Forum - View topicIs there a bias against licensing and English dubbing?
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DemonEyesLeo
 Posts: 844 Location: Japan |
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Ok first off, this is not a "dub vs. sub" thread. Now that that's said...
I've noticed that there are a few people out there who never seem to be satisfied with the English version of any anime. Naruto, for example (I’ll use it because it’s recent); back when it was announced that Naruto got licensed, I remember reading, and hearing, many people complaining and worrying over just about everything; from "they're going to cut out all the good stuff," to "they're going to change the names of the Jutsus," etc… Well the premier came and almost everything that people were worrying over had been left intact. The only edits were for flowing blood, a little violence, and the new intro and outro songs. But were people satisfied? Nope, they found more things to complain about; mostly the “mispronunciations” of the very words they were afraid would be changed. I’ve even heard people saying they hate the Naruto dub because of the new intro song. And then I also know a few people who don’t watch anime in English at all. And, dubbing aside, I also know people who hate the licensing of anime, because now they might have to actually pay for it. So this got me thinking; maybe all the people who make these complaints have somewhat of a bias against the licensing and English dubbing of anime. It would explain why some complain when a new series gets licensed, and why people are still complaining about Naruto even after, in my opinion, Viz’s excellent work on it and CN’s lenient editing job. Now granted, bad English versions exist; but that doesn’t mean that all English dubbing is bad; that’s like saying every actor on this planet is like ________ (you fill in the blank with who you think is a bad actor). So my question is; do you think this bias exists? And if so, why do you think it exists? Now once again, this is not a “dub vs. sub,” I want your opinions and thoughts on a possible bias against licensing and English dubbing. |
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arxane
 Posts: 447 |
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Does a bias exist? Absolutely. Thankfully, such a bias doesn't exist throughout the entire anime fandom, but there is a sizable chunk of people who do possess it and are very vocal in making their opinions known. The bias could exist for a lot of reasons. For example, people don't like dubs because they prefer to watch anime in their original language, a.k.a. Japanese. They feel that watching the show in its original language gives them a better overal experience, which is why even the best dubs don't appeal to them. Or maybe people have been turned off by many truly awful dubs to anime series in the past and refuse to give other more deserving English dubs a chance. They probably wouldn't believe you if you told them that Japanese voice acting can also be frighteningly bad at times, because watching a show in a language you're not too familiar with is better than listening to poor performances in your own language. Of course, a huge factor is attachment. Someone can become so attached to a certain show ("Naruto", as an example) and refuse to accept it in any other form other than how they originally viewed it. Ergo, even the best English dubbing with no edits of any kind wouldn't satisfy them because they believe the original version to be the "pure" version and anything else is automatically inferior. This belief that other versions are inferior causes them to seek out problems rather than look out for them - for example, the pronounciation of names in the "Naruto" dub have thus far been consistently good, but some people still strangely point out "bad pronounciation" that doesn't even exist. Then, of course, there's one of the worst reasons for this bias: elitism. It's sad to say, but some people worship the Japanese version of shows because it makes them feel special and part of a collective group that's closed off to the rest of the world. Elitists automatically resist their favorite show being licensed and especially put on television in dubbed format because they don't want their "fandom" overrun with "clueless newbies", even though they themselves were once newbies. The same elitist bias against English dubbing can also be applied to licensing. While many fans appreciate the time taken by licensing companies to bring over a show in a legit format, some fans don't like it because they selfishly want to continue downloading the show for free and not give any compensation to the people who originally created the show. Most of the time, people have fairly good reasons for preferring the Japanese language over English dubbing, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, those who decry English dubbing for no good reason are simply trying to make themselves feel superior to others who prefer to watch anime in their own language. And, with that over, I'm gonna get some sleep... |
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Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
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They did change the names of the jutsus (Kagebunshin no Jutsu to "Shadow Clone Jutsu", which is better than "Art of the Doppleganger", but still not right).
The intro and outro songs are worse than the originals, again, not as bad as they could have been (I'm looking at you Gash Bell), but still not right. Words ARE mis-pronounced, some voices ARE miscast, and some voice acting IS banal and unimpressive. Again, nobody truly horrible (I'm looking at you Sanji), but not right. So, you give all that stuff a pass, while people like me call them on it. Do I have a bias against dubs? I really don't think so. I have a preference against them, I mean I always prefer the original Japanese when given the choice, but I think I judge them fairly, and cannot accept blame for them not measuring up to the level of the Japanese version, or of equivalent original US productions. It actually sounds to me like you have more of a bias FOR dubs, that you would dismiss those who do simply have honest and fair critiscisms of the show. |
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6897 Location: Kazune City |
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I agree with arxane that fans are opposed to licensing for selfish financial reasons--they don't want their gravy train of free Naruto, Bleach, Mai Hime or whatever else to be cut off. (Of course, it's likely that some unethical group will emerge to sub Bleach post-licensing, as with Naruto.) People entering the fandom in the last few years (including me, at first) don't always realize that the original purpose of fansubs was to build enough popularity to get the shows licensed, not to provide HQ infinitely duplicable free copies of shows with fancy subtitles and convenient filesizes to fit 26 eps on a DVR+-R to cash-strapped collectors.
And as others have said, it could be a purity complex--they think any other interpretation is going to "ruin" the show, or else exposure to bad dubs causes bias. Given that the first shows I bought were Sailor Moon and Love Hina, it's surprising I watch anything dubbed, but then I moved on to Bebop, FMP, etc, and now try to give the dub a fair chance on rewatched shows. But overall, I think the bias is less than what the vocal minority represents; many more casual fans prefer the English they see on TV when they make that language menu choice on the DVDs--I'd imagine many have difficulty reading subtitles while still taking in all the visuals of a show, and some (gasp!) might not like the sound of Japanese. Yeah, there's a bias against dubs, but there surely must be good support for dubs--otherwise, the licensee companies would have abandoned them in favor of cheaper sub-only releases years ago, if there were that much hatred for dubs. (Still, thanks CPM for sub-only Seraphim Call and Sentimental Journey, + ADV for Sakura Diaries sub-only--great bargains  )!
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Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
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Actually the original purpose of fansubs were so that American fans could watch anime. The idea that anime might be "liscenesed", outside of the odd Robotech-esc hack job was far in the distant future. |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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Of course it exists, primarily with the purists and the obsessed. Of course, the funny thing about bias is that most people are bias without even realizing it. Since most don't buy the releases or support the industry though they're of little concern.
It's all about their proclaimed concept of purity though, which is sadly reminiscent of various other forms of purists in our worlds history. It's an old tune really, there are always those that think some way is the only right or true way and that any other way is impure and evil. As is often the case in human psychology it will eventually get to the point that they can no longer even look at anything even related objectively as on a subconcious level their viewpoint is skewed by their underlying disgust for anything even similar to what they consider impure. It often will begin to manifest in cultural and ethnic opinions among other things that are indirectly related. History is full of these people, but sadly they rarely make the history books for any reasons one could consider admirable or ethical. |
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Kouji
 Posts: 978 |
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I don't know about dubs in general, but I have a theory as to why some Naruto fans are so biased against the dub. Back in the mid-'90s anime wasn't all that popular yet and the only way to watch most of the good stuff were through low-quality VHS fansubs. I don't know how many people actually had access to the fansubs, but I don't think it was very many, at least not as many when compared to today. When an anime got dubbed and hacked to death, the few purists fans who had access to the fansubs would complain about how terrible the dub was (Sailor Moon, for example) and say that everybody should watch the Japanese version instead, even though probably not a lot of people had access to the Japanese version. I think that maybe some of the Naruto fans grew up around these people and admired them because of their elite status in the anime fandom community and wanted to achieve an elite status like that themselves.
So, now comes along Naruto which becomes extermely popular among anime fans, and with the now wide availability of high speed Internet connections, more people have access to the fansubs. So, when Naruto became licensed and was going to be edited for Toonami, I think that the Naruto fans may have wanted to experience the elitisism that the purists fans of the mid-'90s did by bashing their favorite show's dub to death any chance they got, no matter if it was a decent dub or not, out of jealousy of the purist fans of the past, so in a way, you could call those Naruto fans "wannabe purists." Of course, this is all just a theory and I could be completely wrong about it, but it's just a theory. |
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Isaaru
 Posts: 375 Location: the oppressed colonies in outer space |
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I think its a quite valid theory Kouji!! The purist movement of the 90's were a lot more exclusive and closer knit because they usually shelled out money for fansubs at conventions or went through a lot of trouble to find unedited Sailor Moon/DBZ/Robotech/whatever. Fans new to anime would definitly look up to them back then and be interested in what they had to say. Except many of these wannabe purists nowadays don't see how edited and translated anime has really improved. They don't see that if One Piece had been released in the mid 90's, it would have been far more "butchered." Though with less access to fansubs and internet opinions, most fans of anime would have been oblivous. Hell, it might have even become a hit. I honestly think that a lot of bias exists now because fansubs are waaaaay to easy to obtain. And using bias to remove the guilt in watching the anime for free and not paying for the DVD no matter how good the translation is all too easy. But those Naruto fans who fall in the catagory of "wannabe purists" have another name: Narutards. Seriously, there is no pleasing them no matter how the edited version came out. What makes a lot of them special is that many of them learned about fansubbing and torrenting through the popularity of Naruto on the internet. Hardly anyone in my local community knew what a torrent was or about (insert popular fansub site) until that show came along. |
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bahamut623
 Posts: 1463 |
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When people dislike the dub, I think its just that they got used to the Japanese version and the english sounds strange to them. If they just give it a chance they'll get used to it. Whenever I see the dub version first, when I watch the Japanese version, it really just sounds odd to me. Same thing for when I watch the original Japanese first. The dub will sound odd. But i really dont think your missing anything by not watching the Japanese. Some people might say the acting in the original is better or something, but 88% of them probably dont even speak Japanese and wouldn't even know the nuances of the language enough to judge good or bad acting.
As for nitpicking over edits, it just helps justify their "dubs suck" position. As long as the edits dont alter the story in any way, there's no harm done.
Dont forget, the show is being translated into ENGLISH And the new opening for Naruto actually fits the overall musical theme of the show better than "Rocks" |
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DemonEyesLeo
Posts: 844 Location: Japan |
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What I'm doing is expressing an annoyance with people who complain when a series gets licensed and who only focus on the negative aspects of English dubs and never the positive; which, to me, points to a bias against dubs in general and asking if you agree/disagree, opinions, etc... This was not meant to be about the Naruto dub or preferences to dub vs. sub. I just used Naruto as an example because it seems to get the most attention. Now, if you want to use Naruto to illustrate a point then go right ahead; but this is not to discuss the Naruto dub nor to discuss one's preference about "dub vs. sub," and I do not want it to go in that direction. |
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red stranger
 Posts: 184 |
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Some thoughs on the issue:
Editing - I think the anger towards editing is more towards the fact that that most edits are made so that the so can air on American TV and to make the show "suitable" for a younger audience. I also think that the small edits are the worse, because when a show is "butchered", you can hope for uncut DVDS. But it's not worth the effort for a company to put out uncut DVDs, just to add in a couple of seconds or whatever. Fansubs - someone said something about people complaining the edits so they'll have an excuse not to buy the DVDs. I think it's the opposite. People see a show on the internet, and they want it to get licenced, with the hope that it will have a good dub, DVD extras, etc... But when their favorite show is licenced, and the dub is bad or there are edits, then people get angry. The DVDs they've waited so long for are not going to be as good as they wanted. Worse, people who see the edited/badly dub version might dismiss the show because of the changes. Japanese dub - It's true that most people don't speak Japanese well enough to get the nuances of the the acting performance, but you can still get the general feel of the acting. You also get something closer to what the original creators had in mind, and in some cases, the voices are almost a trademark of the character. English Dub - The reason why people get angry when the names and japanese words are misprononced is because it simply sounds unprofessional. It's true that Japanese voice actors often mispronounce English words, but it's also true that there's hundreds of pages on the web mocking "Engrish". Also, when people say "But Dubs are better these days", they don't take into account that all the bad dubs are still out there. It's not as if any company (Except Disney with the Ghibli films) has gone back and redubbed their back catalogue. Master Keaton still has an american accent, "Joe" Saeba is still one half of City Hunter. Bad dubs are going to be with us FOREVER. |
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xSUiT
 Posts: 20 Location: The inner depths of a shell |
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To answer the question yes there is a bias and I'm kinda surprised there were people who didn't know the bias existed. It's also funny cause this has become sorta a dub v. sub thing lol. Oh and I just gotta say though I prefer dubs cause I hate reading when I trying to catch in all the action I still preferred the sud of Naruto to the dub just cause yeah I don't like the voices. I can deal with the "special" opennings and closings cause that's done just cause of time constraints I mean some ops and ends are like 2minutes long or longer! And I can deal with americanized names cause it's on toonami and toonami is centered to younger kids and it just seems like anime doesn't have as much of an appeal to then. i.e. Yu Yu Hakusho's, Lupin III, and others runs' on tv. (That's just opinion but you get what I'm saying I hope) Anyway ...screw all this anime's cool how about that?
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hagakure|returns
Posts: 407 |
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Uh, that's not true, the original creator of series are usually the mangaka. Kenshin's mangaka didn't feel for the Kenshin character's japanese dub, and felt like the drama cd (for Kenshin) fit the Kenshin character more than what he heard in the anime. So the original creator did not feel for the japanese dub the first time he heard it, but eventually got around to it once he heard it many times. The point is, whoever is in charge of the project will use voice actor they feel is appropiate for the part, the same way American voice actor are chosen. And everyone has difference opinion on what fits and doesn't. Of course, a viewer cant' say a japanese voice actor doesn't fit his character when they don't even know japanese themself, but they can critize american dub. Bad dubs do exist, but most people with extreme bias opinion will not give a good dub a chance at all. And most seem to avoid buying anime at all and using reason such as bad dubbing or bad subtitle as an excuse to download the fansub. Every DVD I buy, I will watch it in both language and while some dub don't work for me, I try to be as fair as possible. So far everyone made great points, (execpt Ohio) |
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IchigoK90
 Posts: 1634 Location: Scarborough, Ontario |
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Dude its Ohoni. And is there a bias? Who knows. I don't really care as I've learned to tolerate almost anything............except up-tight people who think they're better than other people, racists, and X/1999 the Movie. As stated before I think its because people don't want to lose out on free anime, I mean who doesn't like free stuff? Anyways it could also be due to already horrible dubs or cut versions of it taking away what made the series great for them. |
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Zalis116
Moderator
Posts: 6897 Location: Kazune City |
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Yeah, you're right on that--I'm not old enough to remember, and I've only been in the fandom a few years. Maybe it was more in the midlife of the fansub world (before digisubs and torrents, when it was still in the VHS tape trading phase) that the "induce licensing" idea came about. Or maybe I'm completely making it up  
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