Forum

Mohawk52 wrote:

Also I have an 11-year-old-daughter who can be labelled as "average". She will react in a repulsed manor at the shear thought of baring her underdeveloped breasts even in the girls changing room at school, because of her instinctive natural embarrassment to such a thought.

Because she is immune to the so far 11 years worth of societal and social exposure to the rules, morals and ethics of the (I presume) US? Smile

I will admit that I have never seen Nanoha, but according to the ANN encyclopedia Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha (TV),....its for "Older Children" funny how its says that, and people in here have been saying its not for kids.
The sequel Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha A's (TV) its says is for teenagers.
I am sure the ANN staff puts more research into finding out about shows then the occasional forum poster.
I wouldn't have wanted to check this show out before but now i'm actually kind of curious to see if the show is that bad , or if people are simply overeacting and appyling thier own moral viewpoint to it.

I don't see what's wrong with a little lolicon stimulus. Some people (like me) just need it. It sure beats raping real kids. Others despise it because they were born and raised into a culture bound by morals, beliefs and other crap which means bull to myself, for example. As long as there were no real children hurt in the process, I'm completely fine with it.
Moreover, I think that the author of that book should be shot for mentioning moe and lolicon in the same sentence. Those are two separate terms and thus have no grounds to be thrown into the same bucket. Older women can be moe too.

IMHO, you cannot call yourself an otaku if you despise moe industry because it has the largest anime market share in Japan. You cannot call yourself an otaku if you haven't played the game Kanon (which belongs to the moe genre). That said, I wish for domestic (U.S.) DVD and game licensing companies to start licensing moe shows like Magical Lyrical Nanoha and moe games like Fate/stay night because there are fans out here that need them.

crilix wrote:

I don't see what's wrong with a little lolicon stimulus. Some people (like me) just need it. It sure beats raping real kids. Others despise it because they were born and raised into a culture bound by morals, beliefs and other crap which means bull to myself, for example. As long as there were no real children hurt in the process, I'm completely fine with it.

.................................. Shocked

Umm I think this discussion just moved back a little.
This was just as knee jerk as the the people upset over animated nudity thats not erotic, and claiming certain shows are "lolicon".

1.
Yeesh. Of course it's not aimed at kids if it's on late at night. Timeslot is not always used to regulate content but it absolutely tells you who it's aimed at. The network knows when the show is going to air, and who's watching. Are kids gonna stay up till 1am to watch Nanoha? Are the networks catering to the cherished demographic of 'kids who are smart enough to time record programs but too stupid to fast forward through the ads, the lifeblood of our industry'? Come on. If a show is aimed at children it is on right before school or it is on right after it. These shows are not aimed at children, they are aimed at manchildren.

Otaku is big bloody business, and otaku like moe. Not all otaku like moe, but everyone who likes moe is an otaku.

They are a demographic in and of themselves because frankly they don't have anything else to spend their money on. They consume more types of media than anyone else, and that media is linked. Manga ties into anime ties into videogames, and of course there's merch for all three. Best of all they self-identify with it. When they're not consuming it, they're propagating it. Talking it up online. Making fanart and doujins. Going to conventions.

So yes, their purchasing power can and does support any number of Nanohas or Kanons or Airs or Ichigo Mashimaros or Bottle Fairies or Rozen Maidens. The fanservice is not there to hook some otaku in to go with the core audience base of children. The otaku are the only ones watching.

2.
Are these shows lolicon? No. Do they sexualise kids? For the most part no. Sex is that icky thing that adults and social people do. Otaku do not. Sometimes they want to retire to a world where they can forget that fact. Moe is that world.

Where the otaku has no female contact in reality, in his dream he is surrounded by them. Where he is threatened by them in reality, in his dream they are impossibly nonthreatening or even threatened by him. In reality he is dependent on others to the point of shame, in his dream these nonthreatening females are dependent on him. They might be sick, they might be shy, and they are always virginal and innocent. They need to be hugged and protected by a big strong man and would you look at that, the otaku is the only man in his world. No wonder why moe shows are entirely populated by children, and why the West mistakes them as being aimed at children.

Lolicon is moe with sex. I've heard it said that there is no sexual component in moe. But let's play a game.

Name twenty female moe characters. Easy? Easy. Hell, just add up the cast of the shows I listed.

Name three male moe characters.

Oops.

Moe is not illegal and it's not even 'wrong'. But it is pervasive, and it is pathetic.

kallewoof wrote:

Mohawk52 wrote:

Also I have an 11-year-old-daughter who can be labelled as "average". She will react in a repulsed manor at the shear thought of baring her underdeveloped breasts even in the girls changing room at school, because of her instinctive natural embarrassment to such a thought.

Because she is immune to the so far 11 years worth of societal and social exposure to the rules, morals and ethics of the (I presume) US? Smile

We don't live there. We live in the UK, but no is still the answer. It's because she is still innocent and has a good sense of right and wrong. I don't know about you so forgive me if I ask, didn't you feel a sense of embarrassment at the thought of exposing your private areas of your body to the general public at that age? I know I did. I was always the shy one of the gang. Wink

Also she so far is wanting to go to bed at 2200-2230 if she is allowed to stay up and she is not a morning person so would never want to get up that early on a Sunday just to see a cartoon let alone anything else. I would have to record it for her if suitable.

But you are still looking at moral and cultural values instilled in her since she was born which are very different from those Japanese girls would have. I would assume that she would never step in a giant bath with a bunch of other nude girls of various ages either. However, for Japanese girls (and boys) this would be perfectly normal.

I'm not saying Nanoha was aimed at young girls. In this case, it probably WAS aimed at an adult male audience. I'm just pointing out that even an eleven year old is going to have different values based on how she was raised.

HitokiriShadow wrote:

But you are still looking at moral and cultural values instilled in her since she was born which are very different from those Japanese girls would have. I would assume that she would never step in a giant bath with a bunch of other nude girls of various ages either. However, for Japanese girls (and boys) this would be perfectly normal.

I'm not saying Nanoha was aimed at young girls. In this case, it probably WAS aimed at an adult male audience. I'm just pointing out that even an eleven year old is going to have different values based on how she was raised.

I agree, which is why I said she isn't Japanese. But this is not the controversy. That is that there is such a large adult following of such genre as well there, enough to produce such a book as this to highlight it.

The point still remains, though. Yesterday, my niece (7 years old, 8 in a few months) came into my room and chattered away about some nonsense, wearing nothing but a pair of pants with her chest exposed. She wasn't embarrassed, and I sure as heck didn't give it much thought until I read your earlier post about right and wrong, and that a sense of embarrassment at exposing one's skin belongs to the latter category. Now admittedly you said "to the general public" but that is somewhat outside the picture in this case. People have sex in almost every single grown-up (western) movie out there. But (regular) people sure as heck don't have sex "in the general public" because of it.
Point being that the content of a movie/show cannot be seen as something akin to the general public, even though the general public may end up seeing the movie/show.

kallewoof wrote:

The point still remains, though. Yesterday, my niece (7 years old, 8 in a few months) came into my room and chattered away about some nonsense, wearing nothing but a pair of pants with her chest exposed. She wasn't embarrassed, and I sure as heck didn't give it much thought until I read your earlier post about right and wrong, and that a sense of embarrassment at exposing one's skin belongs to the latter category. Now admittedly you said "to the general public" but that is somewhat outside the picture in this case. People have sex in almost every single grown-up (western) movie out there. But (regular) people sure as heck don't have sex "in the general public" because of it.
Point being that the content of a movie/show cannot be seen as something akin to the general public, even though the general public may end up seeing the movie/show.

The difference there is, your family. My daughter did the same thing at 7 too. I'd be willing to bet that when your niece is at age 11 she will not do that family, or not simply because up to the age of 10 most children aren't aware of sexuallity in general let alone their own in the teenage sense. There is no deluge of hormones then.
Where did you get that I said anything about people having sex in the general public? I thought the discussion was about studios making tranformation sequences with nudity in what should be a shoujo story for tweenys and up, and the situation that there are a large amount of Jananese adult males, and apparently adult males outside of Japan, who watch these too which was being highlighted by that book. My point is that these studios know this and purposely make these types of sequence shots to service them and thereby broaden their market.

abunai wrote:

Chrno2 wrote:

LilyChan wrote:

Ooh. o.o I want to get that book when and if it comes to the States. Sounds like an interesting read.

Sounds like a very interesting read. Confused

Don't get your hopes up. When you get right down to it, hate literature is seldom very interesting.

Some years back, I made the effort to read a number of "classics of the genre", including the notorious but seldom read Mein Kampf. Overall, I found these books to be dull and uninteresting, filled with half-baked argumentation and limp prose. I suspect their only real audience appeal is to people whose preexisting prejudices they feed upon.

- abunai

dormcat wrote:

Abunai, you beat me to it. Wink

I found it a bit unnerving to see so many Westerners interested in this Ken Otaku Ryu. You want to read it (some of you even find the title funny) because you are not a Korean, a Chinese (in the Chugoku Nyumon case), or an otaku. I really want to see your faces when "Ken America Ryu" or "Ken EU Ryu" get published.

Now go recite Martin Niemöller's speech.

Is it wrong to be curious? The only reason why I'm even considering reading this piece is because I'm curious on what it's contents are about. Even with people lecturing each other of this and that, I'm still curious on what the book says.

astra wrote:

Lolicon shows are another thing altogether. Yech. And yet if Nanoha is a lolicon show, how can one enjoy it if one isn't a pedophile? I'd really like to hear a male explain his love for these types of shows in this thread because it confuses me. If you aren't attracted to the girls, then why do you watch it? I'd really like an answer.

You want me to answer? Well it's simple.
I didn't know anything about this show before I started watching, just that it is a magical-girl show.

When I first saw the transformation I was even thinking about stopping (yes, that is unneccesarily), but I continued watching it. And I did the right thing: it is one of my favorites now. It has so amazing fighting-scenes, what most shounen-stuffs can't compete with.

And the story and emotions are fantastic too.
Oh by the way I get to like the CHARACTERS very much by the end of the show...and not THAT kind of 'liking' Razz

(Also I suggested my friends to watch a bit of it, and when the transformation scene started they just thought it is funny, although strange. Very Happy

)

And by the way I enjoyed Ichigo Mashimaro, Card Captor Sakura and Kamichu too.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not only into this kinda anime, I watched over 100 series only in the past year...

So while the whole loli-con thing is a problem in my opinion, most of the animes with little girls/cuteness are not a part of that. But some series among them are also..."pedo-baits", it may be true, but even those can be quite good.

And about the airing times of a series...they can record it into VHS or stuff like that so kids don't have to stay up late!
*Unfortunately I can't express myself the way I want because I'm just a Hungarian idiot Razz

Forum - View topic
NEWS: Ken Otaku Ryu "Hating the Otaku Wave" Published in Japan

Dahlia in Bloom Staff, Ekachi Epilka Studio Respond to Report Claiming N. Korean Animators Worked on Anime

The Grimm Variations Anime Series Review

Anime to Watch if You Liked Shogun

The Quintessential Quintuplets Manga Gets New Honeymoon Anime

BLUELOCK THE MOVIE -EPISODE NAGI- Anime Film Review

Interview: Author Akihiro Nishino on Bottle George, His New Stop-Motion Animated Film

The Spring 2024 Light Novel Guide

SAND LAND Video Game Review

	Anime News Network Forum Index -> Site-related -> Talkback	All times are GMT - 5 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
Page 8 of 8

Forum - View topicNEWS: Ken Otaku Ryu "Hating the Otaku Wave" Published in Japan

Forum

Forum - View topic
NEWS: Ken Otaku Ryu "Hating the Otaku Wave" Published in Japan