Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Scum's Wish
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One-Eye
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Chiibi
 Posts: 4829 |
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Ecchan and Akane are both pretty bad, imho.
I've tried to put my finger on why I find Ecchan so creepy; then I compared her actions towards Hanabi with Mugi's actions towards Hanabi and found an answer: Hanabi never initiates the intimacy when it's Ecchan. Ecchan always makes that first move. Hanabi never looks comfortable with her, like she does with Mugi. That's why it feels rapey. From a human morale perspective, Akane is worse. She's a terrible person on purpose and she never has remorse for it. Ecchan does show remorse sometimes...but she lets her lust take over and Hanabi's feelings become irrelevant to her. |
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lhernan02
Posts: 196 |
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Yep, pretty much, one forces herself on others the other offers herself to others, so yes, Ecchan is worse. Men like to sleep with Akane and that suits her purpose (her sadism (your word not mine) is more toward the girls than the boys). She is a bad teacher, hell, she is a bad person (the writer has yet to give her any redeemable qualities, she only has a bit of back-story excuse, but not much). Ecchan, on the sexual side, is a far worse person (and if she was a boy I am sure you would be on my side), but she has been given a damsel persona outside of the sex bits that makes her a pitiable if not outright likeable character (she is in love with her "prince" but she cannot (will not) return the love she so desperately wants to share). |
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One-Eye
Posts: 2262 |
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There's only one person that Ecchan is focused on unlike Akane and what? Are you suggesting that Hanabi thinks nothing sexual is going to happen going on a trip by themselves? Hanabi maybe presented as passive, but she is hardly unwilling. She wants Ecchan's sexual attention out of a desire for distraction from her troubles and self hate which of course is not a good thing nor is this relationship of theirs healthy, but Akane is in another class. You say that Akane "offers" herself to others as though that's not a form of manipulation itself and you seem to be suggesting that since the men are getting sex from her no harm is being done to them. Do you think that men that honestly fall in love with her are not harmed when she decides to cheat on them or skip out? What if some of them are married? She holds no responsibility? She causes no pain to them? And you really believe that her sleeping with students is only being "a bad teacher"? Especially students that have issues like Mugi? If she was a male teacher having sex with his female students would you be calling him only a bad teacher too? And yes she is a sadist, because she takes pleasure in the pain she causes and the power she wields over her victims. She tells Mugi to call her Sensei for that very reason, because even though she is "offering" herself (your word not mine) she is in the position of power. Its interesting that in the OP the main characters are all laying down in a circle, except Akane who stands outside of it. They are connected together, but it seems not Akane. I also find it interesting that Akane feels the need to compete with high school girls. Last edited by One-Eye on Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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NeverConvex
 Subscriber Posts: 2364 |
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I find the idea of one person playing both of these roles simultaneously quite plausible both in and outside of fiction. Highlighting the refusal of real peoples' personality to fall neatly into one-dimensional archetypes is part of what I like about this show, and I think Ecchan's behavior is a good example of that. The real world's saturated with people who provoke both condemnation and pity - probably not often to quite the extremes Ecchan has managed to hit, but a bit of exaggeration's to be expected. |
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DuskyPredator
 Posts: 15523 Location: Brisbane, Australia |
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And yet Hanabi decides to go to a secluded cabin knowing full well what would happen, uncomfortable with a male third wheel showing up, and that she cannot get loud. Yeah Hanabi is not a lesbian, she is not in love with her friend, but she likes the attention. Is it so hard to accept that part? It is not just a case of Hanabi not wanting to ruin their friendship, and in fact by the end it is kind of the opposite as Hanabi acknowledges that she has to end it to actually save their friendship. Calling Ecchan the bad one is ignoring everything Hanabi is doing, it is like just assuming that Hanabi is the insert boys like boys girls like girls character. That is assuming someone would have the sex stuff without it lining up with sexuality and wanting a proper relationship out of it. Yeah Ecchan from her point of view was manipulating her friend into playing into her idea of a relationship, but Hanabi was getting good feelings out preying on someone wanting a proper relationship. Yeah you can say that not really saying anything is not giving permission, but plenty of inner monologue shows that Hanabi is not just an innocent party. In terms of calling a rapist, the girl who started sexual relations with Mugi is probably worse as is the teacher. Neither of them were actually his peers, and seems clear that they seduced him. But the excuse can be given that boys like that sort of thing so they were not doing anything wrong, and it is that sort of thing that tends to give leaner thoughts of situations like adult women doing things to little boys as opposed to the opposite. The difference here is peer groups. |
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Animechic420
 Posts: 1730 Location: A Cave Filled With Riches |
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What the hell is wrong with these kids???
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Raebo101
 Posts: 805 |
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Yep. That pretty much sums it up! 
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Chiibi
Posts: 4829 |
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Everything. That's why they entertain us.
I still think Hanabi is unwilling when it comes to Ecchan. It's best seen in episode 07 where she tried to end the weirdo relationship between them but Ecchan doesn't know what "no" means and kept forcing herself on Hanabi anyway (IN PUBLIC AT THAT) which I found disgusting. She became totally unlikable to me at that point. |
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CrownKlown
 Posts: 1762 |
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Okay can the people at ANN please stop acting like they either have a law degree or a phd in psychology.
It was basically abuse, and it follows the same premise of statutory rape. One person was in a position to influence another person in a weakened state. Statutory rape can easily be consensual but in the eyes of the law, based in part on psychological theory some people (minors, mentally stunted, etc) are deemed not to be in a position to make a sound judgement. So you can spin this anyway you want, but this is really close to an abused individual simply giving into their abuser, which unfortunately does happen, and most normal people unlike this reviewer would never applaud that as some victory. Also the whole notion was nonsense. Sex is physical, there is a biology to it. A female can have pleasure in a lesbian encounter and the same for a man, even if they are straight, its a matter of manipulating the right sexual organs and erogenous zones. There is a difference between attraction and flat out carnal desires. You are kind of overlooking the whole debacle of no means yes, and the old excuse used by abusers of they enjoyed. Yes, its possible to have sexual gratification but still have abuse, its two separate issue. So for you to suggest that her liking the sex even though she explicitly didn't have romantic feelings, was really her secretly being a lesbian is nonsense and even worse trying to justify it borders on offensive. And probably the last point this highlights the fact people are overlooking something they would normally not approve of because it appeals to them in another way, lets not mince words double standard. Its a tired argument, but only because its an apt argument, but the reviewer and people in general that do give this a pass do so because its yuri. If anything its another example of the tired psycho lesbian trope, maybe even worse because unlike most examples which are so exaggerated to almost be caricatures, this was a pretty realistic deception that only seems to perpetuate ridiculous stereotypes. Its not my cup of tea but I dont mind some of the relationships like those shown in Yuri on Ice, or a classic like Utena, or there are plenty of good manga and now a lot Korean webtoons; but don't go applauding this kind of garbage. Does the underlying topic mean so little to you that you are willing to bite at this kind "scum" like a rabid dog and parade it around as some kind of vindication? You should really go back and read the article earlier about Yuri on Ice and how it portrays a positive potentially homosexual relationship. |
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Galap
Moderator
 Posts: 2354 |
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I know that sexuality, especially its darker sides, is the most volatile and touchy subject on the internet, and since it's an integral part of the show, discussion of these matters can't be avoided, but things have gone too far here. Someone else on the internet having different views on sexual practices doesn't justify you attacking them. If you want to disagree with someone, take Jacob's example, and explain why you believe what you believe. If all you can do to justify your viewpoint is call people names, you don't really have much to stand on.
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Merida
 Posts: 1945 |
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I'm with Jacob on this one. Sure, "no means no", but there's also a thing called context. It's not so much Ecchan's advances Hanabi disliked but her own reactions to them. She hates herself for craving the attention while still actively seeking it, like agreeing to go on that trip for example. People who call her the victim in this relationship are actually diminishing here character which is a lot more complex than "naive girls in search of pure friendship being devoured by the big bad she-wolf"...
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Simplo
Posts: 20 |
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Well, talking about statutory rape is probably taking things a little too far. Hanabi is fully able to consent. To begin with, Hanabi is not mentally ill. Having stress is not a mental illness, and talking as if Ecchan is the only one selfishly using another person is dishonest. Imagine the real world consequences if being stressed would be enough to automatically make sex with you 'rape'.
I understand that in theory the absence of ''no'' doesn't mean ''yes'', but in reality we don't sign a contract to confirm consent. I did became abusey when Ecchan touched her publicly, and was dangerously close to become very disgusting. BUT Hanabi is not bullied or blackmailed into coming to the trip. That strongly reconfirms her own willingness to use Ecchan for her own selfish reasons. Just because Hanabi acts all innocent doesn't mean that she is. Hanabi got her feelings hurt so what does she do? She revels in the attention of a third-party, while pretending as if she got into the situation randomly. They're both deeply flawed and both sides of the discussion on the site only tends to look at one side as if it was a boxing duel. Its either ''Ecchan is a rapist'' or ''Hanabi is the bad one''. Isn't the point of the show that ALL of them are flawed? P.S. I love how the show invokes such discussion and extremely different viewpoints. It is so refreshing, especially, when most of the medium goes to traditional ''good guy- bad guy'' dynamic. |
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lhernan02
Posts: 196 |
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Exactly, that is why I said she was two mutually exclusive characters at once. In real life, we have all met rat bastards that would give their lives for others and lovely people that pull the trigger and just walk away, but there are complexities and transitions. Ecchan is not such a character, she is two one-dimensional archetypes without a good transition. Yes, real people rationalize forcing themselves on the object of their affection all day long, but Ecchan switches from predator to damsel and back in seconds flat. Just because she is well written within her character constraints does not make her real or relatable. I believe this is a situation of agree to disagree, I understand your point, but for the reasons stated, I just don't agree with it. |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23909 |
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@ lhernan02 - first, I don't think your characterization of Ecchan as a "damsel in distress" is not quite right. The show is positing that she is desperately in love with Hanabi. The show posits that that desperation has caused Ecchan to act inappropriately. There is no mutually exclusive characterization between those two points. And even if there was, anybody who understands real human behaviour understands that the more contradictory a fictional character is, the more that character resembles a real life person. It is only in the realm of fiction, for very logical reasons, that we insist on internal consistency. Which is fine, just don't mistake internal consistency with realism.
I echo Chiibi's earlier point that Hanabi's own reaction to Ecchan mitigates Ecchan's actions. The show does not seem to be positing that Hanabi subconsciously considers Ecchan to be a rapist and that Hanabi is re-enacting the dynamic that sometimes occurs in real life when a victim continues to associate with her or his victimizer for various reasons. |
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