Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Scum's Wish
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NeverConvex
 Subscriber Posts: 2364 |
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I don't think physical force or a verbal "No." are necessary for that scene to qualify as rape, Gina. I think all that's necessary are that Hanabi didn't want it and Ecchan understood (or at least strongly suspected) that, which is how I read it.
Admittedly, without a clearly verbalized rejection, it is certainly possible to read the scene in other ways. And I do agree that the greater likelihood of physical force or implicit threat of force does make it the situation rather different if you replace Ecchan with a man. Nevertheless, I think what Ecchan did was rape.
I believe this was the case in their first sexual encounter, but I don't think it was the case with their last one. I believe that when she chose to venture to the vacation home she wanted sex, emotional intimacy, and a friend, not just the last of the three. I can't remember what lines gave me this impression, but I vaguely recall her hinting something to this effect after she discovered Mugi had let her down (hinting to the audience, not to Ecchan). |
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11451 |
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Well, unlike Ecchan, we're allowed inside Hanabi's head, and there wasn't even an unspoken "no, I don't want this." All Hanabi was sending out was shocked surprise, since the possibility had never crossed her mind, and that by itself was enough to make Ecchan think she'd ruined her chances by being too aggressive (which she was; I'm not arguing that she wasn't). All she was thinking was "Ecchan's really pretty." That doesn't say, "Gah, let me outta here!" to me. Based on their second encounter, I'm not even sure things went beyond kissing the first time. Otherwise, Ecchan wouldn't have approached things as she did, asking for explicit consent that time (to go farther than kissing?), asking if she was nervous, etc. Hanabi gave her the go ahead, even if for crappy reasons, but remember that she was the one who ran into Ecchan's arms, and while acknowledging to herself how messed up this all was, she also thinks, "I didn't stop." Not, "I didn't stop her." So Hanabi accepts that her signals haven't been clear because she doesn't even understand why Ecchan likes her, and goes into it with her eyes wide open. Again, that doesn't make Ecchan's taking advantage of that okay, nor Hanabi's reasons for allowing it benign, but I can't call it rape in this case. Need I say ymmv? 
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NeverConvex
Subscriber Posts: 2364 |
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Hm - it's possible I'm misremembering some of the details of their first sexual scene. I'll have to go rewatch it at some point, keeping in mind your point about our at least partial access to Hanabi's headspace, and report back on whether that changes my mind.
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Lifesongsoa
Posts: 34 |
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It seems like everyone basically agrees that it's a bad idea to act like Ecchan right? What are we even arguing about? Hanabi's innocence? The conclusion of the episode was that neither of them were okay with letting the other walk away and take all the blame. Neither of them are on trial for their actions. They have to come to terms on their own and move on.
Psychological defense infantilizes Hanab unnecessarily I think. It also misses the theme the story is going for. Hanabi felt like she was taking advantage of Ecchan. Ecchan felt like she was taking advantage of Hanabi. Both of them accepted it, neither of them were okay with it, both of them were hurt by it and both of them value the other person in their own way. |
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NeverConvex
Subscriber Posts: 2364 |
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I think we're debating whether Ecchan has ever raped Hanabi. Most of the other stuff is secondary.
I do think "Hey! Ecchan's kind've a dick. Don't be her." and "Ecchan raped Hanabi. What the fudge, don't do that." are pretty important distinctions, so I don't think it's a meaningless conversation, although it has often gotten muddied and confused with side issues. |
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Lifesongsoa
Posts: 34 |
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My take is that Hanabi was okay with allowing Ecchan to decide what was and wasn't appropriate. I'd consider that consent even though what Ecchan did with that consent was clearly abusive. Does that justify it or make it okay? No, not really, but it's not okay. Neither of them were okay with it which is what lead to the whole dramatic scene outside in the rain.
I feel like if Hanabi were to read this thread she'd be pretty pissed to find people siding with and defending her and even calling Ecchan a rapist. It's a bit insulting to both of them I think. That doesn't mean it's unimportant or we shouldn't think about it, but I did feel like we were losing that perspective as I was reading through comments on episode 9. |
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hissatsu01
 Posts: 963 Location: NYC |
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Not having paid much attention to this discussion/argument until recently, I was rather shocked that some people actually think Hanabi and Ecchan had sex in the third episode and not only that, it was rape. I actually had to go back and rewatch to see how I managed not to notice something that major.
After rewatching, I can say that if you think that they had sex at all in the third episode, you're confused at best. And nothing about how the events of the fourth episode are presented makes any sense at all if you think that. Ecchan is needy, manipulative, pushy, and abusive of her friendship with Hanabi, and she knows it. But a rapist? Only if you water down and broaden the meaning of the word so much that it does a disservice to actual victims. Not to mention removing any sort of agency from Hanabi's character, who becomes a helpless victim, (repeatedly) unable to escape the vile Ecchan's clutches. Last edited by hissatsu01 on Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CrispyCritter
Posts: 12 |
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Absolutely. At no point did I feel that Hanabi was incapable of making (and enforcing) a rational decision over whether to stop or not. And at no point did I feel that Ecchan was trying to remove Hanabi's capacity to make a rational decision. Ecchan was putting more emotional pressure on Hanabi than either felt comfortable about, but it was still up to Hanabi. I can't think of another anime that explores female aggressiveness in relationships like this one. There are plenty where there's internal debates over whether to be aggressive or not, but the criteria is what will happen to the relationship. Scum's Wish is instead looking at what happens to the individuals involved, with a full gamut of female aggressiveness types. It's refreshing. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16941 |
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Rinkwolf you need to chill with the strawman arguments. You're twisting people's words around to fit your assumptions and beliefs on this show. Believe it or not people can have different views and you need to except that and be civil or move on to a different topic if you cannot. Telling a reviewer btw to go F themselves after once again making your own assumptions about what they said, like you're doing with the other posters, is not going to fly here either. Consider this the only warning you'll get on that particular topic. You can disagree with people here civilly all you want but we won't tolerate you going around saying go F yourself to anyone.
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#Verso.Sciolto
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Yesterday 96Neko's "Uso no Hibana" was released for sale in various "single" formats. Sayuri's "Heikousen" was released on March 1st. As indicated on their respective sites, linked from: http://www.kuzunohonkai.com/music/
... but, I don't see anything about a soundtrack there so quick. Has one been announced? Lots of musical references in the series and I think I'm not the only who who thinks it might be fun if those were represented on one album - in one form or another. Not everyone agrees but I think the suggestive soundscape really contributes to the mood and mental imagery. Sparking the tone right from the start and reverberating well beyond the final lines of the ending credits. Edit to add: 「嘘の火花」, "Uso no Hibana", is a Semordnilap or hetero-palindrome. Not unlike NoitaminA. Reverse the reading order and it turns out as 花火の嘘 Hanabi no Uso, Lie of Hanabi / Hanabi's lie. Interesting characters: "Hanabi" can be read and translated as fireworks. In the anime credits, Uso no Hibana is top to bottom, however. The way it is written it can also be translated as “Spark of a Lie”, although, on the niconico channel the title appears translated into English as “Glittering Lie”. The song is performed by 96 猫. Her stage name literally means 96 Cat(s) but with some imagination it can also be read as くろねこ [ku ro ne ko]. It is pronounced that way and means black cat - a recurring presence in imagery. After seeing the song title, and its possibilities for reversal, I started wondering if the person behind 96 猫 had already used such a linguistic strategy before - when picking a name. Reverse the order and it becomes 猫 69. More than one cat is already Neko-tachi and even spelled out backwards that's still a lot of cats. In the anime credits it is top to bottom....but not everyone swings that way. On “MAL” someone named “Tutsan” pointed out that: “[…] for this song, the composition/arrangement/lyrics is the work of Naohisa Taniguchi”. Adding a layer. Some interesting titles to explore in this context can be found on this page of story previews as well. Whoever maintains the site is looking ahead a bit so the linked page does contain spoilers for the upcoming episode. http://news.noitamina.tv/kuzunohonkai/story/ Edited with appreciation for updates. ... and, finally, to facilitate resumption where regular broadcast here was interrupted, (笑): えっちゃん（絵鳩早苗）が好きです。 ――花火に好意を寄せている同性の友人ですね。 途中から歪んじゃう部分もあるけれど、基本的には好きな人の幸せを応援するっていう、どこにでもある乙女心を持った子だと思います。http://news.livedoor.com/article/detail/12747775/ |
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whiskeyii
 Posts: 2256 |
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So a deeper musing on this might have to wait til next episode, but I kind of get the impression that Kanai is the series' best example of what it means to be an adult --unfortunately the penultimate chapter gives very little insight into Kanai, and I have little hope for the final chapter dwelling on anyone but our main couple--and I think it's meant to be illustrated by his attitude towards sex in contrast towards everyone else struggling with their expressions of sexuality.
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Lifesongsoa
Posts: 34 |
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This was an episode that needed to happen I think. It confirmed many of the suspicions about characters that I've built over the length of the show. Now it's all primed and ready to explode.
I'm starting to think we haven't been giving Mugi enough credit. I suspect the ending bit where he was thinking about giving up lingering affection he was actually thinking of lingering affection for Akane and not Hanabi. He knows he can't get through to Akane by showing her affection. It isn't what she needs to snap out of her self-absorbed game. Akane should have had warning bells going off when he admitted what he admired about her personality. She doesn't have the slightest idea how to deal with someone who sees through her or cares to understand her. She doesn't even realize she is vulnerable to them. She has bought in on her own game and Mugi might actually be able to pull her out of it by playing by her own rules. I can't wait to see how the next bit plays out. |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23909 |
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You are seeing a more sophisticated scenario than I am, Lifesongsoa. In fact, the last episode made me wonder if I was watching a sort of female wish fulfillment at play. What I saw was two male characters, one of whom (improbably) understands exactly what kind of person Akane is, yet either 1) cannot stop himself loving her or, even worse, 2) actually loves her because of it. The second male character, Onii-chan, presumably has just gained some insight into her real character that he may not have had before ... aaaaaaaaand, it doesn't matter. Hey, as long as he gets to hang around her and go to aquariums and stuff, it's all good right? Of course, the show has not bothered to demonstrate to me why these two male characters love Akane no matter what. What she has to offer beyond a nice set is not clear to me. Paraphrasing a comment I made in the series discussion thread, when Akane isn't acting like a scumbag, she's insipid and boring. But again for Mugi and Onii-chan this is irrelevant. I'm starting to think this is actually a pretty stupid show.
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One-Eye
 Posts: 2262 |
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Am I misinterpreting something or is the story possibly hinting that Akane maybe redeemable? Because if it is I don't really like that direction. I'm ok if the guys try, because they want to save her (many guys are programed that way), but I think the story should have her reject that. Really there are some people that are just bad or twisted, and it isn't always because of some trauma that can then be waved away with a magic wand along with all the damage they've done. Some people just get off on the power they have over others (even if they are lonely, boo-hoo) and they aren't willing to give that up.
Onee-chan: "I love you just the way you are!" Akane: "Dude, I get off on hurting people and I like having sex with kids. I'm a sadist." Left-overs-kun: "She's a dirty slut!" Onee-chan: "Its ok, I'm a masochist. We were made for each other!" Left-overs-kun: "..." (face-palms and then runs-away screaming) |
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NeverConvex
Subscriber Posts: 2364 |
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I read Kanai's reaction to Akane rather differently. I think he saw her monologue of self-deprecation as a reflection of how little she thinks of herself, and that his instinct was to try to protect her from that - to let her know that he thinks she has intrinsic value, something she currently does not acknowledge.
I doubt he'd be happy with her if they got into the nitty-gritty of what she intentionally did to Hanabi via Mugi, but since they didn't talk about any of that I thought his reaction was pretty reasonable. It's exactly the kind of reaction I'd expect from a genuinely nice guy, albeit dramatized a tad. I liked this episode because it finally humanized Akane meaningfully, and her mask finally began to show some understandable cracks. I didn't like it because what the fudge I miss Hanabi. |
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