Forum - View topicINTEREST: Japanese Translator Explains Why Otome Games Fail in U.S.
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littlegreenwolf
 Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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I think this in all is just a poor excuse when really it's lack of promotion with the companies that tried to release some games here. Look at the American romance novel genre, and tell me how many have someone like Wonder Woman as the main character. Sure women in romance novels tend to be "firey" in their arguments with their macho men in their novels, but the women usually return to a submissive role in some situations, and I don't think it's as big of a cultural issue as they're making it out to be. I'm all for Wonder Woman comics and all, but I also spent way too much money on Voltage pay per character phone games, and every other otome game that gets released over here. If the story is good, we tend to overlook the crap heroine.
Meanwhile Western indie studios are popping up more and more on steam, taking the Otome formula and creating best selling games and surprise hits for their company. |
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Sakura-Alchemist
 Posts: 489 |
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If that is the case then it actually just shows how niche the otome game market in Japan is as Code Realize is one of their more popular games that Otomate keep's promoting and creating new content for. It even got a limited edition ps4, you know the thing where the console has the art on it. ---- Anyway everything about this article is talking out of it's ass. There is a decent sized otome game fandom even for the trashy mobile games, and the abusive vampire boyfriend games. As much as people talk badly about Diabolik Lovers it's one of the bigger otome based properties despite the abusive gentlemen to choose from. Alternative title could be: People who don't like otome games have no real idea about the audience and try to explain why industry is failing when it's not. You know what a common issue in the otome game fandom is? Telling people who complain about the localization to shut up because at least it's better than nothing. There is a fanbase and they will take anything they can get for better or for worst. Out of all the otome games I've played I can't recall a truly weak willed heroine. Even the most self insert-y type like Tsukiko from Starry Sky was still an overachiever. Yui from Diabolik Lovers was sassy as heck but she was never able to say those thoughts at loud out of fear of death basically. The only Heroine I can think of that I can say I didn't like was Asuka from Alice=Alice but that was because she was too cynical and dark, but it also dealt with issues that probably more Japanese culture related so I couldn't relate. |
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Lord Oink
Posts: 876 |
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Yeah, submissive women tropes do well in America, maybe she's just talking about how gaming sites like Kotaku and Polygon get a bug up their butt about female game characters and make a big stink about it. Just look at the reception of shows like Diabolik Lovers and Super Lovers got here, with complaints about 'rapey dudes' despite that clearly being what the audience likes. Fan reception VS critic reception. Twilight and 50 Shades love to be the punching bag of critics and people, but it didn't stop them from being huge successes. It's almost like submissiveness and rape is the most popular fetish for women but society has shamed them for it being 'problematic'. |
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leafy sea dragon
 Posts: 7163 Location: Another Kingdom |
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For those accusing the translator of changing things rather than simply translating: Odds are she's already tried a straight translation in the past but it either fell completely flat or got barraged by complaints or negative reviews. The decision to provide the female protagonists with more agency was, I am certain, a move to improve the popularity and overall reception of the people who play them.
This actually sounds a lot like the melodrama subgenre of romance that was popular in Hollywood filmmaking between the 1940s to 1960s. I watched a bunch of that as I took a class on melodrama film, and something I kept seeing was that the protagonist was typically incredibly passive but abused by her husband, and she would fall for a bad boy character who would only provide her more emotional stress. Maybe these kinds of stories in these otome games would've been popular in the west in those decades, but not anymore.
What about when the creator requests they be changed for different language versions? I love puns, for instance, including in characters' names. Should I get something published, I had already planned to put up a public notice requesting translators to change the characters' names to puns fitting their languages.
I think that also comes down to a matter of agency. The bad boy archetype exists both in the west and in Japan, but they are treated differently as characters. Here, that sort of character is depicted as someone to be tamed and overcome, like a wild beast. That is, the bad boy is bad because he hasn't had someone who truly loved or understood him, and the protagonist is the one to bring out his inner goodness. (Probably goes hand in hand with the monster romance stories that are selling really well on Amazon right now.) At least, that seems to be a theme in both romance movies I've seen and Harlequin romance books that are everywhere. I admit I haven't consumed much Japanese romance with bad boy characters, but I have seen a number of Korean drama shows with them. Not sure how different they are from each other, but the bad boy character in K-dramas tend to be that way for character development: They start out in that way, cold and brooding, and while they may remain that way to other people, they gradually warm up to the protagonist over time. That is, it's "The world is rotten and I hate people, but you are a shining light." It would sound a lot like the taming as found in the western bad boy archetype, but the fundamental difference is that the western protagonists are the ones to actively turn them good, whereas the Asian protagonists are much more passive and the bad boy becomes good simply by being around her. |
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Chrono1000
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The main reason that the Otome market doesn't work in the United States is due to political correctness and how anti-male it has become. For an Otome game to have a guy that is confident, intelligent, and powerful means that it will be accused of promoting toxic masculinity. That makes it difficult to find any Otome game that would be well received by politically correct websites.
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myskaros
 Posts: 600 Location: J-Novel Club |
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"Toxic masculinity" is not "guys who are confident, intelligent, and powerful," it's men who use their status as males to gain advantage in society or in domestic situations, regardless of their other traits. If your otome game has a man with the above 3 traits and treats the female protagonist well, then I doubt anyone would have a problem with him. If he abuses her or otherwise actually exhibits traits typical of toxic masculinity, and you're thereafter given the choice to pursue this character as a love interest, then yes, that game should rightly be known to promote toxic masculinity, and the masses with their wallets can determine if games with this mindset are acceptable. |
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Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6543 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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This isn't the appropriate forum to discuss net neutrality. Any further comments will be deleted. Please stick to commenting about the article.
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littlegreenwolf
Posts: 4796 Location: Seattle, WA |
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This is just no. Otome games are full of options for types of guys. Quit trying to politicize this. |
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whiskeyii
 Posts: 2256 |
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Y'know, Lindsay Ellis has an excellent Transformers* analysis video that dissects exactly why and how anti-male is not the same as toxic masculinity. I'd advise you to check that out. On-topic, the fact that women read and enjoy (typically shonen) manga with confident, intelligent, and powerful male characters basically renders this point moot. *EDIT: I was wrong, it was her Guardians of the Galaxy vol 2 analysis. |
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Beatdigga
 Posts: 4448 Location: New York |
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Lindsay Ellis should not be a valid source for anything.
That being said, yes, the complaints about passive female protagonists are a constant. These things target women so obviously there’s gonna be cultural disconnect. |
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grooven
Posts: 1426 Location: Canada |
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My issue with Otome games is the the writing. I haven't come across a title that has a beautiful story like in bishoujo games with powerful writing or themes. Also the settings and plot don't seem to intrigue me. Maybe there are some out there that I haven't seen? I haven't looked for a while and this was years ago I looked at titles.
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aquapainter
Posts: 5 |
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I can see the writing of heroines being an issue - I do definitely prefer games where she has more defined traits than just "nice and cute" and are instead fully rounded characters in their own right, but on the flip side, I've talked to lots of people who prefer otomes where the heroine has as little personality as possible for them to self-project into.
I do agree that I think promotion is part of it. I've had some issues lately where even as a big fan of the otome genre I seem to just keep getting surprised by releases? I recall trying to find out when CollarxMalice and Bad Apple Wars would be released was tough. If I remember right, CxM got maybe a week or so between the announcement of it's release date and said release date. I think it still doesn't have a proper trailer on youtube for the english version. The Code:Realize fandisc was also supposed to come out this year if I recall correctly, but we're running out of weeks on that one too without any word about if it's being delayed to 2018. I don't know what goes on behind the scenes at Aksys for deciding stuff like this, but I think that's really detrimental to building hype and word of mouth. And grooven, I'd definitely give newer otome games a look. It's true that even a few years ago there weren't a ton of great games in the English market to look at, but I'd say that maybe the newer and upcoming releases would be worth a look into. I know I already namedropped Code:Realize and CxM, but those games have some of my favorite stories in otomes I've played to date. I also think that Nameless, a game made by the same company that made Mystic Messenger, has been really sorely overlooked. So that's just my personal suggestions for people who want to try and give otome a chance. |
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whiskeyii
Posts: 2256 |
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Years ago I read that because otome games were (are?) so niche, publishers were more focused on recouping money over making unusual or creatively bold games. That meant having love interests that ran the gamut from sadist to shota, but also a bland MC so that when relationship dynamics shifted (i.e., a submissive MC with a possessive/aggressive love interest alongside a dominating MC and a submissive love interest), the transition between the "types" of MC were seamless. I don't know if that still holds true today, but I'd hazard a guess that concerns about turning a profit trump narrative freedoms for otome games. Then again, Hatoful Boyfriend is technically an otome game, so there's always hope. 
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Lord Oink
Posts: 876 |
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Hatoful Boyfriend is a meme game. The only time you hear about VNs in mainstream gaming are if its a meme VN like Hatoful, Dream Daddy, or DokiDoki Literature Club which all bank on absurdity, comedic gimmicks, and Twitch streamer reactions and promotions. Normal, traditional VNs go largely ignored outside their niche circles in America. Otome VNs are smaller still, and you can only go so small before they become impossible to profit from. But that's why fan translations exist. They don't need to be paid. If people want it bad enough, they'll translate it. |
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Wtv
Posts: 157 |
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And yet, BL is probably more popular than these games, and one of the reason fans give to like it is because the kind of treatment women get in other works doesn't interest them. It's a niche genre in Japan as well, so it doesn't make much sense to call it a cultural thing. Women are probably more likely to play a popular mobage than otome games, anyway.
The difference between west and Japan isn't that Japan likes it better, but people in Japan usually don't make a big deal out of it. Anyway, it doesn't make sense to compare it with WW, since the genre isn't as popular in Japan as WW is popular in the west. |
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