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JaggedAuthor
Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Posts: 981
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:21 am
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Nice to know I'm not the only one confounded by the finer points of Black Zetsu's scheme. I also thought some of this volume's action scenes were kind of hard to follow, but I have the same problem with a lot of battle manga.
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Kadmos1
Joined: 08 May 2014
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Location: In Phoenix but has an 85308 ZIP
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:32 am
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I honestly wish Naruto had killed Kaguya and he did it himself because he didn't really kill any major canon "final bosses" except for Pein and because that would show a darker side to Naruto.
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JaggedAuthor
Joined: 27 Oct 2014
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:36 am
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^ Good point. Also, if I'm remembering correctly, he basically took Pain down by talking him out of being evil.
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Videogamep
Joined: 10 Jun 2014
Posts: 564
Location: CA
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:18 pm
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I'm not a huge fan of this fight since it's mostly pointless. I never felt like Kaguya had any real presence as a villain since she was barely even mentioned before this fight and she almost never said anything. Having Madara as the final villain would have worked just fine since he had more personality and felt more threatening.
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AiddonValentine
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 2341
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:30 pm
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I think what really killed me about Kaguya is that, when you get down to it, all she exists for is to give an excuse to most of the villains who committed morally questionable/outright evil acts. Obito, Madara, the Akatsuki, the entire Uchiha clan, Kaguya exists as nothing more than giving them a free pass because "THE DEVIL MADE THEM DO IT!" Though that completely and utterly fails once you start actually examining it and it's quite clear that NOT of their actions are absolved because they still did it of their own free will. Way to try and give a convenient excuse for them only for it to fall flat on its face.
It's not the only time I've seen this happen in fiction. Another example was in Bleach where the villains are clearly complete, unrepentant monsters and then the writer tries to do some wishy-washy flashback to make them "complex", though since it's far too late in the game for it to mean anything it just comes off as manipulative and shallow. That isn't how you make a complex, interesting antagonist. Heck, antagonists don't even NEED to be sympathetic to be interesting.
I could go on about more, like how Kaguya's scheme is just another cookie-cutter "Instrumentality" plot, or how she has no character, or how her existence and the final battle basically throw any messages or themes in the series under a bus, etc, but I think I'll just sum it up: she's just an crystallization of ALL of the series' problems and really shows how most Naruto fanfiction makes for a more interesting read nowadays.
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BadNewsBlues
Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 6275
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:12 pm
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Kadmos1 wrote: | I honestly wish Naruto had killed Kaguya and he did it himself because he didn't really kill any major canon "final bosses" except for Pein and because that would show a darker side to Naruto. |
Which would be weird after over 700 chapters where he didn't kill a single person.
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Kadmos1
Joined: 08 May 2014
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:44 pm
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BadNewsBlues, he's killed the fodder/red shirt characters. He also killed that guy that Pein transformed into Itachi.
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leatherhead333
Joined: 15 Aug 2013
Posts: 1187
Location: Kansas
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:08 pm
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AiddonValentine wrote: | I think what really killed me about Kaguya is that, when you get down to it, all she exists for is to give an excuse to most of the villains who committed morally questionable/outright evil acts. Obito, Madara, the Akatsuki, the entire Uchiha clan, Kaguya exists as nothing more than giving them a free pass because "THE DEVIL MADE THEM DO IT!" Though that completely and utterly fails once you start actually examining it and it's quite clear that NOT of their actions are absolved because they still did it of their own free will. Way to try and give a convenient excuse for them only for it to fall flat on its face.
It's not the only time I've seen this happen in fiction. Another example was in Bleach where the villains are clearly complete, unrepentant monsters and then the writer tries to do some wishy-washy flashback to make them "complex", though since it's far too late in the game for it to mean anything it just comes off as manipulative and shallow. That isn't how you make a complex, interesting antagonist. Heck, antagonists don't even NEED to be sympathetic to be interesting.
I could go on about more, like how Kaguya's scheme is just another cookie-cutter "Instrumentality" plot, or how she has no character, or how her existence and the final battle basically throw any messages or themes in the series under a bus, etc, but I think I'll just sum it up: she's just an crystallization of ALL of the series' problems and really shows how most Naruto fanfiction makes for a more interesting read nowadays. |
If I could marry a comment I would. This pretty much sums up my problem with Naruto as well as other shows that try to make villains sympathetic. The thing that pisses me off about Kishi is that he feels the need to justify almost EVERY single villain. I think this sort of thing is fine for major villains but not every bad guy needs to have some greatly exaggerated sob story. I still feel like Orochimaru was still the best villain of the series. His motivation was simple. He wanted to be immortal and loved to see destruction. He was intimidating, powerful and when you saw him suffer after getting his arms sealed you felt he deserved every bit of it. But most of all he was entertaining. His raspy voice coupled with his creepy movements were what made him great. And his relationship with Orochimaru was still compelling enough to make their VERY LONG fight even more awesome.
Point is he was never really portrayed in a sympathetic light which worked for the kind of guy he was. The Uchiha clan didn't need to have their actions justified either. From my point of view I can see their actions as reasonable given the conditions they were under for so long. Sure I don't agree with it but it MADE SENSE. They didn't need to be redeemed by the final villain pulling the "I planned all of this" bullshit that so many shounen use to tie up loose ends. Speaking of which Bleach did something similar with Aizen. Even worse though is how SO many people get a hand wave for all the horrible things they did. Kabuto and Orochimaru are not punished at all for the terrible things they did to THOUSANDS of children/adults. Kabuto especially should have faced some kind of punishment considering he caused things to get to this point. But oh that's right his sob story is supposed to make us think he was manipulated to do this.............even though nobody else knows what happened to him besides Orochimaru. And who the hell would believe either of them?
If your going to try to make a villain sympathetic do so from the BEGINNING. Because sooner or later the audience isn't going to care if the they have a sob story when you've made us hate them the entire time. It's one of the cheapest forms of writing.
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BadNewsBlues
Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 6275
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:32 pm
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Kadmos1 wrote: | BadNewsBlues, he's killed the fodder/red shirt characters |
In the movies of course which we know aren't canon. Otherwise in the main series proper Naruto had never killed anyone that wasn't already dead or on their way to being dead.
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AiddonValentine
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 2341
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Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:58 pm
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leatherhead333 wrote: |
If I could marry a comment I would. This pretty much sums up my problem with Naruto as well as other shows that try to make villains sympathetic. The thing that pisses me off about Kishi is that he feels the need to justify almost EVERY single villain. I think this sort of thing is fine for major villains but not every bad guy needs to have some greatly exaggerated sob story. I still feel like Orochimaru was still the best villain of the series. His motivation was simple. He wanted to be immortal and loved to see destruction. He was intimidating, powerful and when you saw him suffer after getting his arms sealed you felt he deserved every bit of it. But most of all he was entertaining. His raspy voice coupled with his creepy movements were what made him great. And his relationship with Orochimaru was still compelling enough to make their VERY LONG fight even more awesome.
Point is he was never really portrayed in a sympathetic light which worked for the kind of guy he was. The Uchiha clan didn't need to have their actions justified either. From my point of view I can see their actions as reasonable given the conditions they were under for so long. Sure I don't agree with it but it MADE SENSE. They didn't need to be redeemed by the final villain pulling the "I planned all of this" bullshit that so many shounen use to tie up loose ends. Speaking of which Bleach did something similar with Aizen. Even worse though is how SO many people get a hand wave for all the horrible things they did. Kabuto and Orochimaru are not punished at all for the terrible things they did to THOUSANDS of children/adults. Kabuto especially should have faced some kind of punishment considering he caused things to get to this point. But oh that's right his sob story is supposed to make us think he was manipulated to do this.............even though nobody else knows what happened to him besides Orochimaru. And who the hell would believe either of them?
If your going to try to make a villain sympathetic do so from the BEGINNING. Because sooner or later the audience isn't going to care if the they have a sob story when you've made us hate them the entire time. It's one of the cheapest forms of writing. |
The thing is you don't even need to make an antagonist sympathetic or complex in order to make them memorable. Freeza and the Joker for example have VERY simple motivations and goals as well as being pure evil, but they're still very compelling.
As for Sasuke and Naruto, I would say it's like a REALLY bad version of Guts and Griffith from Berserk or Delita and Ramza from FF Tactics. Except it forgets that Griffith, even before his ascension to the God Hand, was an unrepentant sociopath who only cared about climbing the social ladder and never thought of anyone as his equal, even Guts who was his closest confidante and the man who PROVED he was his equal. Still, you understand the sense of betrayal Guts felt and why he's so determined to seek out Griffith.
Sasuke and Naruto...well, in all honesty Sasuke really should have been offed AGES ago for his actions and the fact that he suffers no true punishment for ALL the crap he did or was an accomplice to it disgusting. In a logical world he'd be tried for too many felonies to count, possibly even war crimes. And of course it doesn't help that anyone who says Sasuke needs to be punished is clearly some sort of heartless monster who is reduced to a straw man because the plot says so. It doesn't make it compelling or morally complex, it just makes Naruto look like an idiot and the plot sappy.
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Kadmos1
Joined: 08 May 2014
Posts: 13615
Location: In Phoenix but has an 85308 ZIP
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Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 1:37 am
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I actually like the idea of those heroes that are willing to kill/be dark (sex crimes are another story) because it's closer to the heroes of a the myths that did stuff. However, today it is this trend for the shounen hero to forgive their enemies.
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xzy123
Joined: 07 Sep 2015
Posts: 143
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Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:26 am
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this series turn 180 say FK to fan in the end to pain giving life and the eye power giving so much explaining in begin turn out to be nothing. i love how bleach is doing keep simple and sweet at the same time
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Kadmos1
Joined: 08 May 2014
Posts: 13615
Location: In Phoenix but has an 85308 ZIP
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Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:54 am
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xzy123 wrote: | this series turn 180 say FK to fan in the end to pain giving life and the eye power giving so much explaining in begin turn out to be nothing. i love how bleach is doing keep simple and sweet at the same time |
I've read in several places that several felt that after the end of the Invasion Pein Arc the series fell went downhill.
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BadNewsBlues
Joined: 21 Sep 2014
Posts: 6275
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Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 1:30 pm
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AiddonValentine wrote: |
Sasuke and Naruto...well, in all honesty Sasuke really should have been offed AGES ago for his actions and the fact that he suffers no true punishment for ALL the crap he did or was an accomplice to it disgusting. In a logical world he'd be tried for too many felonies to count, possibly even war crimes. And of course it doesn't help that anyone who says Sasuke needs to be punished is clearly some sort of heartless monster who is reduced to a straw man because the plot says so. |
Considering that none of his offenses are ones where death or needlessly long prison sentence would be a just punishment like most of Orochimaru's or Kabuto's you could understand if people thinking that would be seen that way. And that's only if you don't factor into the fact that most of Sasuke's actions would've never taken place if someone had bothered explaining to him that Danzo was the true mastermind behind the needless massacre of the Uchiha.
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aereus
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 576
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Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 2:13 pm
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>Magnum Opus
Really now? *barfs in mouth a little*
While nobody would dispute that Naruto is ultimate highly popular and successful for Kishimoto, there are A LOT of problems with the story and characterization over the years.
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