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_Cyphon_



Joined: 16 Nov 2014
Posts: 996
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:33 pm Reply with quote
@selipse,
Usually during a season around a third to a quarter of the shows are on my watch list. I'm usually a very open minded person. You know, slice of life, horror, action, shoujo, comedy, sci-fi, harem, I'm okay with all of them (kind of got bored of harem though). I don't specifically have a genre I particularly like and only watch that genre. As long as it sounds interesting and looks good, sign me up. That's why I usually have a lot on my plate. Reason is that I'm an extremely meticulous person. I watch a lot because I don't want to pass up on a good anime. However, trying to cut out time to watch anime while also balancing high school and social life isn't very easy. I like anime, but I wouldn't mind having less of a selection.
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Zalis116
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Joined: 31 Mar 2005
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Location: Kazune City
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:22 am Reply with quote
EricJ2 wrote:
Even for what became known as the "casual pirate", those otherwise law-abiding anime fans who only watched digisubs of new series the moment they hit the Internet fan ether, and then bought them responsibly when they hit disk, because they were higher quality and had dubs.
Crunchyroll was literally a dirty word, because they were airing "pirate" subs, letting viewers gain more exposure to series.

During the disk bubble, a villain had to be found, so the industry conjured up the image that ANY fan who was watching anime in less-than-legitimate digital form was some evil hacker otaku who surfed the pirate-torrent sites, hoarding it on disk and chuckling over his cleverness at saving $29.95 for three episodes.

Pre-legit CR wasn't a dirty word merely because they streamed pirate subs, it was because they earned money doing so, making them the digital equivalent of shady Southeast Asian bootleg DVDs.

And plenty of people did behave in the way you described; they weren't simply boogeyman villains created out of whole cloth. They not only chuckled over the price savings, they also specifically didn't buy discs because the discs had dubs (even though dual-language DVDs were a 2-for-1 deal compared to the VHS era). Or because they thought that yellow was an ugly, "eyecancer" subtitle color, despite fansubs commonly using it in the past. Or because official subs were too localized because they dared to translate words like "itadakimasu." Or because fansubs had fancy karaoke and text typesetting. Dub fans would often wait for the R1 releases to download dual-audio rips of the R1 DVDs, though for awhile the "gold standard" of pirated releases were DVD-rips (either R1 or R2) that edited the official translations* to include honorifics and such, while also adding fansub-esque karaoke/typesetting and stripping out / not adding English audio tracks to placate CD-R users. And when 720p station-upscaled "HD"TV-rips became available, peopled stopped perceiving R1 DVDs or rips thereof as higher-quality than TV-fansubs.

*as fansubs were typically 100% hardsubbed back then, the DVD subtitles were much easier to obtain than the fansub scripts.
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Wrial Huden



Joined: 23 Jan 2009
Posts: 149
Location: McKinney, TX
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:25 pm Reply with quote
Stuart Smith wrote:

Sports shows are easy money in Japan, but in America they're considered a risky adaption.


So true! I was excited when Eyeshield 21 was announced for a NA release. But the volumes stopped about a third into the series. Obviously due to poor sales. Sad
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Somewhere



Joined: 27 Sep 2013
Posts: 361
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:51 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
And not to speak like an old-timer, but the huge number of young people I see at cons is very heartwarming.


Using this this as a comment springboard:
Going by Otakon at least, the number of attendants constantly grew year after year, boom or burst regardless. From the past near a decade of attendance, I never really felt anything different; just a constant, steady growth. I can get and probably agree with the bubble burst and second boom talk on a theoretical, macro level, but both never really... felt tangible, local to me.
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
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Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 16941
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:57 pm Reply with quote
Somewhere wrote:
dtm42 wrote:
And not to speak like an old-timer, but the huge number of young people I see at cons is very heartwarming.


Using this this as a comment springboard:
Going by Otakon at least, the number of attendants constantly grew year after year, boom or burst regardless. From the past near a decade of attendance, I never really felt anything different; just a constant, steady growth. I can get and probably agree with the bubble burst and second boom talk on a theoretical, macro level, but both never really... felt tangible, local to me.

As a native of MD and Otakon attendee since 2004 I can get what you're saying. Though I worked for Sam Goody/Suncoast so trust me I could feel it. In fact our parent company Musicland going bankrupt was, from what I heard, one of the first big pops to the anime bubble as they were big investors in Japan. Someone correct me if I am wrong, it's been a long time since I worked for them lol.

As for the young people at cons being heart warming.....I am happier and the cockles of my heart are warmed more when I see OLDER fans at them. Fans that after 20-30 years are still going strong and kicking ass. I remember one year seeing this grandmother in her hot topic garb of chains and anime t-shirts in several panels I went to.
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Rogueywon



Joined: 01 May 2011
Posts: 255
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:06 pm Reply with quote
Psycho 101 wrote:
Somewhere wrote:
Using this this as a comment springboard:
Going by Otakon at least, the number of attendants constantly grew year after year, boom or burst regardless. From the past near a decade of attendance, I never really felt anything different; just a constant, steady growth. I can get and probably agree with the bubble burst and second boom talk on a theoretical, macro level, but both never really... felt tangible, local to me.

As a native of MD and Otakon attendee since 2004 I can get what you're saying. Though I worked for Sam Goody/Suncoast so trust me I could feel it. In fact our parent company Musicland going bankrupt was, from what I heard, one of the first big pops to the anime bubble as they were big investors in Japan. Someone correct me if I am wrong, it's been a long time since I worked for them lol.


Actually, I think this might touch on another point of difference between how the industry (the Western part of it, at least) is now and how it was in the lead-in to the big crash last decade.

In the early-mid 00s, there were signs - misleading ones as it turns out - that anime might be about to go mainstream in the West. Spirited Away had won an Oscar, series like Last Exile and Cowboy Bebop were doing decent numbers on TV and there were Gundam kits on toyshop shelves.

As it happened, the mainstream audiences moved onto other things - and the companies who had invested in a big mainstream boom took the pain. The same thing happened in the games industry (got friends who used to work there who took the redundancy hit on this) following the release of the Wii. For a brief moment, it looked like gaming might be about to push through into huge, previously untapped markets in the 40+ age range. Then it turned out that a lot of the people who bought a Wii so they could play Wii Sports at a couple of dinner parties were never going to buy any more games for it and had moved onto the next trend already. So the third party studios who had bet on all of this went bust.

This time around, the current boom feels much more fuelled by slow-but-steady growth in an existing niche market. It's still impressive, but it's healthier and more realistic than last time.
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EricJ2



Joined: 01 Feb 2014
Posts: 4016
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:52 pm Reply with quote
Rogueywon wrote:
In the early-mid 00s, there were signs - misleading ones as it turns out - that anime might be about to go mainstream in the West. Spirited Away had won an Oscar, series like Last Exile and Cowboy Bebop were doing decent numbers on TV and there were Gundam kits on toyshop shelves.

As it happened, the mainstream audiences moved onto other things - and the companies who had invested in a big mainstream boom took the pain.


The mainstream audiences didn't know how to search out anything that wasn't handed to them--
Cowboy Bebop was doing good numbers on CN, and it created the Rise of the Narutard: "I'm an anime fan, because I watch Bleach/Death Note/Trigun on Adult Swim!" And claimed to be Studio Ghibli fans because Howl's Moving Castle was playing their local cineplex.
That wasn't the same as searching out series at the Musicland stores during the expensive-singles days, and once the plate was taken away, the mainstream audience became out-of-sight-out-of-mind.

Fans had to do more than just get mainstream audiences hooked, they had to persuade them to take some initiative.
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leafy sea dragon



Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 7163
Location: Another Kingdom
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:09 pm Reply with quote
AbZeroNow wrote:
They could but Funimation probably doesn't want to do an import release of it, and since Funimation doesn't want to charge Japanese-style prices, Studio Khara is holding onto 3.33 until they think they've squeezed every dime from the BD in Japan and then they'll allow Funi to sell 3.33 for "bargain basement" prices. So yeah, despite what they're saying, it's reverse importation that is holding up 3.33.


I'm guessing "bargain basement" prices from Studio Khara's perspective. Bargain-bin Blu-Rays I can find for $5 nowadays or even less, even quality stuff like The Shawshank Redemption. THAT'S bargain prices.

Stuart Smith wrote:
The last boom was because of shows like Pokemon, Dragonball Z, and similar titles. Not exactly risky material or independently created anime. Most anime is considered risky material in the American market because unless it's an action shounen, it's not going to get a big audience with Americans. Sports shows are easy money in Japan, but in America they're considered a risky adaption. Same with shows deemed "too Japanese" like the current massive hit Youkai Watch, or shoujo series like the myriad of magical girl series that are not streaming or licensed and can only be watched fansubbed. I think you're confusing your preference of certain anime with risky adaptions.

-Stuart Smith


Something related I think is worth considering is that those late 90's shows, plus Digimon, Yu-Gi-Oh!, and Sailor Moon, were mainstream. Everybody knew about them, even people who knew nothing about anime, even people who didn't know what anime was.

Of any anime produced after that period, only Naruto, Bakugan, and Bleach have been anywhere close to mainstream, the only three I can think of that you could find toys for that weren't automatically placed in the collectibles/geek section of a store.

I don't think we will ever see anything like Pokémon at the peak of its popularity ever again (the anime, I mean--the video games continue to fly off the shelves), since digital viewing has split audiences into ever smaller niches with little unification or communication between them. It's the narrowcasting that happened when cable TV became popular, only an order of magnitude more.

DillMan wrote:
But why don't the Japanese just slap english subtitles on their own products and sell them internationally? How does that change anything with their own sales to people in Japan? They can still sell licenses if they want, they can still delay them, etc but now people internationally can buy their products. Still does not make sense that they would not allow it.


For DVDs, this is because the United States, the largest market for English-language subtitles, and Japan are different regions. The United States is part of Region 1, and Japan is part of Region 2. (The United Kingdom and South Africa are also part of Region 2 though.) For Blu-Rays, this is because Japan uses the ISDB-T high-definition TV format, and the only country that also uses that format with wide use of English as a language is the Philippines, with the United States and Canada using ATSC (and Bahamas, though it's not at all a large market) and all other countries with English as a primary or secondary language using DVB-T.

In other words, there has always been regional incompatibility between Japan and most of the rest of the English-speaking world, so there's no point in releasing digital home video to hopefully sell to a region that most people wouldn't be able to use.

Touma wrote:
How can there be too much?
If there is more than you want to watch then you can simply not watch all of it.
If there is not as much as you want to watch there is really nothing that you can do about that.

I think that it is better to have "too much" than not enough.


You should've seen the SEGA fans whine about Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed having too many characters. There was a distilled insanity there.

The reason was actually different than _Cyphon_'s, but could definitely apply to modern anime production: The SEGA fans complained that time, money, and other resources were spent making characters few people cared for (and frankly, were of questionable quality). This was debunked repeatedly by key people in the game's staff, as the roster was planned out far in advance with the game's budget in mind, and some programmers spent extra hours fitting MORE characters in, but it didn't keep people from parroting that.

I could see someone arguing that because we have so much anime, budgets get spread too thin. While I could see that with Toei, I'd have a hard time believing that claim, as the reason we're having a lot of anime released is because there are a lot of companies making them right now.

EricJ2 wrote:
Crunchyroll was literally a dirty word, because they were airing "pirate" subs, letting viewers gain more exposure to series.


And Crunchyroll became a dirty word to a different group of people, the anti-localization folks.

Rogueywon wrote:

Actually, I think this might touch on another point of difference between how the industry (the Western part of it, at least) is now and how it was in the lead-in to the big crash last decade.

In the early-mid 00s, there were signs - misleading ones as it turns out - that anime might be about to go mainstream in the West. Spirited Away had won an Oscar, series like Last Exile and Cowboy Bebop were doing decent numbers on TV and there were Gundam kits on toyshop shelves.

As it happened, the mainstream audiences moved onto other things - and the companies who had invested in a big mainstream boom took the pain. The same thing happened in the games industry (got friends who used to work there who took the redundancy hit on this) following the release of the Wii. For a brief moment, it looked like gaming might be about to push through into huge, previously untapped markets in the 40+ age range. Then it turned out that a lot of the people who bought a Wii so they could play Wii Sports at a couple of dinner parties were never going to buy any more games for it and had moved onto the next trend already. So the third party studios who had bet on all of this went bust.

This time around, the current boom feels much more fuelled by slow-but-steady growth in an existing niche market. It's still impressive, but it's healthier and more realistic than last time.


For each of those trends, something else stole its thunder in a hurry. For the Wii, it was the iPod Touch and the iPhone popularizing mobile gaming. (Nintendo still won out in the end though, as it turned a profit with every Wii sold.) For kids watching animation on TV (I'd say there was a burst with western animation around 2008-9 too, and only now is it recovering with shows like Adventure Time and Phineas and Ferb), I would say it was High School Musical. That came down like a thunderbolt, completely unexpected. All of a sudden, kids considered animated TV as immature, and Disney and Nickelodeon were pumping out kids' sitcoms about tweens as fast as they could make them with Cartoon Network doing CN Real. That fad has largely gone away though, with the only big sitcom aimed at kids remaining being iCarly.

That's what can strike a rising trend hardest: When something else comes along and steals its audience away.
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Polycell



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:18 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
For Blu-Rays, this is because Japan uses the ISDB-T high-definition TV format, and the only country that also uses that format with wide use of English as a language is the Philippines, with the United States and Canada using ATSC (and Bahamas, though it's not at all a large market) and all other countries with English as a primary or secondary language using DVB-T.

In other words, there has always been regional incompatibility between Japan and most of the rest of the English-speaking world, so there's no point in releasing digital home video to hopefully sell to a region that most people wouldn't be able to use.
Japanese BDs are regularly imported into the US by for retail sale by Aniplex, English subtitles and all: TV standards don't affect the video stored on a BD like they did the video on a DVD, so what the output format is depends on the player and setup; since this is almost always HDMI, the standard is an international one, anyways.
Quote:
CN Real
How long did CN Ripoff last? Less than a year? At least they completely failed to get out of the Cartoon Network niche.
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leafy sea dragon



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:45 pm Reply with quote
CN Real definitely did not last very long. It got a sour reception from the kids it was aimed at too. There is still live action on Cartoon Network, but with Incredible Crew gone, it's restricted solely to movies.

Okay, so Blu-Rays really ARE imported to English-speaking regions? I wasn't sure if there was region locking for Blu-Rays, as I don't know as much about that as I do DVDs.
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EricJ2



Joined: 01 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:15 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:

I don't think we will ever see anything like Pokémon at the peak of its popularity ever again (the anime, I mean--the video games continue to fly off the shelves)
For kids watching animation on TV (I'd say there was a burst with western animation around 2008-9 too, and only now is it recovering with shows like Adventure Time and Phineas and Ferb), I would say it was High School Musical. That came down like a thunderbolt, completely unexpected. All of a sudden, kids considered animated TV as immature, and Disney and Nickelodeon were pumping out kids' sitcoms about tweens as fast as they could make them with Cartoon Network doing CN Real.
That's what can strike a rising trend hardest: When something else comes along and steals its audience away.


With cable, though--afternoon syndication was killed off by Judge Judy--it's more a case that the cable game is now about parent corporations, they see each other as having to be the "one" kids' demographic channel, and they want what each other has:
Disney Channel wanted Nick's tween sitcoms, and when they made High School Musical, Nick wanted DC's teen rock groups. Disney X-D wanted Cartoon Network's Adventure-Time cult-trips, while CN wanted the cheaper E/I live-action programming that Discovery Kids could churn out.

As for Pokemon and syndicated anime, the mainstream syndicators still saw Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh in the '99 view of game marketing ("Those Pokemon fans are watching the Japanese cartoons!")
And when the original Indigo-era Pokemon suffered the most ignominious fate any kids' trend can suffer--the fans' little brothers were playing it!--the older junior high fans dropped it fast, and marketers thought that if Pokemon = Syndicated anime, anime went with it.
Although that was right around the time that DBZ became the Next Big Thing on cable. (And wore out its welcome there, but that was more the fault of the show itself.)
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Blanchimont



Joined: 25 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:54 pm Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
...For Blu-Rays, this is because Japan uses the ISDB-T high-definition TV format, and the only country that also uses that format with wide use of English as a language is the Philippines, with the United States and Canada using ATSC (and Bahamas, though it's not at all a large market) and all other countries with English as a primary or secondary language using DVB-T.

You really have no idea what you're talking about. Those are digital TV-encoding standards and have nothing to do with the encoding used on Blurays which is globally standardized; all players are required to handle mpeg2, mpeg4 avc and VC-1.

Playing those blurays is actually a fairly simple matter most of the time, subtitles notwithstanding. That is because the very large majority of them are region-free(all region). At least I haven't seen one that wasn't.
Most JP DVDs indeed used to be restricted to region 2 (commonly abbreviated R2), however that is not the case with Japanese anime blurays...
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leafy sea dragon



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:12 am Reply with quote
I admit that was information I had just looked up. Was I looking up the wrong things? I really didn't know anything about HD formats or Blu-Ray formats until I went to look. My satellite receiver is connected to my TV via coaxial, and the number of Blu-Rays I have can be counted on one hand, so I decided to do some quick reading. I had the impression that the TV format you use would be incompatible with certain other devices, as I compared it to the NTSC/PAL/whatever-else-there-is divide.

So HD formats are interchangeable? What's the point of having different formats then? What's the difference between them anyway? And if Blu-Rays don't have region locks, why do DVDs do?
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fuuma_monou



Joined: 26 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:46 am Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
So HD formats are interchangeable? What's the point of having different formats then? What's the difference between them anyway? And if Blu-Rays don't have region locks, why do DVDs do?


Blu-rays do have region-locks. It's just that the U.S. and Japan are both region A.
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Blanchimont



Joined: 25 Feb 2012
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Location: Finland
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:56 am Reply with quote
leafy sea dragon wrote:
So HD formats are interchangeable? What's the point of having different formats then? What's the difference between them anyway? And if Blu-Rays don't have region locks, why do DVDs do?

The conflict between PAL and NTSC went away at the latest with the proliferation of digital TVs on the consumer side, as the problem was essentially reduced to a frame-rate issue, instead of having to take into account things like voltage...

Why there are still different encodings for HD formats? That's probably a vestige from the time things weren't so standardized, to ensure compatibility...

Blurays do have regions, the same way as DVDs. But there's no law they have to be set for a specific one(s). And for US viewers it wouldn't matter anyway for Japan imports; Both Japan and US, as well as the rest of Americas, share the same BD region, 'A'.

That US anime blurays are typically region restricted is actually a somewhat of an anomaly as large majority of discs in the global BD market is set to 'region-free', but that is likely because of fears of reverse importation...
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