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BrianaTheBard
 Posts: 34 Location: Milwaukee, WI |
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I'm sorry, but I thought Clannad was boring. Somebody chose it as a surprise pick for anime club, and I stared at the little fox girl saying "Nyu... nyu" over and over again, and was bored to tears. I like a lot of shojo anime, but Clannad just doesn't do it for me.
I'm glad, though, that Ouran is getting the love it deserves. After reading your review I went on an Ouran rewatching of all of my favorite episodes. I've loved this series since I was 16, and I got so giddy when Funimation picked it up. Also, unlike many other anime in which I either really like the Japanese or English versions, I like both the same. While Vic does a great job at creating his own Tamaki, Mamoru Miyano really created Tamaki. I love Todd Haberkorn and Greg Ayres as the twins, there voices are so different yet blend somehow. Todd Haberkorn is coming to Anime Milwaukee this weekend, which I've volunteering in, and I'm totally getting my volumes signed :] Thanks for the Wallflower review, I've read the manga and really enjoyed it, so I'll be sure to pick up the DVD once I, er, have some money ^^; |
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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This proves that even if you don't like these shows, they'll still make you cry. I don't quite think this sort of show counts as Shōjo though, but then again there may be a bit of leeway within such a term. |
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Furudanuki
 Posts: 1874 |
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Could you perhaps be referring to Kanon rather than Clannad? Because there is no "little fox girl" in Clannad. |
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abunai
Old Regular
 Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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Oh, now, don't harsh the vibe with petty details like facts. - abunai |
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4nBlue
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Fruits Basket is basically a "moe-show" for girls. It's packed full beatiful guys who's heart can only be healed by the heroine. Fruits Basket: Heroine who helps other people get over their problems, but also has her own problems. Cast consist mainly of good looking guys. Clannad: Hero who helps other people get over their problems, but also has his own problems. Cast consist mainly of good looking girls. In my opinion Fruits Basket is much more of a harem show than Clannad with the way that you can't be sure about who Tohru gonna end up and having much more fan service. Clannad also managed to totally grow out of all "moe-show" cliches in the second half of After Story with the introduction of the only character in the show I consider to fall under the "needs to be protected" kind of moe. |
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Ceral
Posts: 28 |
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Clannad is Seinen by the way, aimed at the opposite demographic of shojo shows ;p. I'm pretty sure you were watching Kanon(or Elfen Lied, nyu nyu?), but honestly, if you didn't like that I would definitely advise you not to check out Air or Clannad either. Last edited by Ceral on Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mad_Scientist
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 3011 |
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You know, in an earlier post I mentioned the "moe genre", but thinking about it, is moe even really a genre?
I mean, as I understand it, moe refers to a certain character archetype, one that can be found in a variety of different shows, some probably made before the term moe even existed, or at least before it had widespread use. I suppose shows where the majority of the characters are moe could be considered "moe shows" and fall into the "moe genre", but simply describing the type of characters in a show doesn't really tell you what it is about. |
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Ceral
Posts: 28 |
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Well my problem was never that Bamboo was saying she liked the show or not. I wasn't trying to say that she should be saying she loves the show and to pour it on with how great the show is. I have a problem with how the editorial was reviewing the shows, not necessarily my show in particular. But, that was the show that I saw that I felt was being reviewed without respect. I think that's what I really want, that the reviewer respect what is being reviewed. Clannad is an Anime that is meant to be taken seriously, we can all agree on that I think. Instead of calling a show ridiculous or frivolous and than citing some plot element as the reason for why the show is such without any real justification is just wrong and short-sighted. I would like to know the problems of believability associated with whatever plot elements. Cite a plot device, and tell what you thought was right or wrong in the show about the device that didn't make it up to snuff or why you felt that one ridiculous plot element was done well in a particular way. If you're going to talk about Fuko and her being in a coma, and cite that as the sole reason for why the show is frivolous, that just makes me angry. I would like to know how well or poorly the show handled that plot element, were they able to keep the user engaged and believing in the fantasy while they were watching? And respect the show, you can say it's bad, but cite things like "Well the girls cutesyness wasn't very appealing to me, so it was difficult for me to enjoy the jokes." Or that "The plot felt a bit rushed, and I I wasn't caught up in the moment when the show started to get serious." That's what I would like, and you could say that you didn't like it , and I wouldn't have a problem with that. Respect what you're reviewing though. |
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Agent355
 Posts: 5113 Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready... |
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Thankyou, 4nBlue, you said it better and faster than I could. The two shows have a similar vibe, and knowing that Natsuki Takaya is a huge videogame fan, it makes sense that she took shows based on videogames and translated them to shojo manga. All the power to her (and Tokyopop) for doing so. What I don't get is, if Fruits Basket is the most popular shojo manga in the U.S. And Key shows are theamatically similar, why doesn't ADV direct their marketing towards Fruits Basket fans, and why isn't itt treated basically as shojo in reviews and the like? Cultural differences mean the show is received differently here, and Casey said something to that effect in this weeks CoA: in Japan, guys watch these shows for "moe" (whatever that is, because I'm not quite sure its transalatable) and in the US girls watch these shows because they can relate to the girls. They should be marketed and treated as such. It makes financial sense.
Oh, and about reviewer bias, I noticed one of the reviewers has a real bent on BL and yaoi, I assume she wasn't specifically hired to review those genres, but Casey always seems to do those types of reviews, and always represents that aspect of fandom in discussions.Another reviewer here prefers dubs and mentions it in reviews to disclose bias. I love that, it adds to how well-rounded the staff is here. So it really was insightful to hear that you tried to hire someone who could represent "moe" fandom, too. Does Abunai review anime here? (Abunai, I enjoy your insights on the boards; I would never want to debate you, though.  )
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pparker
 Posts: 1185 Location: Florida |
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My favorite definition of moe is, just some blogger somewhere: "Moe describes a certain type of stylized illustration of a young, cute, innocent, most often female human." It isn't a genre. And the above definition is broader, because originally it was supposed to be a feeling generated of protectiveness, specifically excluding sexuality, toward a character. Of course, this came from Japanese otaku, so we're talking about a guy feeling this for a girl, a young girl we can assume. In Lucky Star, Miyuki displays "moe" characteristics that Konata points out, like her clumsiness, that make her endearing. To me, Tsukasa is the classic definition of moe. Ironic, since Kagami won the SAIMOE this year and the final was Kagami vs. Tsukasa. That contest is supposed to elect the most "moe" character of the year. The way we're using it here is like the above definition, as in cute, young, big-eyed girls. We're probably being too liberal with it, but it cleanly differentiates a show from Code Geass or xxxHolic in terms of character design, for instance, with its CLAMP designs. You could argue that Eureka is moe, but I don't put her in that category design-wise even though she falls into the overall big-eyes anime design style. Of course, by the time you get to Texhnolyze, you're completely out of the territory. Rei from Evangelion, however, falls into that category from looks and from drawing empathy, IMHO. |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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abunai
Old Regular
Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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Mmm... yes, of course. I see. If the characters being portrayed are male, then they are "weird and wonderful, but socially damaged". If they are female, then they are "creepy lolitas created to cater to sexual stereotypes". Yes, yes. No double standard, at all. - abunai |
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ANN_Bamboo
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3904 Location: CO |
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I think there's a difference between a show taking itself seriously (or a show that's meant to be taken seriously), and being able to take the show seriously. There are many people who can, and do, take Clannad seriously. I find it a little hard to do so, because ultimately, I feel like *some* of the characters are a little unrealistic.
It's obvious you and I have very different views of what "believability" entails, but I'll try to explain some of my views in as thorough of a manner as possible. I flat out don't find Fuko (or Ayu, or Makoto) to be believable. And this is personally an issue of taste. Some people think it's "magical" that a fox became a human, or something. Some people think it's whimsical. Some people have no problem believing that a girl in a coma would physically manifest outside the hospital and interact with other humans. I find that ridiculous. And a little creepy, actually. And I *know* that's a difference of opinion, because fans of these shows probably do *not* think it's creepy, and that it's actually hopeful or optimistic or romantic or something. If you don't see the ridiculousness of a girl in a coma hanging out with people, then that is something we won't be able to reconcile. It's also ridiculous that in all of these types of shows, there is always something fundamentally broken with these girls that needs to be mended. And not just sort of broken, but extremely broken. It's over the top. Obviously you like these things, and that's cool. Note: these types of tragedy-after-tragedy things happen in Lifetime movies, and just like there are also huge fans of Lifetime movies, there are also a lot of people who find them ridiculous and hard to take seriously. Same with soap operas.
Obviously this viewer (me) was not engaged, and did not believe in the fantasy. I thought that would be obvious in the review. I thought it was ridiculous. I'm not watching the Sixth Sense, here. I think there are some movies/shows that can pull off these kind of supernatural elements, and some that can't. When I found out Fuko was in a coma, I wasn't shocked or pleased or excited or anything. I just rolled my eyes, because the whole shtick of these Key shows is to one-up each other on how broken you can make these girls.
This isn't about Clannad specifically, but I should mention that respect ought to be earned. Cartoons don't automatically get released with a built-in Respect Pass. |
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Agent355
Posts: 5113 Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready... |
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I find it funny that you don't recall the fanservice in Fruits Basket, because the fanservice is directed at girls! Everytime the guys transform back to human from animal, they're naked. Everytime. How could anyone forget a detail like that?
Go to Youtube, type in "Fruits Basket Anime Music Video" and count the amount of amv's that feature Kyo's bare chest. It will take a while...
As for harem, if you live in the Furuba world and you don't like Tohru, you will end up in a hospital and come to love her anyway. It's a rule. You may not like her as a 'girlfriend'(only 2 characters do, and she only responds in kind to one of them), you don't even have to be male, but you'll love her because she's like sunshine in a dark, rainy world. I love Fruits Basket, but I recognize that its a melodramatic reverse harem that's more than a bit silly at times. The fact that nobody calls it out on those pooints, and nobody complains that Momoji is too shotacon or that too many characters love Tohru as a mother, sister, bff, or gf, or that it has many moments of girl-pandering fanservice throughout the anime and the first half of the manga, just smacks me of sexism or at least a double standard of some sort. |
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abunai
Old Regular
Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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I'm sorry, did you just argue against an anime's believability from the position that "It has magical events, so it doesn't make a believable story"? Have we been watching the same medium? I don't know about you, but I've been watching these Japanese cartoons with guys swinging swords three times their size; giant robots; ESP-gifted children; alien girls in leopard-print panties; etcetera, etcetera. What have you been watching?
Yah, and of course, Fruits Basket is nothing like that. All the boys in that story are completely stable and have no wobbly bits in their minds, at all. And even if they do, it's okay, because Fruits Basket isn't a moe show, so it is worth taking seriously, and any stereotypes are just incidental. Look, Bamboo, I have no problem with you calling the Kanon / Air / Clannad corpus a cluster of soap operas -- that's an apt description, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, I do find the double standard between the "let's make a bunch of partially broken, emotionally troubled characters and enjoy their interactions" shows to be unreasonable. - abunai |
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