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ktarf
Joined: 30 Jun 2024
Posts: 48
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Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2024 9:43 am
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Great episode, though ending the season so abruptly is not ideal. I don't know how can anybody dislike Jiji, he's such a genuinely great guy and the friend that Okarun needed.
Overall, amazing show, by far my favorite from this season. There's no way I can wait 6 months, so it's time to read the manga.
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Amuro1X
Joined: 02 Sep 2009
Posts: 214
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Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2024 9:45 am
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As cruel as this cliffhanger was, the way Momo gets out of her predicament is really great, and this arc is just insane. There's already a preview out, which tells me the 2 coure break is more about TV scheduling in Japan rather than production delays, especially considering that all of coure one was already completed before it ever aired. In that sense, episode 12 isn't REALLY a finale at all, it just has the unenviable role of being the final episode for now.
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tintor2
Joined: 11 Aug 2010
Posts: 2177
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Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2024 11:05 am
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I really liked the series but it seems the author really loves going too far. I think there were there attempts of sexual assaults to minors in a single cour. 2 with Momo and 1 for Okarun
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MemoBookworm
Joined: 09 Jul 2015
Posts: 30
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Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2024 4:20 pm
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Wow I've enjoyed the series up to now but that cliffhanger left a bad taste in my mouth. I gave the first attempted rape scene a pass because it was so fantastical, but this one both felt more real and cutting it like that was just plain gross. So we have to spend like six months wondering if Momo is going to be raped??? Apparently in the manga it's resolved almost immediately as well, so that makes me lose a lot of trust in the people adapting this show.
I'll be back for the second season, but that definitely cooled my enthusiasm.
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yeehaw
Joined: 09 Sep 2018
Posts: 596
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Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2024 5:01 pm
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MemoBookworm wrote: | Wow I've enjoyed the series up to now but that cliffhanger left a bad taste in my mouth. I gave the first attempted rape scene a pass because it was so fantastical, but this one both felt more real and cutting it like that was just plain gross. So we have to spend like six months wondering if Momo is going to be raped??? Apparently in the manga it's resolved almost immediately as well, so that makes me lose a lot of trust in the people adapting this show.
I'll be back for the second season, but that definitely cooled my enthusiasm. |
Yeah I feel the same, although I'm not worrying about if Momo is going to actually get raped, obviously she wont, but still this is really icky.
Those men are to the viewer obviously not normal people, but to Momo they're just some middle aged men attacking her in the bath and that's scary.
My only gripe with this show were the attempted assaults, they felt like the beginnings off some very NSFW mob x high scool girl rape fantasy doujinshi that somehow got into this otherwise 10/10 supernatural romance/battle show.
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Iron Maw
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 537
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Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2024 8:38 pm
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MemoBookworm wrote: | Wow I've enjoyed the series up to now but that cliffhanger left a bad taste in my mouth. I gave the first attempted rape scene a pass because it was so fantastical, but this one both felt more real and cutting it like that was just plain gross. So we have to spend like six months wondering if Momo is going to be raped??? Apparently in the manga it's resolved almost immediately as well, so that makes me lose a lot of trust in the people adapting this show.
I'll be back for the second season, but that definitely cooled my enthusiasm. |
I mean its supposed to be uncomfortable? There is no titillation, luring camera shots or jokes. Its taken as seriously as Turbo Granny or Serops trying to kill Momo and Okarun because this town is fact really dangerous. Having an scene like that is fine as long as it not explicit and treated with gravitas. Showing the best & worst of humanity as been a core theme of DDD, you saw this ep7 as well where a is mother abused and her child stolen from her sold while died from suicide and blood loss. Hell climax of very first arc started from a tunnel several teenage grils assaulted and murdered.
Momo's situation tame as hell compared to all that especially because like Okarun and she have main character privilege of where nothing seriously bad (i.e killed, raped, molested, tortured or otherwise) will ever happened to them, so there is no need to pretend the show is going go that far. I think DDD has handled the subject matter well enough without acting as what happening is ok. It highlights human and non-humans involved are an actual threat and have done awful things to get where they are. So this is enough make you lose trust in staff afterall that you just never had it been regardless how felt about it deep down.
But really not in DDD nature to seriously harm its cast which should be obvious at this point, just sets stakes what could happen if they fail so that their triumphs feels meangful. Instead just being equivalent to conflict in a carebear show lol. So even I hadn't read the manga beforehand I already know Momo would escape from that predicament as she has in every other one she's been in.
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NeverConvex
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Joined: 08 Jun 2013
Posts: 2584
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Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2024 9:19 pm
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I don't think it's bad that it felt real or dangerous; and, while there were 100%, absolutely fan-service shots and angles in the episode 1 scene, there weren't any here (though the scene's only really just begun, of course), which was a welcome change.
But, I think what rubs me the wrong way about this one is specifically that it is being used as a cliffhanger, which feels like a superficial reason to throw another sexual assault at Momo (or any of the cast). The Episode 1 instance had some nice re-contextualization later that helped -- learning about Turbo Baba's concern for sexually abused and murdered women really tied together nicely her behavior in the spaceship, as someone pointed out earlier, and that narrative tie-in really strengthened the use of it in a way that made it feel more meaningful, for me.
I guess it's possible we'll get something like that here, 7+ months from now, which may ease my apprehension about it, but it'll be hard to get over the feeling that sexual assault is starting to feel like it is being used pretty frivolously. Which is a bit frustrating, because literally everything else about Dan da Dan is pretty much perfect. Distantly reminds me of the weird, unexpected sexualization of kids in Made in Abyss, another show that felt almost-perfect-except-for-this-one-thing-that-oh-god-now-I-have-to-mention-every-time-I-want-to-recommend-it-to-someone.
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Iron Maw
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 537
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Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2024 10:15 pm
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NeverConvex wrote: | I don't think it's bad that it felt real or dangerous; and, while there were 100%, absolutely fan-service shots and angles in the episode 1 scene, there weren't any here (though the scene's only really just begun, of course), which was a welcome change.
But, I think what rubs me the wrong way about this one is specifically that it is being used as a cliffhanger, which feels like a superficial reason to throw another sexual assault at Momo (or any of the cast). The Episode 1 instance had some nice re-contextualization later that helped -- learning about Turbo Baba's concern for sexually abused and murdered women really tied together nicely her behavior in the spaceship, as someone pointed out earlier, and that narrative tie-in really strengthened the use of it in a way that made it feel more meaningful, for me.
I guess it's possible we'll get something like that here, 7+ months from now, which may ease my apprehension about it, but it'll be hard to get over the feeling that sexual assault is starting to feel like it is being used pretty frivolously. Which is a bit frustrating, because literally everything else about Dan da Dan is pretty much perfect. Distantly reminds me of the weird, unexpected sexualization of kids in Made in Abyss, another show that felt almost-perfect-except-for-this-one-thing-that-oh-god-now-I-have-to-mention-every-time-I-want-to-recommend-it-to-someone. |
I can definitely see if one views what happening to Momo in vacuum, but the episode thankfully juxtaposition the onsen scene with Okarun and Jiji's unsettling discover about the later's house. In between that see the creepy group that has been shadowing the trio ever since they arrived in the town drawing closer to the house. The men with Momo also look to be from the same group since they share the same skin tone & creepy smilies so they clear followed her after she split from the guys. With the way the same music is being used for both events, conveying the idea that these people and confrontation is about break out with build up. We only see Momo's scene first because she's alone and more vulnerable due to where she is thus the easier target and likely connect Okarun and Jiji's own imminent peril. Maybe its because at this stage medium I've seen far worse handling SA lots, that DDD's just more like set-dressing as every other perceived conflict in the story.
So feels it get played up to be more than what is. I from hubbub wouldn't surprised someone who knows nothing about DDD thinks Momo actually gets raped and that's show is about from that where stuff like this in ep 1, ep 8 (Okarun getting stripped almost probed) and ep 12 are minor scenes that just set the stakes and play into broader themes of our new antagonists. I think would be more trust towards the creators this far in that nothing inappropriate for television or a mainstream manga is going to happen.
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medicinodestiny
Joined: 16 Nov 2022
Posts: 49
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Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2024 10:46 pm
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I don't mind fanservice pandering. I like the assault scenes myself. But it makes me wonder where cour 2 will end off. There's a number of places I could see them doing a similar thing if they're fine with cliffhanger endings.
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MFrontier
Joined: 13 Apr 2014
Posts: 14258
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Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2024 11:34 pm
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I have to commend Science Saru, the voice cast (both JP and ENG), and everyone involved for just really knocking it out of the park and delivering such a phenomenal adaption of an already amazing manga. They really delivered on what is expected of an anime adaption of really elevating the source material.
And also, to Dandadan, mad respect for being such an amazing mix of genre's, most of all genuine teen romance with supernatural/sci-fi battle shonen. We even got it becoming a soccer anime.
I will say this is probably one of the less ideal places for them to end the season knowing how long Momo will be stuck there...
I honestly never realized until I watched the anime how much sexual assault situations happen in this series or how often Momo ends up without clothes on for one reason or another.
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Iron Maw
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 537
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Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2024 11:55 pm
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medicinodestiny wrote: | I don't mind fanservice pandering. I like the assault scenes myself. But it makes me wonder where cour 2 will end off. There's a number of places I could see them doing a similar thing if they're fine with cliffhanger endings. |
Key visual implies that season 2 will end with the Kaiju arc and possible Volma reveal so yeah there be more cliffhangers, but not as brutal as this one.
Otherwise onsen scene is last time we see anything near this suggestive. But there will be other disturbing dark stuff of a different natures. Tatsu isn't one trick pony when comes to that stuff.
MFrontier wrote: | I honestly never realized until I watched the anime how much sexual assault situations happen in this series or how often Momo ends up without clothes on for one reason or another. |
Actually its been pretty balance in the regard. In fact Momo has never been stark naked like Okarun for several episodes either. So if anything I'm more blaffed by the focus on her. Moreover there is basically next no fanservice because its all been plot-driven (clothing damage, water resistance), rather something like Mono crutch flying into Okarun's face and him making lewd comments or betting flushed like a your a ecchi harem. We even have a scene with Momo and Okarun begging Seiko to buy new uniforms to punctuate the inconveniences they both experienced at end of their encounters.
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Juno016
Joined: 09 Jan 2012
Posts: 2436
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Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2024 1:46 am
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I binged the whole series this week and I haven't been a part of the discussion around SA or fanservice, so I hope I'm not repeating anything already said. I also couldn't wait to see the end of the cliffhanger, so I read a bit further, past the mirror youkai bit.
So, for one, Dandadan is a shounen... right? It feels like one. But also, I'm actually impressed with the fact that it treats Momo like a central cast member, if not the star. Shounen not made by women have bad track records with putting female characters truly in the spotlight, even when they are major characters.
On the flip side, I'm not "bothered" by fan service and fictional depictions of SA, and I am generally fine and sometimes indulgant when a series markets itself as a fanservice series, going in with expectations and appropriate age ratings. But something about its use in Dandadan feels... off? Like, is the series trying to take SA seriously? Or is it just being used for shock value + excuses to draw the guys and girls in their underwear? I can see the Turbo Granny situation as looooose commentary, but a lot of the rest of it just feels exploitative. It's a shame because I do like the anime so far, and its female characters are otherwise fun and relatable. It just feels like too much of the show's sexuality exists on a surface level of fan service, despite the show seeming more than capable of deeper, more critical engagement with the topic.
On the cliffhanger, I read ahead. I still don't get the point of the scene with the men attacking Momo in the bath as anything other than these men are unsettling and thus do unsettling things, like target a teenage girl when she's naked. Like, sure, I know why they attacked Momo now. But that could have been done in so many other ways. The scene seems overtly set up to insinuate SA for the sake of exploiting Momo. I don't like it.
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Iron Maw
Joined: 29 May 2008
Posts: 537
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Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2024 3:24 am
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Juno016 wrote: | I binged the whole series this week and I haven't been a part of the discussion around SA or fanservice, so I hope I'm not repeating anything already said. I also couldn't wait to see the end of the cliffhanger, so I read a bit further, past the mirror youkai bit.
So, for one, Dandadan is a shounen... right? It feels like one. But also, I'm actually impressed with the fact that it treats Momo like a central cast member, if not the star. Shounen not made by women have bad track records with putting female characters truly in the spotlight, even when they are major characters.
On the flip side, I'm not "bothered" by fan service and fictional depictions of SA, and I am generally fine and sometimes indulgant when a series markets itself as a fanservice series, going in with expectations and appropriate age ratings. But something about its use in Dandadan feels... off? Like, is the series trying to take SA seriously? Or is it just being used for shock value + excuses to draw the guys and girls in their underwear? I can see the Turbo Granny situation as looooose commentary, but a lot of the rest of it just feels exploitative. It's a shame because I do like the anime so far, and its female characters are otherwise fun and relatable. It just feels like too much of the show's sexuality exists on a surface level of fan service, despite the show seeming more than capable of deeper, more critical engagement with the topic.
On the cliffhanger, I read ahead. I still don't get the point of the scene with the men attacking Momo in the bath as anything other than these men are unsettling and thus do unsettling things, like target a teenage girl when she's naked. Like, sure, I know why they attacked Momo now. But that could have been done in so many other ways. The scene seems overtly set up to insinuate SA for the sake of exploiting Momo. I don't like it. |
DDD has only has two specifics examples of SA their important to establishing things in their arcs. The one in episode is related to TG's motivation for being that tunnel and saving Momo as mentioned. The second in ep 12 is to make clear what kind of power dynamics are at work in Jiji's town. Gonna spoiler tag this because it won't touch upon till next season but as hinted by those men this thing is common thing there. Kito family holds a lot of influence in Danji Town and use they status as cult leaders, landlords and protectors of its land from Death Worm to abuse their position. They have been murdering and even sometimes raping people for 200 years under that guise. An example of this once the Kito men who attempted to assault Momo where caught by city officials brought to police, they were literally freed the next moment later, showing how even the local authorities are under their thumb. Furthermore the other reason they attacked Momo is because they going use her, Okarun, Jiji and his parents as the next sacrifices. Those men who went after Momo simply going have some fun with torturing her before they handed to matriarch to be eaten by the worm since she is gonna die anyway. You also see this when Momo finds Okarun and Jiji abused by them and she fight them off. They don't need to do all that but they do\id it because they are cruel people on a powertrip and nobody in town can stop them. They are even more horrible than Serpos who at least just went after humans in order to fix the issue with their race.
None of the that is outta of nowhere of series which have touched up similiar content prior to that point, and that's not even getting to thing that is haunting Jjiji. In fact the Kito family is why Evil Eye wants all humans dead without exception, its a byproduct of their crimes. I don't know how far you have read so I won't say that much more than that.
I don't get how any of that idea is something just there exploit her with all that context. Especially in the light of the fact that Momo is author favorite character and at end of part of this arc, the antagonists see her, not Okarun or Jiji as biggest threat for good reason. I'm mean someone who dropped GS anime because it does exactly thing people hate about SA being in stories, being excuse to indulgent in the author's rape fantasies with flimsy excuse. DDD use of SA on the otherhand is extremely rare and use no more as plot and theme device. I get that SA uncomfortable even with context, but that's why and how its done matters more becasue it still valid narrative tool use. Plus Momo is only comparmized for like barely a minute nor is framed in a sexual manner, just a matter of fact of kind of people who our trio is dealing with. Frankly Okarun is the one who has worse here as he was effectively humiliated after Serpo made an attempt on him (not mention having to be saved by girls) and yet nobody being disturbed by what happened to Momo bats an eyelash towards him despite being attack by same beings Momo was for the same reasons.
In anycase its not something should taking over episode discussions given its among the tamest depiction of SA in media and its obvious Momo will get out of it. But that unfortunate and unintended nature of anime stopping where it did which is still fine under that context IMO meant build up tension. But as I said before, as someone who grew up on classical stories and novels dealt with things made me uncomfortable sometimes that didn't necessary make them bad.
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NeverConvex
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Joined: 08 Jun 2013
Posts: 2584
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Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2024 6:51 am
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re: "shouldn't dominate discussion"---there's not a ton else to comment on, to be fair? The finale was mostly setup. The only other really interesting thing in it was Okarun and Jiji's tiff over who's more into Momo (/subtext of who she's more into). That scene was great, though; it's refreshing for them to make that little emotional rivalry explicit, but also without it determining their every interaction.
It also had me idly wondering if DDD would pass a reverse Bechdel test. Does Okarun ever really have conversations with other people that aren't about Momo (or Aira)? I guess the little sequence where he notices the extra room in the house at the end of this episode and breaks into it with Jiji counts, but not many scenes come to mind; reinforces the sense that, if I had to pick one person as "the main character" of DDD, it would probably be Momo.
Also, man, I am going to miss the OP and ED from this first season; I don't know how they'll be able to top them, or even compete with them. I listen to the OP / ED a ton every time I go jogging, and, for the first time more-or-less ever, never skip the OP when watching. And, that sequence of stylized-palette facial expressions in the opening---good lord, I need an oversized poster featuring a collage of those, stat. Okarun's downturned, yellow-tinted glasses look so much cooler than they have any right to.
Iron Maw wrote: | I'm mean someone who dropped GS anime because it does exactly thing people hate about SA being in stories, being excuse to indulgent in the author's rape fantasies with flimsy excuse. |
Oh, GS is way worse about it, certainly. Despite that I have complained about how DDD handles sexual assault, the way it uses it is not even in the same order of magnitude of gross as something like GS.
Iron Maw wrote: | DDD use of SA on the otherhand is extremely rare and use no more as plot and theme device. |
I mean, it's happened 2-3 (3, if you think of the surgical attack on Okarun as kind of SA-adjacent, even if strictly speaking the aliens didn't intend it sexually) times in just 12 episodes. "Extremely rare" is awfully charitable.
Iron Maw wrote: | I get that SA uncomfortable even with context, but that's why and how its done matters more becasue it still valid narrative tool use. Plus Momo is only comparmized for like barely a minute nor is framed in a sexual manner, just a matter of fact of kind of people who our trio is dealing with... But as I said before, as someone who grew up on classical stories and novels dealt with things made me uncomfortable sometimes that didn't necessary make them bad. |
This is kind of an insulting description of the arguments you're trying to address. I don't think anyone is saying, "Oh, this is uncomfortable. That makes it bad.", nor "Shows should never depict sexual assault." I think the issue is whether it feels exploitative/frivolous, not whether it is uncomfortable. i.e., is the show using it because it's convenient, because it thinks it's sexy or hilarious, or because it wants to engage with it earnestly as a serious issue?
Last edited by NeverConvex on Sun Dec 22, 2024 9:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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ktarf
Joined: 30 Jun 2024
Posts: 48
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Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2024 7:47 am
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I mean, almost everything in the show is treated as frivolous (except episode 7), that's what makes its humour and part of its charm. Like, in this final scene I was laughing at how these zombie-like dudes are drawn as the most generic, cliched and stereotipycal image of a middle-aged Japanese salary man, while speaking the most obvious and predictable words, and that's intentional and funny in itself. It works precisely because it's a scene that would be the laziest attempt at tension in a badly written, self-serious excuse of a show, but it's positioned in such a whirlwind of absurdity and silliness that something so generic clashes hard enough to become goofy and tie into the comedy and tone.
Just like all other scenes of danger, I'm not here worried about whether Momo can escape her situation or not, like I would in another show with a different tone, but rather I'm excited to see what she's going to bring out this time and what craziness is behind this villains. The tone is crafted in such a way to offset the tension from the standard "will our heroes make it" to "what kind of nonsense is the show about to pull?". I know it sounds bad when I put it like that, and it would be bad in a serious show, but it works great here thanks to how tight the comedy and humour are and how well the writing integrates them.
I hope what I said makes sense, I really tried hard to explain my feelings because it looks to me like many people have kind of double standard when it gets to anything remotely sexual. Comedic depictions of normally serious stuff are nothing new and can absolutely work well given the right tone, which I feel this show nailed almost perfectly.
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