He would NEVER! (Until she's a legal adult and hey, she's HOT, but she's still just a kid!) Etc, etc.
In Koikimo, the female fantasy is having an older guy that can (and often does) get any woman he wants fall in love with the protagonist on an emotional level. He would never be pushy sexually, only emotionally. The tension comes between whether or not the main character will allow herself to be emotionally vulnerable to someone she doesn't initially trust. While sex isn't overtly in the series, how society would view a relationship like theirs is a constant in the background--even with the approval of most of their peers and parents--because the main character is aware that a guy like the love interest would usually pull a pump and dump on someone like her, even if this is never stated overtly.
Both of these scenarios are obviously fantasies. The male fantasy puts the onus of the temptation on the teenage girl--this doesn't tend to happen in real life. The female fantasy has the high sexed love interest primarily interested in emotionally connecting to the girl he loves--this also doesn't tend to happen in real life.
Why is one more "okay" than the other? And going further, why is the one that's "okay", the one where the teenage girl is cast in the role of the seductress while the man if lauded for not giving into her? The scope of this review is obviously only on Koikimo and how well/badly it handles the subject material, but surely if we're talking about the danger of fantasies, one must be at least as dangerous as the other? |
We have a winner here who understood my point instead of trying to gatcha me by saying "your opinion is wrong because you think x is better than y". Thank you very much for writing all that out. That was very much my intent. It's not about what I think is better or worse.
As a woman did I enjoy KoiKimo? Yes. It's exactly what it says it is, and I enjoyed it for what it was.
Was my viewing of HigeHero tainted by the double standard? Also yes. I was honestly could not enjoy Higehero in a way I could have if it had not been for the double standard on the back of my mind. Seeing the explicit shot of the school girl's ass/panties while the show was being praised for being oh so deep, was definitely annoying. And to call KoiKimo sexualizing a school girl who never shows her panties, and has a skirt down to her knee, and that's not OK but the pantie shots are??? You see the double standard.
Do I think HigeHero was poorly done? No, it was also doing exactly what it set out to do and doing a fantastic job at it. I have no issues with shows made for the male fantasy. I also would have probably been down for the whole waiting until she grew up aspect and all that good stuff. But in the back of my mind, it was always "This is OK and praised, but a straightforward shoujo series is deemed problematic?"
Do I think there was a double standard in how things made for men are treated? Yes, it's OK for the men to get a sexy high school girl bang maid waifu because he waited till she was an adult. All those panty shots and sexuality is OK, while if women wants an average girl to be loved by their best friend's hot older established brother who comes to love them for themselves and their nerdy hobbies included, suddenly that's a disgusting problematic fantasy where the schoolgirl is sexualized by *check notes* eventually developing romantic feelings for the older man but they don't do anything because she's still a student.
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