Forum - View topicWhat think ye of FUNi Blu-ray upscales?
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dewlwieldthedarpachief
 Posts: 751 Location: Canada |
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EDIT: Changed title of thread from "DRM and Evil license squatters".
EDIT: As indicated by the title change, we've gone in the direction of FUNi's Blu-rays and related discussion. I want to make the FUNi Blu-ray upscale controversy accessible to readers beyond the hardcore video nuts. Let's bring everyone up to speed on what a good Blu-ray is! Basically, HD anime is limited to shows that were produced on film, with cel animation, and the latest digitally animated shows. For a period spanning the genesis of digitally produced anime and up until the last couple years, most digital shows weren't animated in HD. So, for the purposes of selling BDs many shows are upscaled into 1080p. The criteria for a good upscale is...well, looking exactly like the DVD. Some people allege that it's important to upscale for Blu-ray releases because most people's hardware won't do a good job of upscaling. And yet surprise surprise, it looks like at least in the case of Champloo and similar releases, we were better off without the helping hand! Or at least no worse. Samurai Champloo (i.e. a bad upscale) I don't think it's a stretch to say a PlayStation 3 could have done better with Champloo, which rather defeats the purpose. And don't forget that audio is the other half of HD! It'd be a tall order to ask for an Akira-esque remaster on every TV series under the sun; a humble uncompressed PCM track though is the stereo du jour on many Japanese DVDs. Lossless audio is in many cases the only real reason to upgrade to upscaled Blu over the DVDs and the only thing that really qualifies those discs as "HD" to begin with! Also, If you're interested in further technical discussion and screen caps they can be found at www.asianblurayguide.com and the mania blu-ray forum at http://www.mania.com/aodvb/forumdisplay.php?f=43. Dear ANNizens, I realize now my greivous error in creating the previous thread “What does it mean to “own” something.” There was a fairly large divide in the topic I introduced and what I actually wanted to bring up and really talk about. In the end it become too bogged in semantics and pedantics for it to be in any way accessible or particularly worthwhile. For anyone needing closure I'll say this much: I am in the debt of the various directors, VAs, writers, and all the other manner of technicians and artists who make awesome anime. I don't want to be one among the millions of metaphorical hands shoving them into lives of fetid squalor (as if they need the help, anime industry being the gold mine it is.) But the times change, our understandings change, and eventually the law has to change; I don't think copyright can escape that. Onward. I oppose copy protection. It doesn't effectively manage to prevent the victimization of people producing content and it frustrates the consumers who sometimes have to go to great lengths to use stuff they paid for. Furthermore, I contest that if media giants and pygmies alike put half the bleeding energy they do into copy protection into protecting the quality of their products maybe that would put them back in the black. Of course, the shortcomings of the bodies involved in anime don't end with their involvement in the CP world. Sometimes they buy rights and just sit on them for a decade or two (have they ever said uncle?), other times they do lesser yet still irritating things like changing credits, music, titles, and whatnot. Should these companies be held responsible at some point? Personally, I'd sentence FUNimation to 5000 hours of community service for appalling Blu-ray production. Last edited by dewlwieldthedarpachief on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:32 am; edited 4 times in total |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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I too oppose copy-protection, A.K.A. D.R.M.. I oppose it on grounds that it is always buggy, too open to abuse, doesn't let me actually own stuff that I paid for, and tries to lock you into using certain software.
I do not oppose D.R.M.'s purpose of stopping people from acquiring "media" - such as songs - illegally. You know, without the permission of the artists. Yes, I realise that as someone who watches fansubs this is a weird position to take. But there you go. I really don't want to go further down the rabbit hole, so I'll stop now. |
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dewlwieldthedarpachief
Posts: 751 Location: Canada |
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@dtm42: Would that it were the case that DRM ever "stopped" any abuse of content. It just isn't, anything else is apologetics.
Going down the rabbit hole how? |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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No, it hasn't stopped any illegal downloads, at least in any significant amount. Neither has the RIAA suing people for US$150,000 per song. Teetering on the edge. Boy are we ever. |
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dewlwieldthedarpachief
Posts: 751 Location: Canada |
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@dtm42: Yeah, that and the Handley case are nothing if not appalling.
But what about this business with the FUNimation Blu-rays? Here's what I don't get: Blu-ray matters because it is HD. Yet somehow there are Blu-rays that while in an HD resolution, aren't mastered from HD sources. I mean, botching the transfer is one thing, but on the occasion of there being an upscale and Dolby stereo audio there isn't any HD at all! How can they do that and then not be held accountable by the Blu-ray license holders? EDIT: Or rather, the Blu-ray Disc Association? |
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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How does this have anything to do with DRM? I'm curious as to why you changed gears like this. Wouldn't it have been better to open a discussion on FUNimation's BD offerings rather than DRM? I see this thread getting locked, again. I recommend you pick one topic and stick to it (re: edit your post and title) before abunai has to warn you. On topic (regarding FUNimation's BD offerings): I'm astounded by people who buy these products, then turn and complain about the offerings. It shouldn't be difficult for people to understand if the native was produced in 480, there's no amount of magic that will turn it into HD (720/1080). For this, I say stop complaining or stop buying. The choice is obvious and ranting here does nothing. If you really object, tell FUNimation, not us. I'm not going to care about problems people bring on themselves. I wouldn't buy FUNimation BDs because I already know the offerings are mediocre. What was your reason for purchasing the mediocre product to begin with? Certainly it wasn't to complain about them. Now, if those future BD offerings retain the current issues from HD produced anime, then we can discuss the real issues. However, I seriously doubt future offerings will retain current issues given they won't be upscaled and filtered. Just my two cents. Take away from it what you will. |
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krelyan
Posts: 173 Location: Utah |
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They have produced a few that are native HD (Shigurui and Evangelion 1.11 off the top of my head) and those two at least are both fantastic. The only issue is with their upscales, not their entire BD line. As for "license squatting," I don't think I've heard an anime company buying rights just to be dicks about or deny another company the property. There's been a few titles that have definitely taken a long time to see the light of day, but usually its due to trying to get a TV deal, some bizarre legal issue or it was part of a package deal. |
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TatsuGero23
 Posts: 1277 Location: Sniper Island, USA (It's in your heart!) |
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I believe his context of DRM is to the extent of all the way down to the disc level. No just downloadable media. How you can't pull the info from a disc without ripping software. I also think dtm42 response may have been from the downloadable side of things too.
Is that correct dewlwieldthedarpachief? You actually mean the DVDs and disc protection, hence your BD tangent? Also can animation companies even afford to "squat" on titles? Harmony Gold can because of how they obtained their rights and Bandai can cause they are just an extension of there of the original rights holders anyways. Funimation isn't nesscarily squating since they are releasing rescued titles. Just maybe not at a fast pace. The only real squatting I've seen was with the Trigun title. But I honestly don't keep up with that stuff. |
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Shichimi
 Posts: 349 |
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I am put in mind of this webcomic strip
As for 'squatting', I always thought it was an attempt to stop fans subbing the crap out of it before a legitimate release? |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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Trigun's been license rescued by Funimation, and even then, it's not like it was super hard to find before that. It's had 4 or 5 releases from Geneon from VHS to dvd to repriced dvd to boxset to remastered dvd [both the signature and remix versions are still up at RightStuf for that matter]. I think what's becoming more clear is that some folks have a serious disconnect between what they want out of the anime industry, and what's realistic and practical. Stuff like "License Squatting" is just venturing into the realms of paranoia. Not saying your crazy, just that you are overthinking things, and seeing way too much into a company taking time making a title available. Sometimes it just takes time to find the right place in your release schedule to put something out, try to get a TV broadcast, get all the japanese approvals done, get a proper translation, finish a dub, author a dvd, get streaming/downloading rights, have artwork approved, pay your employees, and then ship it out to retailers. Anime companies want to succeed, and these are all necessary steps. If something bad happens, the main reason behind it is usually either lack of demand (which leads to releases getting dropped)- the realm of cancelled midrelease titles like Corrector Yui or series whose subsequent seasons/sequels remain unlicensed like Prince of Tennis- or issues with contracts (which can lead to a title getting dropped, and usually they avoid issues like this by not announcing a title till it's all set to go. There's literally only a handful of licenses in this category, like MB's announcing Tales of Eternia and The Story of Rikki, then stumbling onto unforseen licensing issues, or the numerous manga licenses that were affected when Biblos went bankrupt. Another example would be ADV's release of Mermaid Melody, which they dubbed in it's entirety, but a release hinged on a TV broadcast which didn't happen). In both cases, it doesn't stop another company from giving it a try- look at RightStuf's Super Gals 2 boxset, Manga Ent. releasing ADV's dub of Tactics (which ADV never announced, I'm guessing due to not ultimately licensing it), MediaBlaster releasing Giant Robo on DVD after Manga had had issues putting it out on dvd after vhs and laserdisc releases were completed due to DVD rights issues, or Funimation releasing the rest of Story of Saiunkoku. As for DRM, it's a bit odd to think that companies shouldn't put some kind of protection into their dvd's and blurays. They don't make a DVD so you can make illegal copies of it, they make it so you can stick it in any DVD player and watch a movie, and even then they are trying to apease people who want that with stuff like digital copies. It's not that they don't want to fulfill viewers needs, it's that they want to fulfill them in a way that makes economical sense. You have to have some kind of realistic expectations. Shichimi- that Penny Arcade strip about sums it up. edits- Re:Funi'sBluRay releases- I agree expectations are indeed too high, I'm surprised people just don't go for the dvd releases in those cases. Japanese upscales are no different, just more expensive. You're probably getting the best looking material possible for shows not aired in HD.... I've seen a fair amount of people who've had no issues with them. Anyhoo, that's everything I have to offer on this topic. |
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Tony K.
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 11440 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Which are even worse than the BDs in a lot of cases. The main issues most people have are with video quality (a problem that's plagued FUNi's DVDs for a while now) and the exclusion of Japanese lossless tracks. The original masters for both are out there in the anime homeland, it's just a matter of buying or paying to get them remastered, then slapping 'em on the U.S. releases. But to save money, I guess it's just easier to do all the encoding in-house, which may or may not result in a product meeting fans' expectations. Personally, I'm happy they're at least trying to make the best use of the format, but mediocre is still mediocre despite good intentions and "genuine" effort. If the product still ends up half-assed and only accommodates for one half of the market (i.e. the dub crowd), what kind of attitudes does that exude toward the other half? "Oh, we're sorry we couldn't afford lossless Japanese audio, but you guys can still enjoy these upconverts in Japanese Dolby Digital 2.0, right?" If that's the case, I'd rather they not release any of these on BD at all, so much for its slap to the face from a product specification aspect. It's only a benefit for people who like their dubs, not those who might actually want to hear it Japanese lossless as well. And as moot as it may seem to complain in a forum and not directly to FUNi, I have a hunch that they do, indeed, look for feedback from other sources. In fact, I'm sure they probably have someone browsing these very forums right now. Whether or not the general consensus of complaints reaches their production/development department is a flip of the coin, but it doesn't hurt to let off steam every now and then. |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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I wonder if it's a case of those materials just not being available- it could be that in a lot of these BluRay upgrades, lossless audio wasn't produced in Japan. I remember ADV often produced dubs in 5.1 surround sound, but only offered 2.0 japanese tracks which were the standard in Japan at the time.
I imagine for a lot of titles, the japanese companies aren't interested in remastering them themselves, and the effects of a remaster here might not be as good as Funi might prefer. Digitally animated shows probably are't as practical to clean up as well as something made from film lile Cel Animation, and much of what Funi licenses is digitally animated. When you think about it, most of the remasters we tend to get are from Cel Animation. |
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dewlwieldthedarpachief
Posts: 751 Location: Canada |
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To answer your first question, I got from thinking about things like DRM to other offensive practices of anime distributors. Then I had the nerve to crack a joke about it. But you have a point; I actually wasn't aware you could edit titles, I must have been thinking of another forum.
Really? You think people don't have a right to feel upset when they buy an HD format only to find out it's not HD? I think they should AT LEAST have some kind of print on the box that gives consumers some information. They do it for the content when we apply MPAA ratings, some DVDs even say "mastered in high defintion". Of course how well it's been upscaled is an entirely different issue but whether it has been or not should be an important technical specification, wouldn't you say?
Yeah, I meant to say copy protection on the whole. I think it all pretty much boils down to the same story: look good by making the gesture of fighting piracy without actually dealing with the problem. All the while there's a cottage industry for apps like AnyDVD and all region DVD players to just get the products to work.
To be honest, I just pulled that term out of my ass because I couldn't think of anything else at the moment. All the same, it's good to learn that it probably isn't the case that anime companies are going to pull a Miramax.
On the contrary, I would say it's the companies who are being unrealistic. There's entire cottage industries dedicated to apps like AnyDVD and region-free DVD players that have enabled ardent anime fans since the very beginning of copy protection. How does sinking millions of dollars into ineffective CP (like HDCP, exposed years prior to implementation as being breakable) make economic sense? How is that being realistic?
FUNimation's upscales are not the same as Japanese upscales. It's a topic explored to great depth <AHREF>here. In short, FUNimation applies filtering to upscales that removes the visual effect of digital grain that was a part of the original production. This not only removes fine detail along with the grain but also introduces digital artifacts. Regardless of whether or not there are people willing to buy the BDs who care about it, what's essentially taking place here are instances of "HD" products with less detail than the DVDs! How is wanting at least equal to or better definition on a high definition release in comparison to a standard definition one being unreasonable? |
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sk1199
Posts: 162 |
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While there will always be someone out there wanting to take something from someone else. DRM keeps the casual person from making copies and selling or even giving away the product. You're correct in that people can make copies using specialized software but the software and duplicating machines needed to make the copies aren't easy to get hold of and aren't cheap.
It's like having a burglar alarm on your house. If a real professional wants to get in they can. But you average Joe on the street isn't going to have an easy time of it and may be deterred from even trying. |
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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Thank you for changing it. On topic a bit, while DRM is pretty much here to stay, I do have to say at least the anime industry isn't taking such asinine decisions as to take away DVD remote options and force them to watch their previews. Hell, I'm still glad they allow us to bypass the FBI warning! Though, given fan sub sites in existence, the warning is pretty damn moot, so maybe the industry will think about removing them. as if the FBI has any jurisdiction over copyright infringement, which still remains a civil lawsuit, not criminal |
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