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Last edited by Gatherum on Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

It may be one of those things that I wouldn't rate all that highly today. But dammit, it's a childhood nostalgia thing!

However, I'm not paying for 49% filler. Sorry.

[EDIT: Made your thread title less long-winded. -TK]

[EDIT: Aww, but I did that on purpose. Oh well. Razz

-Gath]

It'd be an interesting experiment. I think the main obstacle would be the length; it's already twice as long as DBZ was, and it's just going to get worse.

You have heard of Naruto: Shonen-Hen, right? So practically it exists, but I wouldn't see westerners getting it for some years now, considering it hasn't been that long since episode 220 aired here.

Okay, that's two aspects that they have right: changing the OP/ED and remastering it in HD, the latter being a big plus for me. What I am most concerned with, however, is the remedy of animation and picture errors and especially the omission of filler. If they ever come out with something like that, I will be on the original series so fast.

...And Shippūden, I guess, much as it's been annoying me lately.

Honestly, when I used to watch Naruto and Bleach a lot I really liked the general concepts of both. Ninjas are cool, and so are martial artsy shinigami. But somewhere along the line I got tired of each one stacking and stacking upon itself. I stopped at the first Naruto series after the main story finished spoiler[where Sasuke went bad] and skipped the filler, but couldn't bear to watch Shippuuden because of the terrible animation quality and plodding screenplay to slow things down.

I tried reading the manga, but even then I stopped around spoiler[the part where Jiraiya fights Pain and I think was supposed to get killed]. I have no idea what volume that was, but I saw volume 55 or something at Barnes & Noble last night and thought to myself, "sheesh, he still isn't done yet?"

I just don't find it useful to consume all the time and energy it takes to maintain these ongoing series anymore. As fast as I can read or even if I watched anime at 1.5 or 2x speed, something tells me the further these things go, the more likely I'll be disappointed.

I haven't seen DBZ Kai yet, so I'm a little curious to know how that actually worked out. Although, I heard something along the lines of the first handful of episodes not having Shinsuke Kikuchi's music? If so, that's a bummer, 'cause his music is part of the nostalgia.

Tony K. wrote:

I tried reading the manga, but even then I stopped around spoiler[the part where Jiraiya fights Pain and I think was supposed to get killed]. I have no idea what volume that was, but I saw volume 55 or something at Barnes & Noble last night and thought to myself, "sheesh, he still isn't done yet?"

I just don't find it useful to consume all the time and energy it takes to maintain these ongoing series anymore. As fast as I can read or even if I watched anime at 1.5 or 2x speed, something tells me the further these things go, the more likely I'll be disappointed.

I don't mean to go off to a tangent here, but I feel I need to get to the bottom of all the criticisms with the Naruto story once and for all. This isn't isn't the first time (at least on Anime News Network) where I've heard the complaint of Naruto's story going on and on and on and how people just want the story to end. I can understand when a story can drag on and not feel like it's progressing towards a certain goal. I would imagine that this is how a lot of people felt about Bleach from the Hueco Mundo arc through the Karakura town arc.

Now here's what I don't get. If we compared Naruto to One Piece for a moment, One Piece has been around a bit longer than Naruto and it's still got another 10 years left in the story or so. Luffy and his crew are still not close enough to where they see the One Piece treasure in sight. And yet, not as much people complain about the length of that story whereas with Naruto, it's the opposite reaction. What I'm just not understanding is if it's just a length issue or if there's something else more to it than that? Is something about each of the characters and how they just don't come off as any bit compelling to you anymore? Is there something in Naruto story you specifically in Naruto to just... happen already and yet it's not happening quite yet? Is there some change in the middle of the story that you weren't... eeh, gelling with or something? What is bothering you and everyone else about the storey or is taking you and other people out of the story? I'm not getting it.

Mind you, I'm not exactly ranting. However I will admit I'm getting a little frustrated over how I can't seem to easily figure out where the criticisms towards the story come from, especially considering I'm not really getting tired of the story at all. It's far from a perfect, masterpiece story, I'll definitely admit that. But for some many people to be tired of it, at least based on reading the manga? I mean... I-I dunno! I would appreciate having some common cons towards the story cleared up is all.

Naruto doesn't need a kai.

DBZ's problem suffers from the slow pacing within the episodes themselves. Three minute stare-downs between Goku and Freiza with nothing happening, and stuff like that. This is the main reason people need to learn what 'filler' actually is. It's not 'stuff that isn't in the manga' it's literally 'stuff there to fill time and waste space' which is what all those power-up and stare-down shots are for in DBZ, to drag the episode out longer with not much happening. Naruto doesn't have this problem. So Naruto's random stints of 26 episodes of anime-only material isn't the same thing, especially when those episodes are actually part of the plot (like the Sora arc and Guren arc in Shippuden). If you really dislike them, you cna always skip those episodes, but you can't skip the stuff in DBZ without having your finger on the fast-forward button all the time and pressing it in 20 second intervals.

Hypeathon wrote:

What I'm just not understanding is if it's just a length issue or if there's something else more to it than that?

For me, personally, it's the uncertainty of an ending point.

Most of the shounen titles I've sought out to read or watch over the years have coincidentally been written to completion and subsequently converted into anime already. When I got into Naruto and Bleach, it was the first time I had encountered an ongoing series that, at that time, didn't look like it was ending any time soon.

I had enough on my plate to watch, catch up on, or newly pursue, and didn't want to drudge along chapter after chapter or episode after episode if it was just going to end whenever the mangaka or studio felt like they wanted it to, so I just dropped it.

Now don't me wrong, it was never an issue of what the actual story had turned into by those points that I stopped reading/watching. It was just a shift of time management and priorities (at least for me). Would I have found the actual source material as consistently entertaining? Maybe. But it's like any kind of game, hobby, or past time that requires time and dedication. And after grinding for a while, you either just need to take a break or put it down and move to something else entirely.

And no, I haven't read/seen One Piece, solely for that reason of uncertainty. It would take very-high-quality-something (writing, art, or whatever) to really keep me invested in ongoing titles. I'm on the fence in pursuing Berserk and Hajime no Ippo, but that's about it.

Last edited by Gatherum on Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:57 am; edited 3 times in total

All right, bear in mind that this is an easy question to answer, but not with few words. I have been over this before whenever Naruto came up, and therefore, I'm not going to do a comprehensive rant on it. I will, however, lay down a few points:

Where Dragonball Z filled out the time of an episode via staredowns, smacktalk, and drawn out powerups, Naruto does it by employing way too many flashbacks and narratives, often for things that didn't need elaboration, like how Naruto transformed into a shuriken and hid in the shadow of a real shuriken in order to surprise Zabuza: I got that when it was happening; I didn't need Naruto to go on a dumb, five- to ten-minute tangent about it.
Characters were very meticulously developed early on, which was one of Kishimoto's strong points, even though, once again, it did so through a fuckton of monologues and/or flashbacks. This collapsed at some point because Naruto eventually emerged as the sole protagonist of importance--not surprising, considering his titular nature, but still jarring because some themes or subplots were completely dropped or put on the backburner, and some characters are either not necessary anymore, or were never necessary to begin with. Kakashi, Shizune, and Hinata really, truly, did not need to survive Pain's attack. Kakashi taught the students and, afterword, pretty much did fudge-all except look cool and lay in a hospital bed because he can't handle his own Mangekyō. Shizune's relevance stopped after Tsunade became Hokage. Hinata was placed entirely on the backburner after she confessed. I don't hate any of them, but if they're not useful, my god, just kill them already. Make good on the whole "war is hell and people die over the hate and misunderstanding" theme. Further, you have a laundry list of people being brought back to life and in no case has it been necessary save to tie up secondary conflicts that were either satisfactory as they were, or didn't need to be mentioned at all. Gaara's backstory was fine the way it was without his father coming back from the dead to tell him that, in fact, they all loved him. Or something. Zabuza and Haku are great characters, but their chapter was written, read in its entirety, and closed. They didn't need to come back. Some villains of yore didn't serve any purpose--Hanzō, Rinkaku and Ginkaku, the previous generation of the Seven Swordsmen of the Mist, etc. They fought a little and got killed. Whoopdiedo. The series has just gone into a characterisation nightmare and it should not have gone for this long if it could not support or justify its various subplots.
What is the point of a well-developed and unique character if they're always just going to end up getting a peptalk from Naruto about determination and never giving up until they believe it (sorry, had to)? Pain really, REALLY pissed me off when this happened to him because all Naruto had to do was look at him confidently.

In general, it has been making use of very cheap plot devices and a lot of filler backstory involving shit nobody cares about. I wouldn't even have minded all of the zombies if they were more or less just mindless puppets, but no, they all have to have personalities... even if Kabuto has the ability to literally burn said personalities out of their brains and make them into mindless puppets.

One Piece doesn't get as many complaints because it's the same kind of voyage as seen in the various incarnations of Star Trek, save on a blue ocean, far less episodic (in the episode-to-episode sense), and far more silly. It, too, has a problem with killing people off, but it mitigates this by discarding those characters and letting their chapters close and stay closed, at least until such a time as they actually need to reappear, if ever. The main protagonist, Luffy, is a powerful, ass-kicking machine, and arguably more retarded than Naruto is, but is at least shown to have limits and is even willing to admit that: he cannot navigate, he cannot cook, he cannot repair the ship, he cannot nurse someone back to health, and there are some opponents that he, quite simply, cannot overcome because those opponents have abilities that he cannot match with his own. All of that allows for other characters to prove their worth and remain relevant. Nami has to be there to guide the ship, Franky has to be there to repair it, and Sanji has to prepare food for them so that they do not starve or otherwise eat shit. No character in the series so far feels unnecessary. Even the most useless characters serve as comic relief before being blasted into the sky.

One Piece may as well be an episodic adventure in the arc-to-arc sense: each new arc is treated like a new beginning, and each new location has rich lore, be it to further the overarching plot, or merely to amuse the viewer. Whatever the case, it remains fresh, which is why it can get away with its length and still be highly praised and regarded. Naruto has the geography, but not much substance, focusing instead on ninja techniques, its world, when you think about it, being rather haphazardly developed beyond factionalism.

The only problem it has is that some arcs can drag quite a bit. Skypeia could have done with about ten less episodes at least, and even Alabasta, my favourite arc, could have been wrapped up just a bit faster than it was. But at least it doesn't spend all of that extra time boring us with flashbacks and unneeded internal musings: it plays out its tragic elements by making its villains grotesquely inhumane and having them bring absolute misfortune to the hapless innocents. Its fights are composed of actual fighting for the majority of the time.

Not to mention that it seems to somehow place less emphasis on any profound character development without its characters appearing static or getting stale. I can't really put my finger on that point; I guess it's probably because Oda does the same with his characters' personalities and personal struggles that he does with their screentime: address it when it needs to be addressed, solve it when it needs to be solved, and drop it when it should be dropped.

Also, for being longer than its contemporaries, it also sports the most impressive canon/filler ratio, with less than 20% of it being filler.

To put it simply, it is structured and executed far more competently in essentially every way.

[EDIT: No need to quote big posts when your reply is going appear directly underneath it. Save quoting for chunks of a post or for posts further up or on other pages. Thanks. -TK]

Gatherum wrote:

Also, for being longer than its contemporaries, it also sports the most impressive canon/filler ratio, with less than 20% of it being filler.

That's because it's filler is the DBZ kind of stretching things out considerably.

As for the main reason it's not complained nearly as much: One Piece isn't as popular as Naruto in the west. So less people know about it. The more popular something is, the more haters and bashers it gets either through valid complaints or bandwagoners) No really really cares about One Piece as much so the complaints seem fewer. People need to keep this in mind; if no one knows about it, there's going to be less complaints generated from it. Naruto has more sites and forums dedicated to it, bigger sales numbers, and even on non-anime sites I see a Naruto sub-forum but not One Piece forum. It just has a bigger presence in the west, so the complaining seems more compared to One Piece which not nearly as many people watch. After all, you can't bash what you don't what-actually forget that last line, plenty of people bash shows they don't watch.

Trust me when I say you don't want a Naruto Kai. Dragon Ball Kai was the most half-assed thing Toei has done in years. Hope for an actual remake series, not some re-edit.

TitanXL wrote:

Gatherum wrote:

Also, for being longer than its contemporaries, it also sports the most impressive canon/filler ratio, with less than 20% of it being filler.

That's because it's filler is the DBZ kind of stretching things out considerably.

Naruto does this far worse than One Piece does, AND the full filler episodes that it has equates to roughly 49%, as stated... if I have it right, and I'm quite sure that I do. The amount of time the series spends flashbacking is comparable to DBZ's powerup sequences.

TitanXL wrote:

As for the main reason it's not complained nearly as much: One Piece isn't as popular as Naruto in the west. So less people know about it. The more popular something is, the more haters and bashers it gets either through valid complaints or bandwagoners) No really really cares about One Piece as much so the complaints seem fewer. People need to keep this in mind; if no one knows about it, there's going to be less complaints generated from it.

It's not exactly a small following either; both groups are quite large and you can tell from the stats her on the encyclopaedia:

Naruto: Seen in part or in whole by 15322 users, rank: #5 (of 5134); 7889 ratings have been given
Masterpiece: 1209 votes (sub:952, dub:206, ?:11, edit.dub:10, raw:5, Eng:1, others:24)
Excellent: 1883 votes (sub:1471, dub:334, edit.dub:12, raw:10, ?:6, Eng:1, others:49)
Very good: 1668 votes (sub:1289, dub:294, edit.dub:20, raw:9, ?:7, Eng:1, others:48)
Good: 1337 votes (sub:1007, dub:261, raw:7, edit.dub:7, ?:6, others:49)
Decent: 726 votes (sub:549, dub:139, ?:6, edit.dub:6, raw:4, Eng:2, others:20)
So-so: 282 votes (sub:188, dub:78, edit.dub:4, ?:1, others:11)
Not really good: 218 votes (sub:162, dub:47, raw:1, ?:1, others:7)
Weak: 234 votes (sub:148, dub:69, edit.dub:2, ?:2, others:13)
Bad: 107 votes (sub:64, dub:36, ?:1, raw:1, edit.dub:1, others:4)
Awful: 64 votes (sub:34, dub:21, ?:5, edit.dub:3, raw:1)
Worst ever: 161 votes (sub:94, dub:52, ?:6, edit.dub:4, raw:2, others:3)

Shippūden: Seen in part or in whole by 7696 users, rank: #39 (of 5134); 3262 ratings have been given
Masterpiece: 755 votes (sub:650, dub:77, raw:3, edit.dub:2, ?:2, others:21)
Excellent: 881 votes (sub:783, dub:69, edit.dub:2, raw:1, others:26)
Very good: 639 votes (sub:542, dub:59, raw:6, edit.dub:3, ?:1, others:28)
Good: 387 votes (sub:343, dub:25, raw:3, ?:2, edit.dub:1, others:13)
Decent: 211 votes (sub:184, dub:17, raw:1, edit.dub:1, others:8)
So-so: 89 votes (sub:73, dub:7, ?:1, others:8)
Not really good: 62 votes (sub:50, dub:6, ?:1, raw:1, others:4)
Weak: 85 votes (sub:77, dub:6, ?:1, others:1)
Bad: 49 votes (sub:36, dub:9, raw:1, others:3)
Awful: 35 votes (sub:27, dub:4, ?:1, raw:1, edit.dub:1, others:1)
Worst ever: 69 votes (sub:62, dub:4, ?:1, others:2)

It would seem that both halves are rated quite generously, even with the problems both of them have.

One Piece: Seen in part or in whole by 7292 users, rank: #48 (of 5134); 3006 ratings have been given
Masterpiece: 1119 votes (sub:969, dub:89, raw:11, ?:6, edit.dub:2, others:42)
Excellent: 579 votes (sub:460, dub:75, raw:8, edit.dub:7, ?:4, Eng:2, others:23)
Very good: 405 votes (sub:268, dub:100, raw:7, ?:3, edit.dub:3, Eng:1, others:23)
Good: 286 votes (sub:169, dub:84, edit.dub:13, raw:3, ?:1, others:16)
Decent: 149 votes (sub:75, dub:58, edit.dub:7, raw:1, others:8)
So-so: 162 votes (sub:74, dub:70, edit.dub:3, ?:2, others:13)
Not really good: 78 votes (dub:39, sub:28, edit.dub:5, others:6)
Weak: 90 votes (dub:41, sub:36, edit.dub:7, ?:1, others:5)
Bad: 46 votes (dub:25, sub:18, edit.dub:3)
Awful: 41 votes (dub:19, sub:18, edit.dub:2, others:2)
Worst ever: 51 votes (sub:21, dub:21, edit.dub:6, others:3)

As you can see, One Piece's overall fanbase is not far behind Shippūden's in terms of size. It is still significant enough to make a fair comparison. Also, it is, overall, rated fair higher. I'd say plenty of people know about it.

Of course, ANN's populace does not represent the entire anime community, but it does work as a statistical tool.

Primus wrote:

Trust me when I say you don't want a Naruto Kai. Dragon Ball Kai was the most half-assed thing Toei has done in years. Hope for an actual remake series, not some re-edit.

I wouldn't call a full digital cleanup to remove the plethora of artifacts, tears, and blemishes, hand-drawing replacements for broken segments, having all of the voice tracks re-recorded, having the soundtrack re-recorded (or trying to), editing the whole thing for fluidity, and rebroadcasting the whole thing in HD "half-assed." Frankly, I find it so much easier to watch. But, suit yourself.

Gatherum, the problem with that is there's so many factors in play to really use ANN's encyclopedia as a measure. Or really any online poll. Did the same amount of people vote? What's to say Naruto didn't get a bunch of troll votes from One Piece fanboys (no real surprise if it did, given the attitudes on these forums) Did Naruto/One Piece fans even bother to vote for their respective series? I didn't rate either series here, and I don't really care to. Maybe only the people who like One Piece feel the need to rate it to boost a meaningless rating on a random website? Or maybe since Naruto is more popular, more anime haters decide to downvote it so One Piece doesn't get those votes. Just the fact Naruto and Naruto Shippuden are separate are enough to make it a bad comparison. Sorry, but using ANN's encyclopedia rating isn't valid proof of anything any more than a poll on a Naruto Fansite of which series is better would be. Just the sheer popularity difference makes any polling inaccurate.

If Naruto is still making lots of money is 20 years or so, like DB. Which is very unlikely.

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