Forum - View topicNEWS: Toonami Promotes One Piece's Return With Rhyming Pirate
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Animehermit
Posts: 964 Location: The Argama |
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Like I said earlier, most of those shows use sexuality as a joke. Mostly because it's really funny to younger boys. It's not supposed to be some kind of "adult content" it's meant to be laughed at. It's funny when you realize Boa Hancock's power doesn't work on Luffy. Or when Naruto gives the teacher a nosebleed with his Sexy jutsu. It's not like. I mean, when Sanji is attracted to a girl, his eyes turn into hearts and he gets super-deformed. That's some cartoon shit right there. Like Divineking said before me, characters do develop romantic feelings in shounen, but they hardly ever actually act on them. Mostly because the author is afraid to piss off the fanbase. Characters on say, Young Justice for instance, would develop romantic feelings for each other. Then act on them and be in a relationship. We didn't see them get intimate, we didn't see any cleavage or nudity. We didn't need too though. Maturity doesn't come from the content of a show, it comes from how the show treats it's audience and it's characters. To use a few western shows as an example (geographically, not genre). It's like saying "Spartacus" is more mature than "Mad Men". "Spartacus" is filled with nudity, sex, gore and violence. "Mad Men" has no nudity, no gore and little violence. "Mad Men" is a mature show dealing with mature themes. "Spartacus" on the other hand is pure action pulp. There's nothing wrong with either form of entertainment, they both and can be fun to watch. But saying one is somehow more "adult" than the other based solely on it's content is ridiculous. |
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TitanXL
Posts: 4036 |
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Those shows are all still severely dumbed down for a child audience so I'm not sure what the point is. Obviously there will be some people who like them regardless, given every show has at least one person who likes it, but they're still not on the same level as the comics. And for some characters, like Starfire, Carnage, Punisher, or that Vampire in the old Spider-Man cartoon who had to absorb energy from people through his hands rather than actually drinking their blood, that pretty much means making them something else entirely. Though I must say though I do like the irony of old Teen Titan cartoon fans complaining about how the new Teen Titans cartoon is 'not the way these characters should be'. The mantle has been passed on to a new generation of complainers.
I just wanted to comment on the whole "dishonest portayal of teenagers" thing configspace mentioned and listed an example of a panel about that I remembered. And in that regard, then I would have to say yes, Japan does have more freedom to do that sort of thing compared to the west.
I don't think people are saying "hardcore blood and boobies automatically make a show good", I think people are saying that disallowing those things is a dishonest portrayal of reality and any subjects that are brought up in these shows. What is it about One Piece specifically that you like? Would you still like it if: no one was allowed to hit each other or even fight at all with their crazy and creative powers, the guns, swords and other weapons were removed, Oda's amazing sense of fashionable clothes were removed and the characters had to wear mundane, conservative clothing to prevent any kind of sexual thoughts among the viewers, all the more 'touchy' themes such as everyone's tragic past, the Alabasta War, Government conspiracies in Water 7 and the Marines, drug-addicted child soldiers in Punk Hazard were removed, and a lot of other stuff was changed? Or to summarize, if it was exactly like the 4Kids dub would you still enjoy it?
First off, romance and sexuality are two completely different things. Second, that's certainly debatable given the large amount of backlash I saw about the love-triangle in Korra, Young Justice, and Scooby Doo. People were ranting how it was the worst thing about those shows and took away from the actual "plot"; especially in Korra's case (though Velma competing with a dog in might be my personal pick for most obnoxiously forced love-triangle) It might appeal to some people, like those obsessive shippers who make up names for every pairing and couple, but you have to realize the relationships they portray are completely juvenile and in no way representative of how actual teenager and adult relationships play out. Personally, I'd argue that keeping your emotional desires in check and keeping your relationships with everyone completely professional and platonic in a serious environment, like say a war, is far more professional and mature. Shoehorning in some schoolyard crushing during a battle for the fate of the world seems far too melodramatic and "forced Hollywood romance subplot"-ish. Naruto taking a break every 2 episodes to discuss his love triangle with Sakura and Hinata while soldiers are dying left and right this world war and the fate of the world is at the balance would be groan-worthy, and would make moments like Hinata slapping some sense into him less impactful because it'd be all over the place. If I wanted actual pure romance, I'll go watch a romance anime, since series dedicated entirely to romance are going to flesh it out better compared to action shows shoehorning in love-triangles and shipping drama everywhere for the sake of appealing to some shipping crowd. Especially in a show like One Piece where actual romance just wouldn't fit given the tone and goofyness of the overall series, something even Oda himself said.
Your examples are pure speculation and looking for things that aren't there. I mean, rape in Ed, Edd, and Ed? Avatar? Sheesh, those situations are just played for laughs and building on the stereotype of how boys hate cooties so being kissed by a girl is the ultimate defeat. If anything, even if we assume those are ture (which they're not), all it would indicate is writers are interested in showing sex and rape but are unable to do so because of the censors. |
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PurpleWarrior13
Posts: 2027 |
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Ummm.... the shows I mentioned are HUGE in their respective fanbases, especially Batman: The Animated Series, which at one time, was shown in PRIME TIME on FOX, and is rated TV-PG (one of the first non-Simpsons cartoons to achieve that), and spawned a PG-13 animated movie. It dealt with very dark themes that are, to this day, still unmatched by anything animated. It was absolutely not "dumbed down". The show got high critical acclaim for it's very "mature writing" and for taking it's audience very seriously.
So suddenly everything has to be 100% realistic? While I don't have a problem with animated shows dealing with "teenager issues" (as long as they fit the show), I don't NEED them in my cartoons. Like I said before, a lot of the anime you say you watch doesn't feature that stuff either.
I can't speak for the other two, but in Scooby-Doo's case that was NOT supposed to be realistic. It was played for laughs, and was supposed to be funny. Can you imagine realistic sexual undertones in a show like Scooby-Doo? Velma competing with Scooby himself for Shaggy was the joke.
Can you imagine a show like Ed, Edd, n Eddy dealing with serious themes like rape? Come ON. That show didn't have ANYTHING serious in it at all (not that there's nothing wrong with that. The show was meant to be silly). For god's sake, the characters weren't even teenagers. The show was portraying Elementary-school kids FOR Elementary school kids, who don't even know what rape is (I know I didn't at that age). Elementary school kids DO deal with things like being kissed by a girl and cooties (I remember from when I was in Elementary school), and the show was just showing that in a silly manner. What's wrong with that? I still think it's crazy that you'd even THINK that the writers of Ed, Edd, n Eddy would want to show sex and rape. That's bizarre to even think about... |
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Divineking
Posts: 1293 |
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I understand romance and sexuality are two different things. I never said they weren't. Sexuality is rarely handled in ways other than comedy when it comes to shonen though so I'd still say that it comes off as being less handled less maturely than romance is in western stuff. Also a lot of the romance your complaining about tends to happen outside of battles and action sequences so I don't really know what your point is here. I'd say having no romantic tension at all between teenaged characters is far more unrealistic and while the addition of romance is sometimes met with negative opinion(and admittedly in some cases really is unnecessary) it's praised just as much if not more so(heck the way the romance between two of the characters in Green Lantern was handled was one of the most liked things about the show). Plus considering the amount of times fanservice is shoehorned into shonen (and often DURING actual fight scenes and for no reason other than to have it) I'd say romance tends to feel much more organic, especially since that tends to be a part of the actual storytelling whereas aforementioned fanservice tends to be there. Now I know romance obviously doesn't have a place in every story such as One Piece but for quite a few shonen series I'd say at least trying to handle it is far more welcome than just implying it or not going anywhere at all with it(the latter two tend to imply bad writing). The Naruto/Hinata/Sakura thing you mentioned is a perfect example of this since Hinata confessed to Naruto, only to have it never brought up again, which frankly is pretty bad writing. Yes there are important things going on in the series but the characters haven't been fighting 100% of the time between then and now. It wouldn't have killed Kishimoto to at least mention it again, and if he wasn't going to actually do much of anything with it it would have been better not to do that at all.
I did say that the Ed Edd n Eddy one was arguable, though the word "amorous" (which assuming you don't know the definition means "a desire for sexual love or romance") was used in the show to describe the Kankers' attraction to and assaults on the Eds so the implications are there and it's clearly more than a "girls have cooties" thing like your describing. The Avatar one is pretty also pretty valid(I don't know too many other ways you can interpret this, though by all means enlighten me), and in the same instance it would most likely just be implied in a shonen than outright shown like you seem to believe would be the case. Best example is the author of Shaman King having to confirm outside of the manga that Yoh and Anna did indeed have sex before the start of the Shaman tourney and that she was pregnant despite how freakishly obvious it was. They have to deal with censors too. |
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YotaruVegeta
Posts: 1061 Location: New York |
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I don't know exactly what you were getting at, but I guess, yes? Yes, One Piece is a fantasy show? |
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Hypeathon
Posts: 1176 |
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Not according to this guy. |
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YotaruVegeta
Posts: 1061 Location: New York |
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One Piece does have a lot of wisdom to impart.
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Crispy45
Posts: 363 |
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o_o you were talkin about content levels not maturity.
>_> I would bet 10 dollars One Piece has more adult viewers than Green Lantern does probably cause of its maturity
Kids Show Rule #2: death is okay as long as it happened in the past before the show began. Saying all the air nomads are dead is okay because it doesn't happen in the show itself. >_> but Zuko could never go around killing air people on screen. And they were in plenty of big battles in Avatar like when they had the eclipse and the final battle. Not a single causality in those is total bull. going out of their way to capture enemies rather than just kill them was totally unrealistic. In Avatar when they show you all the crazy contraptions they have to make just to keep people from bending in prison and it'd be just easier to kill them make it more silly as well. Then they cop out with that take away bending thing for the finale and then in Korra to replace actual killing yet with all the drama you'd think they were still being killed rather than losing their superpowers o_O; even that was seen as still too dark for kids since they all get their powers back at the end of the day anyway. it's just hard to take an action show seriously when there's no real action or consequences to anyones actions
You can actually show dead bodies in anime just fine so anime never has to imply all its death through explosions and off screen bodies.
RAPE?! o_O; Seriously? That's totally bogus man. You're really reaching with that Avatar thing too. And physical attraction is limited to kissing in toons and nothing carnal or at least sexual. everything else is just conjecture or made up by fans to seem more adult than it really is. at best maybe making out but you'll never see teenager discussing if they're ready to have sex or third base or anymore more than that. I guess in these worlds all teenagers have a liking to do is kissing x_x |
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Animehermit
Posts: 964 Location: The Argama |
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That point about death would have been more poignant if One Piece hadn't waited 500 episodes to actually show characters dying. It literally didn't show a single character death until that point.
This completely misses the point of why people like One Piece. It's not it's maturity, it's the sense of adventure. People watch One Piece because it makes them feel like a kid, they get caught up in the world and the adventure.
There's a difference between not showing something and it not being there at all. Maturity is not about the content of a show, it's about how it treats it's audience and it's characters. Shows like Green Laturn and Young Justice don't have to show adult content for it to be mature. I know for a fact that there was something more than "making out" going on in Young Justice. They didn't need to show any of that though, it wasn't important to the plot of the show. What was important was the fact that those characters were in a relationship.
Lastly, you are talking about maturity. You keep mentioning it. You are equating maturity with content. |
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PurpleWarrior13
Posts: 2027 |
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Bellemere says hi. It showed Arlong fatally shooting her in a long flashback around episode 30-something. Definitely one of the more tearjerker moments of the series. |
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Animehermit
Posts: 964 Location: The Argama |
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It also happens in a flashback, which is something Crispy45 was complaining about in western shows. |
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Myaow
Posts: 1068 |
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I thought this was a good observation! I feel that gags like "Nobita accidentally barges in on his crush in the shower" in Doraemon or "Aladdin grabs people's boobs" in Magi are used in the same way the butt jokes and crotch-kicking jokes in something like Hotel Transylvania are-- they're goofy puerile potty humor, not titillation. It's true that jokes like that aren't really a hallmark of the USA Low-Brow Cartoon Jokes Lexicon and you can debate whether that's because USA people take sex too seriously or whatever, but I don't think you can argue that the nosebleed jokes in One Piece or Naruto make them necessarily more "mature" than USA cartoons, since the jokes themselves are hardly "mature"! |
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TitanXL
Posts: 4036 |
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"Huge in their respective fanbases" seems like a given since I assume people who liked the show would like the show. How many actually adult fans (who were adults when it originally aired, not now) actually exist though? Probably not in any noticible number. Also, despite airing on prime-time it was short lived due to horrendous ratings, indicating not many people cared for it in that slot. And simply saying it's 'unmatched' doesn't mean it's good. The comics, and certain extent, the movies, were able to explore things better due to not being limited in a kids show setting. It might have been better than other kids show adaptions, but that doesn't make it good.
It doesn't have to be realistic, just not dishonest. Characters in anime can still showcase their own sexuality, or at least acknowledge it exists, even kid shows.
A 'joke' they dragged on for episodes on end to the point of it taking over a lot of stuff. That's kind of the thing, it feels like there's some obligation to force a love dynamic into a ton of shows even if it doesn't fit.
That's why I said it was absurd to think they would do that.
Just because it happens outside of battle doesn't make it a good time to delve into it. Naruto is still in a war regardless if he's actively fighting anyone right that minute or not. What person outside of a character in a melodrama is going to devote their precious few moments of downtime to discussing relationship issues? He's already got his hands full finding out which of his friends are dead or not, or rushing to get to the different battlefields betwene the platoons to help out. They can deal with that stuff after the war if they want.
I don't see how anyone can look at the picture and not take it as a joke. It's way too over the top and silly to be anything remotely serious. You see that kind of 'over the top romantic guy' act in a lot of cartoons, and most of the time it ends with them being kissed at most. It just seems like people again trying to project sex into a children's cartoon. Remember, this is the show where their ideas of swimsuits are conservative skirts with shorts and halter tops. Sex really has no place in it.
To be fair, I think there's a little bit of a difference than saying "my ancient race passed away 100 years ago" in passing and actively showing a woman get shot point-blank with a shotgun on screen with her insides get blown behind her as she slumps to the floor dead. |
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Animehermit
Posts: 964 Location: The Argama |
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It got around showing most of it by reverting to black and white. Also, One Piece notoriously has people live through heroic sacrifices. Like the bird guy with the bomb. I should clarify my earlier statement though. One Piece only has characters die in flashbacks for the first 500 episodes. It's only fairly recently that Oda started killing off cast members. |
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PurpleWarrior13
Posts: 2027 |
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I meant that they're huge in their comic book fandoms. What else did you think I was talking about. You do realize you're talking about freakin BATMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES here, one of the most HIGHLY renowned animated shows of all time. You're in the deep minority who doesn't like it. It's safe to say that close to the ENTIRE Batman fandom appreciates this show, and has highly praised it's art, it's storytelling, it's voice acting (especially Kevin Conroy as Batman and Mark Hamill as the Joker) it's writing, it's music (brilliantly composed by the equally brilliant Shirley Walker. This show's music is the best of any cartoon ever made), and of course it's animation, all of them supervised by the amazing Bruce Timm and Paul Dini. Hell, the DVDs are even filled with documentaries, storyboards, and audio commentaries that explain all this better than me. BTW, I will also point out that Sunrise and TMS (among others) worked on the show. It was even popular in Japan (also featuring A-list seiyu like Tessho Genda as Batman, the late Takesho Aono as the Joker, and Megumi Hayashibara as Batgirl/Barbara Gordon). Also the recent highly praised Batman video games (Arkham Asylum and Arkham City) pay quite a bit of homage to Batman: TAS, and even brought back Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill to reprise their roles. On FOX, the show was competing with 60 Minutes, and the ratings fell short as a result. I was mostly pointing that out though to show you that the creators of the show WERE trying to market it to an adult audience as well. Also, the comic books themselves took inspiration from it by using some of it's characters, specifically Harley Quinn, who's become a superhero villain icon into herself. She debuted in Batman: TAS. Jesus, is there any American cartoon that you LIKE?
There's also nothing wrong with shows choosing not to deal with stuff like sexuality either. There is nothing that says that each and every show has to touch upon it in their writing. It's certainly not a necessary thing for shows to touch-up on...
Whether you feel the joke was funny or not is entirely up to you (actually, I myself find it over-the-top), but it was indeed intended to be funny. How can a girl competing with a dog for the same guy be anything otherwise?
The show was treating things like cooties and "being kissed by a girl" to be a funny thing anyway. Dealing with serious issues like rape don't really belong in shows like EEE at all... (Certainly rape can not and should not be played for laughs either) Last edited by PurpleWarrior13 on Sat May 18, 2013 4:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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