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errinundra wrote:

I'm 56 and prior to my current job in a call centre I was unemployed for over two years. During that time I would have fitted the definition of a middle-aged SNEP. Eventually I was, along with other assistance, assigned a mentor who helped me find my current job, which I've now held for two years.

I'm on disability (my particular muscular dystrophy would normally have put me in a wheelchair by now, but I'm stubborn), and also haven't worked for...Well, let's just say that in the current job market where even not working for three years makes employers perceive you as a homeless bum, it creates a lack of current experience and references that only vicious-spirals it into more difficulty to get a new job, chair or not. And that's in OUR country.

I'll confess it has its advantages in not having to go to work on a snow day, so I can sympathize with SNEP's social self-rationalizations, but if I were to tell that to the Japanese, I would have to add that I don't collect body pillows or masturbate over Madoka Magica dojinshi either.

Utsuro no Hako wrote:

I can understand how 20-something Hikikomori can survive by mooching off their parents, but what are these older ones doing to pay rent and get utilities? I didn't think the Japanese social welfare system was that generous.

Ikr? And where would they make good money online, if thats the case.... weird...

EricJ2 wrote:

... but if I were to tell that to the Japanese, I would have to add that I don't collect body pillows or masturbate over Madoka Magica dojinshi either.

Imagine then, if fellow anime lovers feel the need to draw a clear line to dissociate themselves from hikikomori, how do family members react on a daily basis? Note that I did not said family and friends for obvious reasons.

mdo7 wrote:

EricJ2 wrote:

Because they're neurotically acting out their own pressures to succeed, fail, achieve or conform, and pass it down the pecking order, the Japanese believe that the only way to get hikkikomori--who have retreated from social rejection and job failure--out of their apartments is to literally bully them back out.

...I see some basic logical errors in this strategy. Confused

Eric, that is one of the many thing in Japan I will never understand and probably will never be understood by foreigners like us.

You don't have to live in Japan to experience that. People who are unemployed are stigmatized everywhere. By calling them hikikomori Japan just casts it more as a mental illness. Elsewhere they're just called lazy bums. Bullying them back into the rat race happens regardless.

Last edited by mdo7 on Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

Kimiko_0 wrote:

You don't have to live in Japan to experience that. People who are unemployed are stigmatized everywhere. By calling them hikikomori Japan just casts it more as a mental illness. Elsewhere they're just called lazy bums. Bullying them back into the rat race happens regardless.

I will agree that a similar lifestyle exist outside of Japan, but the hikikomori phenomenon is very unique in Japan. That's why I said foreigners will never understand this.

Really interesting read in my opinion. There are many ways this can be interrupted because umemployed people provide employment for other people to assist then in locating work within an industry for example.

I personally have never had trouble with being isolated and working as I found work easily with high pay, own my own place, and have a healthy balance between work and my own life. It is all about balance, so I make sure work never takes over my life and same with my gaming/anime life.

You cannot blame people though for being isolated individuals when not just Japan's economy is in a slump therefore lowering jobs and potential work within an industry. But to add to that, the expectations placed upon individuals based off the fact you're to always work, watch sports, etc is what concerns me most.

mdo7 wrote:

I will agree that a similar lifestyle exist outside of Japan, but the hikikomori phenomenon is very unique in Japan.

I would go as far as to say that just as we call anime to the animation done in japan for japanese (which due to the local culture is different from everywhere else in the world), the same applies to long term unemployment, which due to the local culture influence it generates hikikomori. I have yet to hear one case of hikikomori outside japan, even though there are plenty of japanese living in the americas.

mdo7 wrote:

That's why I said foreigners will never understand this.

You seem to imply that these people are really understood by their fellow citizens.

mangamuscle wrote:

I would go as far as to say that just as we call anime to the animation done in japan for japanese (which due to the local culture is different from everywhere else in the world), the same applies to long term unemployment, which due to the local culture influence it generates hikikomori. I have yet to hear one case of hikikomori outside japan, even though there are plenty of japanese living in the americas.

Here, we call any voluntarily unemployed 18-24's "slackers", which ends up stereotyping them as stoners (and the increased snack appetite, and passivity that keeps them from being curious toward any alternative or career advancement), but few middle-aged examples.
At least that one has a little more grounding in fact than spreading the image that anyone without a job is devoting his life to video games and Internet porn.

mangamuscle wrote:

mdo7 wrote:

I will agree that a similar lifestyle exist outside of Japan, but the hikikomori phenomenon is very unique in Japan.

I would go as far as to say that just as we call anime to the animation done in japan for japanese (which due to the local culture is different from everywhere else in the world), the same applies to long term unemployment, which due to the local culture influence it generates hikikomori. I have yet to hear one case of hikikomori outside japan, even though there are plenty of japanese living in the americas.

As I said, it's very unique in Japan. The more I read about it from Japanese culture blogs and news. The more it baffle me, as I said it's very unique in Japan. Unless you have a published research paper from a western journal that can explain hikikomori, then it not going to be well understood, all we have is translated report from Japan.

If you guys think the middle aged closet case doesn't exist in America I suppose you guys don't remember the Trekkie stereotype, or parodies of said stereotype in the 90's and early 2000's through pop culture such as Fanboy from Freakazoid and Melvin from Futurama. You know, "Basement Dwellers."

Middle aged people living in similar situations do exist, though here they're not always completely unemployed. They often just have inconsequential retail-esque jobs to generate their disposable income.

When I worked at GameStop (I'm a legitimate B2B Sales guy now) we had someone who played the pity card a lot, playing up how he was mentally ill and such. The longer things went on, the more it came in to question. He started getting caught in blatant lies such as lying about reasons he didn't show up to work (Worst example was claiming his Father was in the hospital when another co-worker already knew his Father was dead.)

He lives largely on disability money, from his proclaimed mentality health issues. He eventually hinted to me that I should live a lifestyle like his, but noted it would be hard for someone like me to convince disability I was mentally unstable. Thus I was led to believe he lied his way into free money with the way he said it.

I believe he turned himself into something of a self-fulfilling prophecy, because while bipolar disorder is something he's most likely lying about, he does happen to be overweight, lacking in self-confidence, awkward and somewhat creepy toward girls he likes and something of an alcoholic. He's cultivated himself into something that is at least pushing the border of mentally ill, even though he's mostly just your stereotypical mega-nerd. He definitely doesn't live a very enviable life minus having time to play games all day.

This person is well in to his thirties by this point, placing him in the Generation X category. He uses the disability money to pay his rent, where others would just be living at home. I've met others that are just that. Less extreme compared to him, but still around the same age and working shitty, menial jobs to get their disposable income. Most of us know, the older they get the worse things are going to get for them. Once they hit 40+ years old, even places like K-Mart will question hiring them, and their parents aren't going to live forever.

The Millenial Generation is getting to the point where it's ready to fill those shoes. A lot of those 24-27 year old "slackers" are approaching the point where it's deemed unacceptable. They're falling in to the exact same pattern of living at home and only working for disposable income that said Gen X'ers I've met are following.

Some of the younger ones around my own age that I worked with at GameStop, one of them being my old best friend from Middle School, are currently working crappy part-time jobs in department stores like Ross and Kohls. Said ex-best friend actually quit a better job because it was "too hard" and willingly took the downgrade. He very much so still lives at home. I do not talk to him but on occasion out of curiosity I check his Steam profile and confirm he spends too much time playing video games to be doing anything particularly important. He has something like 2000 hours clocked on Team Fortress 2 alone, never minding he's been an MMO addict as long as I've known him.

I'd say I know at least 5 different people like this. All of these people may live in a town with a weak economy, but the thing is they're comfortable in their lack of ambition. They're about a 30 minute bus ride away from the single strongest job market in the country. They live over the hill from Silicon Valley. It would have been very easy for me to live a life just like theirs', particularly because I come from a poor hispanic household (A Mexican parent is usually accustomed to the idea of their kids living at home well past adolescence, as it is common in Mexico itself,) however I wasn't as afraid of failure as my friends.

I went to the valley and took advantage of the job market. Mind you, this is a job market where I, someone whom did not complete his college education, nor could afford more than community college anyway (degree would not have been the best choice anyway) makes 25 dollars an hour as a full time salesman, plus commission, while also having a weekend job as a teacher that also pays 25 dollars an hour.

The opportunity was there for anyone who was willing to trek from our crappy beach town into the big city. However, there are people comfortable with a lifestyle that is essentially the American version of Hikikomori.

This is incredibly sad.

Quote:

I have yet to hear one case of hikikomori outside japan, even though there are plenty of japanese living in the americas.

I engage in what could be called a hikikomori lifestyle, and I live in America. I left my place of employment three years ago, and other than the occasional side job, I haven't had steady employment since. Of course, my rationale is my own and doesn't speak for any of the other hikikomori that choose to live this way.

Despite being fully aware of the critical flaws in my lifestyle, I have even less respect for the "normal/employed" people that I have encountered in my lifetime. The people I have had the opportunity to know, mostly gain their living by enabling or worse, exploiting, the self-destructive impulses engrained in human nature. The other popular option is setting up shop as a cog in one of the forcibly protected systems such as the armed forces, insurance companies, and most governing bodies. Any system where there is no accountability to the people who are footing the bill is inevitably going to be syphoned, with little incentive to produce anything of value in return.

As messed up as I am, I would have even less respect for myself if I joined the ranks of these people. Now, I expect peoples' reaction will be to get needlessly defensive. If you recall, I already mentioned that I am talking about the limited, albeit substantial, sample of people that I have experienced in person. Now you might suggest, well instead of just criticizing the status quo, how about you find a way to contribute something positive. The answer comes down to self-confidence. It's so easy to get caught in the spiral of: Actions & appearances forming external opinions, then that outside perception becomes imbedded within your own self-image, which in turn affects your thinking, which in turn affects your actions and your appearance, and the cycle starts all over again until you feel like you've been hit with the Horo Horo no Mi. That's not to deflect responsibility, (everyone is ultimately responsible for their own choices), but I do think that society molds the people within and vice versa. Hopefully this individual perspective might lend a fragment to a greater understanding of the phenomena.

Edit: As for not going outside. Remember how I mentioned external perception influencing self-image? Well outside I either have to be false and forego any chance of meaningful human connection, or be forthright and receive external reinforcement that my existence is anomalous and worthy of shame. Also, outside, around people, I am reminded of the bitter paradox that is humanity's need for connection and their utter inability to be anything more than self-serving creatures. We are base animals of self preservation just like any other. The only difference is that we posses the capacity conceptualize a greater ideal and come to the understanding that we should be able to do better. Maybe you'll be able to relate to some of this, or maybe this is just an unwanted glimpse into the mind of a madman. At the very least, I hope it will enable within you, a greater sense of empathy for those who are so easily written off for being different.

wryguy wrote:

Middle aged people living in similar situations do exist, though here they're not always completely unemployed. They often just have inconsequential retail-esque jobs to generate their disposable income.

People like this are are called "freeters" in Japan (from "free"+"arbeiter"). They get by on part-time work but don't seem to be interested in building a future.

Also, wryguy, congrats on finding two good jobs in this economy! So many people are just giving up, and the drumbeat from the news reinforces the negativity every day (except right before elections, of course!).

Even so, opportunities are absolutely still out there, and I hope others can take some encouragement from your story. Did you just get lucky? One might says so, but luck favors those who create opportunities to encounter it. Stay inside all day, and nothing can happen. Go outside and make an effort, and all bets are off.

noblesse oblige wrote:

Quote:

I have yet to hear one case of hikikomori outside japan, even though there are plenty of japanese living in the americas.

I engage in what could be called a hikikomori lifestyle, and I live in America. I left my place of employment three years ago, and other than the occasional side job, I haven't had steady employment since. Of course, my rationale is my own and doesn't speak for any of the other hikikomori that choose to live this way.

Despite being fully aware of the critical flaws in my lifestyle, I have even less respect for the "normal/employed" people that I have encountered in my lifetime. The people I have had the opportunity to know, mostly gain their living by enabling or worse, exploiting, the self-destructive impulses engrained in human nature. The other popular option is setting up shop as a cog in one of the forcibly protected systems such as the armed forces, insurance companies, and most governing bodies. Any system where there is no accountability to the people who are footing the bill is inevitably going to be syphoned, with little incentive to produce anything of value in return.

As messed up as I am, I would have even less respect for myself if I joined the ranks of these people. Now, I expect peoples' reaction will be to get needlessly defensive. If you recall, I already mentioned that I am talking about the limited, albeit substantial, sample of people that I have experienced in person. Now you might suggest, well instead of just criticizing the status quo, how about you find a way to contribute something positive. The answer comes down to self-confidence. It's so easy to get caught in the spiral of: Actions & appearances forming external opinions, then that outside perception becomes imbedded within your own self-image, which in turn affects your thinking, which in turn affects your actions and your appearance, and the cycle starts all over again until you feel like you've been hit with the Horo Horo no Mi. That's not to deflect responsibility, (everyone is ultimately responsible for their own choices), but I do think that society molds the people within and vice versa. Hopefully this individual perspective might lend a fragment to a greater understanding of the phenomena.

To me you seem to have a bad case of cynicism. Though you may perceive the people around you to be those you cannot respect, your perspective is not necessarily valid in assessing them.

You could very well have been entirely wrong about quite a few people, or colored your interactions with them poorly due to your own actions.

Ultimately your own perceptions are infinitely more important than whatever external opinions you believe have helped to shape your current self. A negative mindset is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

You will doubtful ever be able to find your self-respect if you do not have a positive mindset that actively searches for things to feel positively about. Regardless of if you respect other "normal/employed" people, employment in itself is not something you should have any issues with as it has very little to do with the person itself.

I personally try to use the resources from my employment to help both myself and others. By being employed, I have the ability to contribute to others in meaningful ways such as giving a debt-ridden friend in desperate need of transportation to improve his life access to a car.

Mind you, I'm still trying to help people despite having just gone through cancer surgery. People wouldn't know these kinds of things about me if they were just judging me based on what little they actually knew from the outside. I have a dry and blunt personality, so people often assume I'm a jerk.

Perception can be a dangerous thing if you aren't careful about how you judge people.

vanfanel wrote:

wryguy wrote:

Middle aged people living in similar situations do exist, though here they're not always completely unemployed. They often just have inconsequential retail-esque jobs to generate their disposable income.

People like this are are called "freeters" in Japan (from "free"+"arbeiter"). They get by on part-time work but don't seem to be interested in building a future.

Also, wryguy, congrats on finding two good jobs in this economy! So many people are just giving up, and the drumbeat from the news reinforces the negativity every day (except right before elections, of course!).

Even so, opportunities are absolutely still out there, and I hope others can take some encouragement from your story. Did you just get lucky? One might says so, but luck favors those who create opportunities to encounter it. Stay inside all day, and nothing can happen. Go outside and make an effort, and all bets are off.

In a way it was dumb luck. I jumped from job to job until I landed where I currently am. In the past 3 years I've been an Assistant Store Manager, Traveling Retail Rep, Towing Company Service Person, Door to Door Salesman, Inventory Scanner and finally a Business to Business Salesman and a Teacher. I actually only just learned to drive within the past two years, seeing as how I needed the means to go find those jobs. I learned stick while I was at it.

I eventually realized if you want to find a job, you need to go to where the jobs actually are, which is typically the city. That's when I came in to decent money and something resembling a career path. Everything else was a learning experience that helped me get there. Luckily I did have the ability to stay at home while going through all of this. Considering all the missteps I made along the way I probably would have had a much tougher time otherwise.

wryguy wrote:

To me you seem to have a bad case of cynicism. Though you may perceive the people around you to be those you cannot respect, your perspective is not necessarily valid in assessing them.

You could very well have been entirely wrong about quite a few people, or colored your interactions with them poorly due to your own actions.

Ultimately your own perceptions are infinitely more important than whatever external opinions you believe have helped to shape your current self. A negative mindset is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

You will doubtful ever be able to find your self-respect if you do not have a positive mindset that actively searches for things to feel positively about. Regardless of if you respect other "normal/employed" people, employment in itself is not something you should have any issues with as it has very little to do with the person itself.

I think it's rather presumptive to say that my experiences are colored by cynicism without even a second hand account of those experiences. But fine, I don't want to derail this topic too much from discussion of the mindset of a hikikomori. I do agree about perception creating self fulfilling prophecies though.

My problem is not with the concept of employment or making a living, but how the person chooses to make a living. Part of the problem is the easily exploitable, self-destructive nature of the people I have encountered. The things that they exchange legal tender for are more often then not, harmful or misleading. So in order to be employed I must engage in the service of this fulfillment. Kurt Vonnegut once wrote something to the effect of "the only jobs a person can get is committing suicide in some way". I have always had a problem with accepting money in exchange for something that is misleading or harmful or something I perceive as having no value.

Quote:

Employment in itself is not something you should have any issues with as it has very little to do with the person itself

I disagree, a persons source of employment is very much a reflection of who they are. Are you to tell me that someone's actions for forty hours a week are to be dismissed as not indicative of character because they were performed in the service of making a living? Or because they are lower in the chain of command and "just following orders"?

Quote:

Mind you, I'm still trying to help people despite having just gone through cancer surgery.

I sympathize with your struggle with this disease. I don't know what type of cancer you had/have, but isn't it possible that someone, or many people, made a living creating something that directly caused your cancer or contributed to the environment in a way that indirectly caused it? Things like this are what contribute to my perception of employment. It could be the dentist that sold uranium-infused dentures, or the guy who simply sorts mail for a tobacco company.

Anyways, this is just one line of thinking that results in not seeking employment or caring to go outside aka "hikikomori".

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