Forum - View topicWhat the American industry should be doing.
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kikiyo2
Posts: 36 |
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I was having this conversation with a good friend. He refuses to watch fansubs if there is a R1 dvd and is mystified that I don't as well. I've been trying to explain to him what the American industry needs to do if they want to get the more critical fans into its fold.
1. Simultaneous streaming (within 1 hour of broadcast). This satisfies those that want it now and don't care about the quality. 2. A subbed, high-quality, digital download available for purchase within 24 hours of broadcast for $1.00. This should be reasonable as fansubbers have been doing it for years (for free). It'd be ideal if they would just subcontract this work to the fansubbers themselves. That would ensure that these files would be encoded properly and translated correctly. The $1.00 is applicable because that's about what the licensors get out of a DVD sale anyways and digital files are much, much cheaper. A subscription fee of about $10 a month would also be acceptable (the average fan probably follows between 2 and 3 shows over a 4 week period). 3. A COMPLETE DVD collection release within 1 month of the final R2 release with similar audio/video quality. Price points should be $15 MSRP for a single movie/OAV, $30 for a 13-episode cour and $50 for a 26-episode cour. If people want a dub, they could do a Gurren Lagann style release afterwards. 4. Most importantly: stop ranting against anime fans and treating them like scum. We only pirate because you won't provide the above and it is perfectly reasonable as people have been doing it for free for years. It's quite simple, provide a quality product and we'll buy it. It isn't rocket science. 
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18352 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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It isn't rocket science, but it isn't as simple as you make it sound, either. You are, of course, conveniently overlooking a vast array of licensing and regional issues which always interfere with expediency. You are also conveniently overlooking the fact that many (I'd even say a majority) of fansub groups don't distribute as fast or reliably as you're claiming they do, and gods, I wouldn't want to be paying money for the translation and subtitle writing quality I see in many of them.
Also, it's hardly like groups are consistent in the video formats they use. Your proposal would only work if the fansubbers could be convinced to use a single standardized format - and good luck with that. Besides, some series are now being virtually simulcast via streaming video with English subtitles. And you know what? Groups are still making fansubs of those series. (I point to Sora no Woto as a particular current example of this, but it's hardly the only one.) If even near-simulcast streaming video isn't ending fansubs, what makes you think a "high-quality digital download within 24 hours" even for $1 per episode would make that much of a difference? I think you're also way off base on how many fansubbed series the "average" fan using fansubs follows in a given month, but that's a separate issue. |
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PetrifiedJello
Posts: 3782 |
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As one who disagrees with elements of the anime industry, this is one thing I'd never say. I don't believe any anime company is ranting against its fans and sure as hell not treating them like scum. It's people like me who treat them as scum by making allegations based on speculation while trying to change the industry overnight all the while they continue to serve me with a smile. Key pointed out some good arguments as well and it should be apparent there's much of this industry many of us aren't privy to knowing.
Then let these people move to Japan. Aside from the regional aspects, there's also technological aspects to consider. Think simulcasting is easy? You've no clue.
Again, move to Japan and buy the DVD raw, learn Japanese, then fulfill the desire to have these DVDs as fast as you can. But more importantly, you don't buy them anyway, so where is this even coming from?
I present to you FUNimation's new S.A.V.E. line, which beats your asking price as $19.99 for 13 episodes and $29.99 for 26.
And alienate the potential revenue by those willing to purchase dub titles? That's going overboard. Many fans are willing to wait for a dub while others, as you clearly represent, will find alternatives which bypass the entire revenue stream. I've a few subtitle only series in my collection, but rest assured, this isn't my primary choice in spending. I'll always choose dub over sub unless the sub series warrants a purchase, and that's a pretty high bar to attain. |
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Maryohki
 Posts: 526 |
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Your demands are unreasonable. The reason why fansubbers are capable of getting subs out to fans so fast is because they're not going through any legal channels to get permission. To release a legal copy of an anime, be it for stream, download, or DVD, the series first has to be licensed for distribution. From there, the non-Japanese company has to get permission for all sorts of different things. IIRC, this includes the translation itself. It can't be done legally at optimal speed. At least, not until the Japanese companies become more open and less controlling.
A lot of the DVD releases that involve single discs only happened that way because the Japanese company forced the American company to do it that way. And prices HAVE been dropping and are quite similar to the prices you've suggested. In most cases, the American companies treat the fans very well. FUNimation has pulled some pretty lame things before (licensing titles with no intention to release them just so they could go after fansubbers, and the fact that they announced that they licensed Sengoku BASARA at AX 09 but haven't said anything about it since come to mind), and other companies have pulled similar things, but for the most part they care very much about the fans. However, they have every right to speak out against fansubs and people that download them. It's putting these companies in their graves. But in the long run, most fansub watchers are lying through their teeth when they say that they'd obtain their anime legally if only the companies handled it X way. As soon as their demands are met, they just find something new to complain about and keep on pirating. Maybe you're different, I don't know, but the fact still stands. And why should the American companies bend over backwards to try to please people that probably will never buy their product anyway? |
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Spastic Minnow
 Bargain HunterExempt from Grammar Rules  Posts: 4629 Location: Gainesville, FL |
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Well, specifics aside, kikiyo2 has a point.
What is the new review today? Genshiken 2 vol.3 When was this show broadcast in Japan? How long ago was it that the first volume was released? How long until there is a complete collection of the series? How long until there is an economical collection of the series? How about a collection of both series? You have to believe 90% of the people buying that DVD have already seen the material inside. And then there are those who might've paid to watch it if it had come out earlier in some format but ended up watching it fansubbed and won't bother now. A situation like that is an example of a system that does not work as well as it should. But there have been huge advances. Half season and season sets being released instead of single volumes. Many legal streaming choices. I already have faith that anime companies are trying to better their product delivery and often heading in the right directions.... product selection is sometimes lacking but it is a money game and they have ideas about what will make money whether it's the best quality show or not. |
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3947 Location: New York state. |
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Have to agree with Key that you're really overestimating the capabilities and issues faced by anime distributors, fansub groups and legal streaming sites like Crunchyroll.
If you think folks don't care for quality, then you're sadly mistaken. Taking the time to make sure there's good video/ audio quality and accurate subtitle translations make for a more satisfying watch than having choppy video, audio not in sync with the video and/or having enough grammatical/ spelling/ translation errors in the subtitles from a rushed job.
As Key's pointed out, each fansub group has different methods in how they work on their projects and more than one group can often be seen working on the same title. These groups pride themselves on whatever methods they do and it is highly doubtful that you would be easily able to get them to all agree to a single format, even with legal support from distributors. Plus even with Crunchyroll providing legal subs for stuff like Durarara!, fansub groups are still subbing said titles which makes your proposal for a near-perfect paid simulcast a moot point since that would still drive fansub groups to sub said title if an American distributor hasn't picked it up yet for licensing. And 2-3 titles being what's followed by the "average" fan? I normally follow 4-5 at a time per month and I know of folks who follow just as much or more so in a month than I usually would.
A month isn't enough time for a distributor to properly prepare translations, DVD/ Blu-Ray menu interface and tuning the video/audio quality onto a DVD/Blu-Ray. If you're doing this mentality under the assumption a distributor licenses a title just as it is starting up while having a tight relationship with the Japanese developers, then that would be too much of a gamble for the distributors as jumping onto the mentality that said title will be an instant hit with the fans without paying enough attention to their thoughts over the course of the show would be bad business. As for your price offers, there's Funimation's S.A.V.E video line coming out which PetrifiedJello. Also as time goes on, the price for a particular series goes down and in many cases, popular titles like Cowboy Bebop, the first Full Metal Alchemist series and Mushi-shi become more affordable. Or if you can't stand having to buy anime from a retail store by its full retail price, get it online. Online stores like Rightstuf sell titles in many instances at cheaper prices than retail stores. It's also quite ignorant to consider watchers of English dubs to be second fiddle to fans of the Japanese version in marketability. It alienates that part of the anime fanbase and would do more harm than good for anime distributors in placing more priority at appeasing one particular demographic than the other. I'm actually more annoyed at the fact that titles I would be interested to hear an English dub for are only receiving sub-only releases like Emma: Victorian Romance and Tokyo Godfathers. But this isn't really the right topic to be dabbling into such a subject.
Now this is quite an ignorant thing to say. I certainly see that companies like Funimation and Viz Media do care at offering their fans what they want and doing what they can to deliver it. Viz has been whipping out releases of mature titles like Nana and Monster, even with Naruto and Bleach getting enough promotion and marketing from the company. And even with Funimation's never ending promotion of Dragon Ball Z, the company's been on enough of a roll with license-rescuing popular and diverse titles that have either been long out-of-print or came from companies that were dying off in American distribution like ADV and Geneon. And even if distributors did start to follow your "standards," your thoughts are just your own. Those that continue to pirate will still do so, even with tighter relations between U.S. and Japanese companies + cease-and-desist orders planted in the faces of those that become caught in the radar of distributors. Whether this is due to absolute disgust of the American anime industry or believing their take on a title to be better than the American take, not everybody will have the same mentality as you when it comes to fansubbing and pirating a title. |
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Mushi-Man
 Posts: 1537 Location: KCMO |
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Wow, this list of demands makes me laugh. I guess in theory its ok but it would never work out in a professional environment.
1. They already do simultaneous streaming of new series, like the fans asked. And now fans just keep demanding more for no reason. What is the harm in waiting a little to see the series. If you really want to watch the anime that early just do as PetrifiedJello said and move to Japan. And it's legally and technically impossible for them to do this. You think with the already existing simul-casts they're not already going as fast as they can? In fact, from what I heard, the Japanese companies make American companies wait a set amount of time before they can show it over here. If you have a problem with this go talk to the production companies in Japan. 2. First of all, they do this quite often, and this kinda goes hand and hand with simul-cast. Second, fansubs don't do that high of quality, thats how they get the shows out so quickly. Most groups that fansub quick like that make allot of mistakes. I only know a bit of Japanese and I can tell with allot of them. This is the very reason why I like to wait a bit before watching the series. 3. That would be an awful box set. I don't know if you realize how much work goes into making these dvds. It's not as simple as burning a dvd on your computer. It takes allot of planning and manufacturing to make a quality dvd release. 4. The American anime industry has been bending over backwards for years now trying to make better products and make the fans happy. And they have been giving us quality products, but you still don't buy them. Now all of this being said I will admit that I watch fansubs all the time. But I also buy dvds all the time. I don't watch fansubs because I'm trying to rebel against the american anime industry, I watch them because I like to watch something and then buy it. I think the anime industry is doing a great job and they should keep going in the direction that they are now. Of course there are a few things I would change about the current American anime industry, but the op's list doesn't contain any of my wanted changes. |
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GeminiDS85
Posts: 391 |
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I want to propose a hypothetical scenario that takes into account kind of what the OP proposed. Ok, let’s take our hypothetical series, Suzumiya Haruhi season three. Now for season three of Haruhi, Bandai and Kyoto Animation have decided to stream an English subtitled version of Haruhi simultaneously with the Japanese broadcast. Bandai will be offering the full season three of Suzumiya Haruhi on their website for the one time price of ten dollars. For this onetime fee, customers will be able to watch all fourteen English subtitled episodes of season three of Suzumiya Haruhi in crystal clear 720p. In addition, Bandai will provide each customer with a one-time code, which will allow for ten dollars off the Haruhi season three box-set. Season three of Suzumiya Haruhi will be available for streaming exclusively on Bandai’s website until the season three box-set is released six months after the airing of the final episode.
Now this is the perfect recipe for success, right? We have a well established show with a fanatical fan-base that will gladly pay for this service, right? I will be extremely generous and say, 20% of the fans who would normally watch fansubs would fork over the ten dollars. Yes, many people want to do the right thing and pay for their anime, but then again, people are cheap. Would this scenario stop fansubbing groups? No, the fansubbed version would still be available within twenty four hours of the Japanese broadcast. Even with the added bonus of receiving ten dollars off the purchase of Haruhi season three, people would still take the free alternative. Now imagine if Bandai tried to charge for a series with no established fan base. Would 5% of the people who watch fansubs pay for this service? It is nice to think that there is a way to stop fansubbing; even if Funimation managed to obtain a monopoly on all the rights of every new anime series and streamed them through their website for ten dollars a month, it still would not stop fansubbing groups. Yes, it might reduce the need for fansubbing groups, but fansub groups would still exist to provide an alternative translation. Last edited by GeminiDS85 on Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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egoist
 Posts: 7762 |
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I'd say that's a good idea. Perhaps besides offering $10 off, they could offer a special extra. Like $10 off, or a special. Costumer's choice. Needless to say, that special extra won't come with regular DVDs, but will be proposed to those who paid for online streaming only(1 DVD per costumer, clearly).
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batou37
 Posts: 455 |
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Ideally I think we all would be happy with online distribution of every series that comes out each season subtitled and in good quality. The questions that arise from that are what sacrifices are people willing to make to get that? Could each show be done, and done well, with a week of lag time; say episode 8 airs on a Thursday in Japan while episode 7 does here? At what cost would this be profitable for companies to do this? I think myself I'd be willing to pay a $50-$75 membership fee per month in order to do this, especially because of all of the series that I miss out on because I never watch any fansubs. But then again, how many people would go the honest route and take advantage of this and not watch fansubs which in their minds are "free." The problem is without any hard numbers on the cost of licensing for online streaming each episode the whole idea falls into the category of conjecture. Maybe Ill just end up having to take classes in Japanese in order to watch the raw versions of each series that never get licensed for R1 distribution and buy legal imports from the Japanese amazon and other companies. Guess Ill have to buy a different dvd player as well and get a second job because those releases are extremely expensive compared to what we are used to
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FaytLein
 Posts: 1260 Location: Williamsburg, VA |
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Well, everything you say SOUNDS good, but when you get into the nitty gritty, money side of the business, any company that would follow that methodology would pretty much be in the red in a fairly short time frame. Lowballing release prices already put most companies out of the running, since they would have to move that many more units at the lower price in order to simply break even, nevermind making a profit so they can continue to exist. People have been talking about the ever dwindling number of anime fans that are actually buying things, the american industry should really be working on advertising to promote their product, and attempting to make a solid product people would be willing to pay for, pulling people away from the fansub releases.
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6895 Location: Kazune City |
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>> warpsharp on station upscales = "proper encoding" >> all fansub translations are "proper" (Coal noodles, anyone?) >> fansubbers can work with established deadlines, rules, and producer oversight Also, most if not all of Crunchyroll's translations for its streams are done by former fansub translators. Suddenly, their work became horrible/over-localized/sub-par in the eyes of the fansub-watching community, even when that same community had respected their work while they were fansubbing. (Though in fairness, some of CR's subs, like for Secret of Haruka Nogizaka ~Purezza~, are bad by any standard.)
"It has a dub, so I don't want to pay for a dub I don't want" "It doesn't have a dub, therefore it has no value" "DVD subs don't have sparkling-heart/exploding-panties karaoke effects" "DVD subs are too intrusive" "Professional subs are too localized" "Piss-yellow subs are ugly" "DVD subtitles use boring fonts"
Are there any recorded instances of R1 companies (actual company executive or representatives, not contract employees like voice actors) ranting against anime fans or treating them like scum? Beyond pointing out the obvious disparities between sales numbers and download numbers, that is. Companies like ADV and Geneon So should anime companies make adjustments for the current realities? Of course. But "critical fans" also need to meet them halfway and financially support the medium we love. It's a compromise -- they put up with our thievery for the most part, so we should put up with official releases taking some time and not being 100% perfect with respect to the above list of complaints. Disclaimer: I don't condemn watching fansubs, it's the hollow justifications for not paying for a product one likes that I disagree with. Last edited by Zalis116 on Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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sailorsarah08
 Posts: 471 Location: Houston, Texas |
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I think the industry may be helped by better trailer placement. The people who buy DVD's are going to continue to buy DVD's, so give them something they want to buy. I'm never going to buy Tony Hawk Circus thing, ever. Putting a Dragon Ball Z trailer on my discs for Rumbling Heart's is a bad pairing. If they could master the idea of that simple marketing, they'd be getting more money from me personally. Maybe I'm not the target audience for Kodocha, but I don't think that the audience is that of Full Metal Alchemist.
I know I'm raggin' on Funimation, but they are the bulk of my DVD collection. They certainly have people who are far worse at trailer placement, like VIZ. VIZ didn't put any trailers for anime on Honey and Clover Set 1. Not even one. Why VIZ, why? That's why I don't own very many VIZ DVD's. I think Honey and Clover is the only one I have from them, though I do plan on getting Nana for my birthday. Anime just needs to start by selling to the purchasing masses, if that makes sense. |
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Shichimi
 Posts: 349 |
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I think one good way to do this could be to create 'preview' DVDs, containing single episodes of upcoming series, collected by genre. Fans could put down a little cash to see what Sci-Fi titles are coming up, or Shoujo, or what have you.
Also, DVD extras are one of the big draws of owning DVDs (besides the whole "actually supporting the industry" thing  ). Commentaries, creator interviews, outtakes, silly extra features (having the VAs grilled on their school days for Pani Poni Dash! was a laugh riot!).
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the Rancorous
 Posts: 2248 Location: Hunting the Dragon in Gransys |
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I call complete B.S. on this statement. You pirate because you are cheap and don't want to pay for anything. There is no other reason for it. Even if your (ludicrous) demands are met, you or others would come up with another reason(s) to not purchase it. People (mainly in the ages of 14-24) feel like they're entitled to get things for free for no reason. What I hate the most about piracy is how people try and justify it; you're only fooling yourself as any one with two brain cells to rub together can see how flimsy your 'reasons' are. |
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