Forum - View topicMacross Plus Movie Edition by Manga
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skullone
Posts: 104 Location: Greece |
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BW solicited Tatsunoko to DISTRIBUTE Macross worldwide. Tatsunoko allegedly SOLD Macross to HG. You can't sell something you don't have, plain and simple. Every law says that.
Perhaps RT's existence isn't affected by the court rulings in Japan. Are you sure, though? I know that a certain person had gotten permission from HG to use the VF-1 design in a book on 3D graphics with the VERITECH name, but after the court ruling in Japan, HG told him to use the Alpha instead. Of course, this entire chapter is not going in the book now. HG's actions against the smaller retailers are not only unethical, but are barefaced BLACKMAIL. And I suggest you start getting more reliable info, from other sources, instead of taking HG's word for it. What the hell, HG and Carl Macek even said that Macross was a FAILURE in Japan and Robotech's airing helped it become successful and that Macross' sequels in Japan were failures. See Carl Macek's interview to Akadot in June 2001 for this. |
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Case
Posts: 1016 |
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Every law doesn't say that. As far as the law goes, only copyright laws (in some parts of the world) say that. Nobody disputed Tatsunoko's right to sell Harmony Gold the Macross license at the time. Harmony Gold went looking for the company they could buy the license from, and ended up being lead to Tatsunoko. Therefore, Harmony Gold can't be held responsible because for all they could have known, they had completed a totally legitimate business deal. It's just like any other case where the rules change after the fact. The person who acted within the set parameters and did what they were told under the old system can't be punished under the new system. 18 Year olds in the United States who purchased alcohol before the legal age changed to 21 couldn't be punished for their prior purchases. Similarly, Harmony Gold can't be forced to "un-produce" Robotech because they were instructed to buy their license from the wrong company. Tatsunoko is the one that messed up, and they are the ones who will have to make restitution to Big West. Harmony Gold did was they were supposed to, and have no reason to suffer for Tatsunoko's error.
There is almost no way Robotech's existance could be effected by a court ruling, especially one overseas. It's production is already complete, and the series has already been marketed several times over the past 20 years or so. There's really nothing left that could be stopped, aside from additional merchandise sales. And considering the fact that Harmony Gold has been marketing the series legally on and off for almost 20 years now, I think it would take some pretty serious accusations to get a court to force them cease and desist this late in the game. 
What? Don't tell me you're serious. Blackmail? Blackmail them into doing what? Working as sweatshop labor for Harmony Gold? Come on. Do you honestly believe that, or are you just tossing up emotional rhetoric to make your argument sound stronger? Because I see no logical basis for that conclusion at all... 
Alright then, tell me. What sources do you consider to be more reliable than Animenewsservice.com, Animenation.com, and this site? Are MacrossWorld's opinionated editorials more trustworthy than Cookie and Tempest's news reports? Don't trash my sources; I'm not trashing yours. As for "taking HG's word for it"... How can you find yourself justified in accusing me of that, when you just cited Mr. Macek yourself? If you wish to continue to discuss this logically, I would be more than happy to exchange opinions with you. However, if you wish to bash my sources and suggest such outlandish things as Harmony Gold blackmailing third party manufacturers, I will not waste any more of my minimal posting time debating this issue with you. |
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Hagakure
Posts: 111 Location: Connecticut |
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I wouldn't honestly say that I am an authority on anything involving these series, cause that would be a lie. What I do know however is that what Carl Macek did helped the anime industry in the States (I cannot speak for Greece.) Macek wanted at least something to be brought over here, and the broadcast standards didn't allow the full Macross, (or something like that)
So if you want to blame anyone, Aku Soku Zan and blame the broadcast standards of the eighties, cause they are responsible for inspiring Robotech. |
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skullone
Posts: 104 Location: Greece |
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Name me one review in MW that's partial to anyone. Let's take toys: So far, a vast majority of Macross fans was in love with Takatoku/Bandais. But still, Graham was not too favorable to the Bandai reissue. Or was he kissing up to Yamato? The reviews and updates are always there.
In fact, they even did HG a favor or two, by actively promoting the Animeigo DVDs and even the Super Poseables and the MPC. And how did HG respond? They ban EVERYONE that criticises the MPC on the RT.com forums, EVERYONE that doesn't like their actions etc. And, of course, we have their action against Blasto Toys and Valkyrie Exchange. Care to explain to me why they went after these small retailers (careful) instead of other, bigger companies? I know that Frank and Son sells the Yamato TV 1/60 VF-1J Super - HG didn't go after them, obviously. Or is Scott T. Hards of HLJ partial? Perhaps you'd care to tell me if the Hasegawa dealers in England and Greece - who don't know what Macross is - are partial? The latter are the people who informed me of HG's blocking of the Hasegawa Valks in Europe, although it is OBVIOUS that they had no legal right to do so, as Hasegawa made (at that time) the DYRL version of the Valks (and HG does NOT have the DYRL license). So, stick to the facts. And as for me citing HG, I didn't cite them as a reliable source, but pointing out that they were lying off their teeth. |
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skullone
Posts: 104 Location: Greece |
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As far as I know, Robotech wasn't the first anime broadcasted in the USA. |
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Hagakure
Posts: 111 Location: Connecticut |
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Did I ever say it was? I didn't mean that it was the first, but it did take a step further in the industry here. Robotech was a universally accepted show that had a very diverse fanbase. It helped to grow an appreciation of anime here and fostered the fanbase. As I said, I cannot speak for your country, perhaps it is not considered to be a staple series there, but the States have made good of its forthcoming by creating more American otakus. Last edited by Hagakure on Thu Jun 06, 2002 8:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Case
Posts: 1016 |
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How about their review of Harmony Gold's Macross - Volume 1 release for starters? "Though it sounds hard to believe, Harmony Gold originally intended on releasing Super Dimension Fortress Macross in virtually complete form..." "We are also introduced to a little bit of the cheesy voice acting that would be common in Robotech (any moment I was expecting Rick to blurt out, 'Gee golly willickers, Batman, oops, I mean Roy!' LOL:)) and Carl Macek's 'styling' of adding dialogue where it previously didn't belong..." That's two biased comparisons and one personal shot to Macek in one single-page review. The rest of the site is pretty much the same when the subject of Harmony Gold and/or Macek must be brought up, especially in the forums. But MacrossWorld is a hardcore Macross site, after all; not a Robotech site. That is only to be expected.
That's only to be expected also, because Harmony Gold isn't producing the new Macross DVDs. The only way they relate to Harmony Gold at all is by virtue of the fact that AnimEigo sublicensed the series from them. And only a total goofball extremist would frown on a release for a reason like that. A good product is a good product, regardless of the reputation of the license holder(s).
I don't know anything about Blasto Toys or Valkyrie Exchange, so I cannot address the facts of that case specifically. However, I can tell you that in general the smaller manufacturers are usually the ones to suffer because they are the ones who violate the copyrights most often. Bigger companies like Bandai (just for example) have their products examined more frequently, and stand to lose a lot if they are taken the court. Therefore, they don't make illegal products, and Harmony Gold cannot "go after" them because they are not doing anything illegal.
Harmony Gold has the right to make anyone who violates their copyrights. I don't know how their license applies to England or Greece, but if they have forced people to stop production, I'm guessing that they have all the legal right in the world to do it. The Berne Conventions (the international copyright legislation) only allows them to protect the rights they actually have, and I doubt any court system would enforce Harmony Gold's will solely on good faith.
I can if you can. |
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skullone
Posts: 104 Location: Greece |
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Regarding the gee golly willickers bit... If HG wanted reviewers not to find it cheesy and kiddie-ish, then, they shouldn't have dumbed down Macross in the first place. I will disregard all your talk about how HG is entitled to do whatever it does, because it's moot.
Now, even if MW's reviewers are biased and favor the real deal instead of HG's affiliates, it's perfectly expectable. Now with the MPC fiasco, this product was delayed ad infinitum. The ToyFare prototype pics showed a cheap, enlarged copy of Bandai's HCM (did they get a license from Bandai, by the way?) with horrible proportions. Negative comments and even mild criticism on this (which, if listened to, might have resulted in a vastly improved final product) were promptly nixed out by the admins of RT.com's fora and the authors of the comments BANNED. After too many delays, HG decided to pull bully tactics on the small retailers (since these are the only ones it can bully - Manga called its bluff some years ago and now you can buy M+ and MII) and, just a few days later, pre-production pics of the MPC were shown. Again, the MPC was sub-par. Around that time, there were strong rumors that Yamato (http://www.yamato-toys.co.jp) would release the 1/48 VF-1 toy. Indeed, shortly after we saw the horrendous MPC, we were treated to the Yamato 1/48. All the while, HG has been removing criticism on the MPC from its fora and banning hundreds of users. Of course, all mention of the Yamato was off limits on RT.com. There were also some attempts (too little, too late) by a certain "Toynami Info Guy" to explain and rationalize Toynami's choices. Obviously, none of the customer feedback was taken into account. All this time, though, Yamato has been improving its products, basing its efforts on the feedback it gets from Japan AND from MW. Positive feedback, negative feedback, even downright bashing! They welcome it. How can someone not be favorable to a company that LISTENS? And, even when they do something that doesn't please their customers, they have the honor and dignity to APOLOGISE. Does HG/Toynami have this? Nope. Here's a translated message from Yamato's Staff Information Bulletin Board at http://www.yamato-toys.co.jp/cgi-bin/staffbbs.cgi title: an apology From:Macross Development Lead Even thought the mass production version [aka cannon fodder] VF-1A that we released in March had holes which did not exist in previously sold valkyries, it has become clear that the super parts [fast packs] cannot be fit onto it. Please allow us to report the details as to why this happened. At the time the mass producction version VF-1A was developed, we were exploring the idea of selling super/strike parts seperately. In such a case where super/strike parts would be separately available, we decided to get rid of duplicate parts [referring to molds perhaps] to keep prices low, and so we changed the arms to accomodate the super parts and put holes in the legs. However, before production began on the 1J super valkyrie we made final adjustments to the mold to change the pinhole location and size, and as a result the super parts could no longer be attached to the mass production version valkyrie. Ultimately, we caused great inconvenience to our users [customers] and we offer our deepest apologies. Regarding the mass production version VF-1A we released in March, we would like to make available separately sold super parts for this. For more details, please check back on our homepage around the end of June. Furthermore, as we hope our announcement of the 1/48 VF-1 shortly before the super/strike valkyries were released demonstrates, I hope you understand that we are not trying to intentionally to cause confusion among our users to push our products onto them. In conclusion, we would like to sincerely apologize for the frustrations we caused with our mass producction version valkyrie. We ask for your tolerance and understanding. 2002/06/05 21:26 And, what's more, they never labeled their product a "masterpiece". That's the kind of people I like and I don't care if you like it or not: People who work hard, with dignity, honesty and honor, accept criticism and praise alike, avoid hype, respect their client base and offer great products. HG is NOT among these people. |
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skullone
Posts: 104 Location: Greece |
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Well, why would a discriminating reviewer have any respect for Macek's talents and work?
Compare Macross, Southern Cross and Mospeada to Robotech, for instance. The originals are way better. Compare Captain Harlock to Macek's "Captain Harlock and the Queen of a Thousand Years". No comparison possible. So far, most of Macek's work is substandard. So, why would anyone want to refrain from bashing it? We see Yugos, Daewoos, Hyundais get bashed. In the British "Car" magazine, one reviewer said about the Renault Vel Satis that its rear looks "from some angles like a frog's genitals and from others like a dog's breakfast". And not even Renault's dealership in England complained. So, quit complaining when someone bashes Macek's work and claims. When a product is bad, it begs to be bashed. Period. |
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Tempest
 I Run this place.ANN Publisher  Posts: 10455 Location: Do not message me for support. |
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First Off, I am not going to lock this thread... yet.
But I highly suggest some of you cool down a bit. Stop seing white and black when this is really an issue of grays. There are also some mistakes being made here in terms of facts. Sailor Mech, HG's bans had nothing to do with copyright law, nor the Berne convention, but rather Trademark Law and distribution rights. HG does not own any copyright to the items in question, their other rights have always been in a gray area. Skullone, you present supposition as if it were fact. The current rulings in Japan relate only to issues between Tatsunoko and Big West / Studio Nue. Harmony Gold's right to the Macross have not yet been challenged, and while there is a lot of rumour that they will be challenged, they haven't been challenged yet, and no company has formally announced that they will challenge them. The final potential outcomes of these court cases vary hugely. Perhaps Harmony Gold will lose everything including Robotech, perhaps they will lose the rights they feel they have to Macross but keep Robotech, and perhaps they will lose nothing. |
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Ramen
 Posts: 346 Location: San Jose |
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Thanks for the voice of reason, Tempest.
For the record, I do think Robotech was good, if not instrumental, in the expansion of the Anime market in the US. I am a product of that generation. I do think that Macross is a superior pruduct, however, I like Robotech as well. Yes, I like them both. I even like ... some of the Robotech soundtrack. Yes, this is my opinion. |
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Case
Posts: 1016 |
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The thing is, the pegging done in that article is directed toward Macek and Harmony Gold for the decisions they made in creating Robotech. Because the review is of their original Macross dub, not Robotech, that should be unnecessary. "[C]heesy voice acting that would be common in Robotech" is an unnecessary, biased reference. If they thought the voice acting was sub-par, that's all they had to say. But they chose to take advantage of that opportunity to criticize Robotech. That is bias. It's a form of comparison that is frequently used and usually acceptable in reviewing, but it's still biased. I will disregard the remainder of your two posts, as it strays off the subject of Macross vs Robotech. I am above arguing the assertion that Harmony Gold is evil.
My mistake. Jurisprudence is not my forté. 
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nagash
Posts: 280 |
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Working OT.
OK, no screaming in this post, just a logical breakdown of things. As I said before, I see the two as completely different series. What Robotech did for me and many other people my age was to expose us to a new style of anime. When we finally did find out about Macross, we went looking for it (and came across DYRL). Macross, in it's original form, could never have made it on the air in the US. The cultures and standards are too different. As for who owns what: My understanding (please tell me if I'm wrong on this) is that a Japanese court has ruled that Bw never gave the OK for the other company to sell the rights. That's all fine and dandy. Problem is, nobody said anything at the time. Let's bring this to a US courtroom: First question: why did you wait so long? Second question: can you actually prove, beyond any reasonable doubt, that HG willingly and knowingly bought the rights from a company that they knew did not hold the rights to Macross? It does not matter what a Japanese court says according to US court procedures. You have to prove your case in this country. BW has every right to sue HG and take them to court, but unless they can prove question #2 and give a really good excuse for question #1 they will not win. In the end, I see two different anime. Someday I hope to afford (^%$#& bills) the entire Macross DVD collection, and I do look forward to getting it. Until then, I watch DYRL. They are both enjoyable if you watch both as separate anime (cartoon, whatever) and not as one derived from the other. One thing I've noticed in all forms of film or television, whenever it is put in a form to be shown to mass audiences the story is changed. Sometimes the change makes the original story unrecognizable. Such is the case here. I understand how you want Macross merchandise readily available in the US. I have no trouble finding it as it is. I say to put both versions out and see who wins. That's the fairest way to settle the merchandise problem. We are getting nowhere arguing the point of these anime back and forth. Let the companies argue it amongst themselves. Whoever wins, wins. All we can do is sit back and watch. Frankly, I don't care which one I'm watching (Robotech or Macross) as I enjoy both. |
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skullone
Posts: 104 Location: Greece |
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Actually, this thing is WAY too long for me to post it here, so I'll give you the link and you'll read and decide for yourself.
http://64.246.24.14/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=3d09349f2cf7ffff;act=ST;f=2;t=1219 I will point out to you, though, that showbiz IS an industry and, as such, if a producer isn't happy with a distribution deal, they have every right to take it away from the distributor. Plain and simple. And don't buy into HG's evasive maneuvers. Everytime their bluff was called, they just shut up. Also, check this out: http://www.animenation.net/news/index.php?id=3617 |
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skullone
Posts: 104 Location: Greece |
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Bang!!!
 It never occured to me I'd become the source of news for a site 
At any rate, guys, any confirmed news I can find, I'll keep giving it to you. |
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