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xstylus wrote:

Steventheeunuch wrote:

hikaru004 wrote:

Why did they set themselves up in this type of situation from the beginning? It's not good business sense.

They're under the impression that their fanbase doesn't hate them for no reason besides their own retarded prejudice (uhhh preference! thats a P word!) and lack of ethics.

Sorry, I have to call bullshit on the ethics excuse. The only thing they're guilty of is having the audacity to ask people to actually buy their stuff rather than leech. How sinister.

I've found the various US anime companies, including Bandai, to be quite ethical and INCREDIBLY kind and tolerant to the fan community. You have no CLUE how much crap they deflect from the Japanese companies for not being more aggressive, and all because the US companies don't want to upset the fandom. How sad that the fandom repays them by spitting in their face. You want to see bad ethics? Look at the RIAA and MPAA, the all time champions of cold, ruthless absenses of ethics. The US anime companies aren't even in the same universe as those two thugs.

I'll bet that if there was a company that did perfect on every release, did everything the fans asked them and beyond, yet asked people not to fansub their stuff there'd STILL be people shouting that they have bad ethics.

You must've misread it. What I meant was that the fansubbers have a lack of ethics. It's meant to read, like-

"They're under the impression that their fanbase doesn't hate them for no reason besides their own retarded prejudice (uhhh preference! thats a P word!) and lack ethics."

I'll fix that up right now, sorry for that. I agree that it's retarded people are actually complaining about this.

Steventheeunuch wrote:

xstylus wrote:

Steventheeunuch wrote:

hikaru004 wrote:

Why did they set themselves up in this type of situation from the beginning? It's not good business sense.

They're under the impression that their fanbase doesn't hate them for no reason besides their own retarded prejudice (uhhh preference! thats a P word!) and lack of ethics.

Sorry, I have to call bullshit on the ethics excuse. The only thing they're guilty of is having the audacity to ask people to actually buy their stuff rather than leech. How sinister.

I've found the various US anime companies, including Bandai, to be quite ethical and INCREDIBLY kind and tolerant to the fan community. You have no CLUE how much crap they deflect from the Japanese companies for not being more aggressive, and all because the US companies don't want to upset the fandom. How sad that the fandom repays them by spitting in their face. You want to see bad ethics? Look at the RIAA and MPAA, the all time champions of cold, ruthless absenses of ethics. The US anime companies aren't even in the same universe as those two thugs.

I'll bet that if there was a company that did perfect on every release, did everything the fans asked them and beyond, yet asked people not to fansub their stuff there'd STILL be people shouting that they have bad ethics.

You must've misread it. What I meant was that the fansubbers have a lack of ethics. It's meant to read, like-

"They're under the impression that their fanbase doesn't hate them for no reason besides their own retarded prejudice (uhhh preference! thats a P word!) and lack ethics."

I'll fix that up right now, sorry for that. I agree that it's retarded people are actually complaining about this.

Did Bandai/Production I.G./Manga set themselves up in a situation that they could loose their shirts if raws are released and fansubs are made? Why not use Bandai Channel and stream it? That would add another layer of protection on their end.

It looks to me like they've set up another situation of if they don't prosecute someone for fansubbing/distribution of fansubs they won't be taken seriously in the future.

This just looks bad to me anyway you slice it.

(off topic)
Did anyone post how much money was lost by Akane Maniax due to fansubs and raw releases since it was in a similar situation?

Last edited by chrisb on Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:27 am; edited 1 time in total

I agree with most that it's rather stupid to say you're going to sub a licensed show. Anyway I enjoy fansubs of unlicensed shows and if they are licensed I go and buy or rent even if I didn't like it. I just say if you use fansubs support the industry at the same time. Also I don't really see all fansubs groups as evil, on many of their sites they link to websites that sell the dvds and they constantly ask that their downloaders support the industry, it's just a few bad apples that ruin the image of the other considerate groups. Same goes to the downloaders who bad mouth Bandai or any other anime company just because they don't offer the shows for free, alot of us who use fansubs honestly do respect that when something is licensed we don't look to download it, even if the dvds are of bad quality like many of Bandai's dvds tend to be. If they are of bad quality well if you watched the show then go rent it and try to enjoy the show and ignore the flaws. Besides nothing could be as bad as to what they did to the American Slam Dunk and Air Master dvds (which is unfortunate because both were enjoyable.)

Last edited by xstylus on Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:35 am; edited 1 time in total

mrploddy wrote:

So well yeah to summarise -

1) DVD rippers and "some" new school fansubbers are scum. There is absolute no reason to rip R1's or sub licensed anime. Go and pay for it. If it's licensed you have an obligation to show your support to the legitimate lciensor
2) Fansubbing is moving away from the values upon which it was founded and heading down a dangerous "sensationalism" path as fansubbers want to sub the latest and greatest of which a lot screams sure fire license. This needs to stop if fansubbing is to survive the obvious legal challenges that face it.
3) Not all fansubbers are scum. Some do actually respect and support Region 1 licensors and some do actually pay for their anime and sometimes even more so than the average R1 fan buy spending the $$ on R2's instead of R1's.
4) Whilst you may want to persecute the R1 rippers and the "screw R1 licensors" fansubbers, don't persecute the fansubbers who still stick to old school values and sub shows that have only a very minimal hope of being licensed in the hope that one day a licensor might take a risk and license it.

Ahh, the good ol' days. I remember timing scripts for Kanon for viewing at a not-so-local anime club shortly after it was released on R2 DVD. We even had a no distro policy. We showed it, and if you liked it and wanted a copy, too bad, go import a copy or pray for an R1. That was back in 2001, if I recall correctly. Unfortunately, the club slowly started to disband when digisubbing became prevailent.

I wholeheartedly back you on each of your points, although one point you hadn't mentioned was that VHS fansubs required a small financial investment as well. I recall ordering tapes from other clubs and paying approximately $3 a tape for two hours worth of rare fansubs (one of which was surprisingly released by ADV earlier this year, which I gladly bought), so the free-for-all mentality wasn't in place. There was also a quality hit. Whatever quality your fansub was, it would always suck compared to a legit DVD, so you had a quality incentive to purchase as well.

Fast forward a couple years to the digisub age. Now people can download to their heart's content, and although it's not DVD quality, it's at least S-VHS quality. One can amass a collection and feel that the downloaded copy is good enough that they don't need to replace it with a legit copy. Boo on that.

I also feel that maturity has a lot to do with it. At the time, anime fans (or at least the ones in our club) were predominantly in their very late teens through to the early thirties. There was more reverence for the medium, and such people often had disposable income to fuel their anime habit. Nowadays most anime fans (or the demographic I see the most of at conventions) are mostly teens (or younger) who are often broke. In addition, their maturity levels are still in the emo phase wherein they feel that the world owes them something and that they are "entitled".

Yeah, I very much miss the old school days. I remember wishing very hard for anime to make it into the mainstream and to spread the great joy that is anime. Now that it's happened and I've seen the results, I wish I could put it back in the bottle. ^^;;;

Last edited by xstylus on Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:01 am; edited 1 time in total

hikaru004 wrote:

Did anyone post how much money was lost by Akane Maniax due to fansubs and raw releases since it was in a similar situation?

Those kind of things are impossible to calculate. Any such calculations would only be a guestimate.

xstylus wrote:

hikaru004 wrote:

Did anyone post how much money was lost by Akane Maniax due to fansubs and raw releases since it was in a similar situation?

Those kind of things impossible to calculate. Any such calculations would only be a guestimate.

That sucks. I thought that since Akane Maniax caused such a controversy with rumors of sales being cancelled because of the subs and raws that there would be numbers available somewhere.

mrploddy wrote:

Fansubbing is moving away from the values upon which it was founded and heading down a dangerous "sensationalism" path as fansubbers want to sub the latest and greatest of which a lot screams sure fire license.

Exactly.

I don't have much problem with fansubs themselves. The problem I have is with the fansubbers. And while I know there's plenty of good people in the fansub community, I feel that I'm probably referring to the majority. Many fansub groups seem to have a massive ego problem.

OK, so some don't drop a show when it's licensed. We've been there and discussed that. Personally this bothers me in some cases more than others, but I think more is said by how the fansubbers treat the show while they are subbing it.

Even many of the groups that do drop titles as soon as they're licensed seem to have a massive ego problem. Frankly, I don't care that "Dattebayo presents Naruto" or "Shinsen-Subs presents Tsubasa Chronicle". Fansubbers are welcome to credit themselves (hell, I would too if I'd written a script or timed the whole damn thing), but I don't need to see the group's logo, website address and IRC channel four times in a single show. No really, I don't. It's just blatant self-promotion and it does NOT show respect towards the original work. I've even seen fansubs that *obscure* the original Japanese credits in the interests of marketing themselves. Ugh.

I don't think fansubs are the reason for the supposed downturn in anime sales. I think that, with a few exceptions, they make little difference at all, whether positive or negative. Those who buy a particular DVD probably would've done so regardless; similarly, those who don't probably never would've in the first place. But I do sometimes wish a lot of fansub groups would get a harsh reality check and be forced to stop what they're doing purely for the reasons I outlined above. Even if most anime purchasers remain anime purchasers, many fansub groups seem to be doing it for all the wrong reasons now.

Edit: On a slightly unrelated note, I agree that the R1 companies should be quicker to get titles to market. I know they're producing a high quality product, but after a license is announced we should still be looking at a release in a number of months (not years!). And what's with the trend of releasing volumes at a snail's pace?? Most anime show an episode per week in Japan and they have to produce it from scratch; if you can't match that when all you're doing is adapting the script and recording new voices, you have a problem.

Sorry for rant. Razz

People who always shout fansubs are evil and people who fansub licensed anime should be shot at sight seem to forget one important thing (which is kinda expected considering ANN is more or less US site).
Although most fansubs are released in English language, there's significant amount of people outside USA who watch English fansubs even if they are native in another language (English being so easy to learn and often taught as first choice when it comes to learning a second language) and I guess there are some fansub groups releasing eng subbed anime that aren't USA based either. We (Europeans) couldn't care less about what gets aired on american TV (not to mention that we are not even officially allowed to play imported R1 DVDs, are we ?).
Another thing is often crappy quality of "official" releases. I don't want to go into another discussion about quality of VA or translation (or even that evil thing called "adaptation") but I still don't get why some releases (e.g. TPop manga) are actually bellow the level of a decent scanslation: basic spelling errors, typos, text misplaced out of bubbles or even words missing. I live in (from US standards view) quite poor country making less than 4 USD per hour and the cheapest manga costs me over 12 bucks a book so I get pretty pissed when I see the US publisher didn't even bother to proofread the text or check the layout.

The way I see it, this so called legal action will cease to exist. Whomever does it will just not take credit for it, nor place any credits on it. Then it'll surf around on IRC.

Lets see Bandai try to shut down IRC. I really do wanna see them try.

This argument seems entirely voided by that fact.

If they don't want people to buy fansubs, heres a hint. Make the stuff quality, get it out quickly, and don't charge an assload of money.

I didn't buy ANY of the GITS tv series dvds because it seems every release I heard of a production error, almost as if it was sabotaged or something.

Also, timing is off the essence on this things. For example, when Advent Children came out, most people had already watched it via the internet. I know I did. That didn't nessecairly stop me from buying it, but the fact that I had to wait months for it did bother me. Between the time it came out in Japan and America, I could have got into a fatal accident or something. Nothing is certain. I know I would have been depressed if I had died before seeing it, though.

The average new dvd release costs $29.99 in a store. Internet stores are cheaper, but alot of people don't trust them. The average new release for a movie is $19.99. Ten bucks may not seem like alot to some people, but I drive a 5.7 liter Hemi V-8 truck, and I need all the gas money I can get. Yeah, I love anime, but if I can't go anywhere, that effectively stops from buying anime or anything else.

Thats are just some points and examples I want to make.

Next, they'll release a press release statings it illegal for us to import the movie because they won't get our buck.

To me, this press release makes them come off like they're just whining because they KNOW people will download it. At this point, thats a given.

I could see how they're greedy though. There's a saying that goes "People who don't have money, want it and people who have money want more of it", and thats all too true.

According to the reports I read, SSS costs nearly as much to make as the original GITS movie. Since this is an OVA and both the screen and DVD street dates have been set, there will be no theatrical release. Most anime productions this expensive recoup their production costs through a theatrical release and only start making money once the DVD hits the market.

SSS needs to do BOTH as a DVD only release. I'm not saying this was a smart move, but it explains the more rigid stance taken by Bandai. It'll be Akane Maniax times 100 for them if this release bombs. Can you blame them for asking fansubbers to leave their product alone for once?

Fansubbers should just start up their own companies and license the titles they want to see get released themselves.

Oh wait they won't because they want everything for free.

With the exception of a few groups (i.e. live evil & central anime) almost all anime groups couldn't care less about the R1 companies. They're just concerned about seeing their desired anime as quicklu as possible and more importantly for free.

While fansubbing is a big problem, the ripping of R1 dvds is an even bigger problem. Companies simply aren't active enough in dealing with the issue of piracy. If they were then most of their anime wouldn't be appearing on Youtube.

I noticed Animeigo are geting all their anime removed by Youtube. Why don't other companies like ADV take action now? why do they wait around for years before they decide to do something.

bayoab wrote:

In your mind, yes. In the real world, no.

Actually, my outlook is for more realistic than any idealistic, contrived belief you may have regarding corporate marketing. But, *pats you on the head* you keep those warm fuzzy feelings.

bayoab wrote:

Congratulations, you have just entered the ultimate paradox. What is an unbiased source to you? The only source that could provide proof of the effects of fansubs is the companies and I am sure you don't consider jsevakis' (an industry rep) post or the funimation rep's post on AoD that we will be seeing more of this enough proof. You are caught in your own logical trap.

Are you trying to be blatantly ignorant or just playing at it? There is no paradox--companies, governments, educational institutions, etc. all employ some methodology to remove or reduce implied or explicit bias. An industry rep making a statement or charge without providing financial statistics reviewed by an independent source is meaningless.
The only logic trap is my taking the time to educate you regarding the REAL corporate world, but I'll assume you probably are too young to have a grasp on these concepts.

bayoab wrote:

Please explain in under 100 words how "fansubbing" Ghost in the Shell: Solid State Society will help sales. You may not use replacement for a TV airing as (it is claimed that) it will be airing on AdultSwim. You may not use that Japan will be seeing it for free as it airs on PPV. (I would like to see anyone do this. As another poster as already said, every current anime watcher is aware of the existance of Ghost in the Shell.) Here is how "fansubbing" GITS:SSS will hurt sales in 1 sentence:
People will download the sub and decide that since they got it for free and they didn't experience euphoria from watching it, there is no reason to purchase it.

Edit: 200 is too nice.

Oh, chuckles: "If anything, fansubbing has the potential to increase sales since saturation market economics is a basis for profitablity within commerical media distribution.

also from my previous post in Anserman's thread:

"Personally, I question any negative financial impact fansubbing may have, but as a former artist, I do understand the "creative copyright" concept. Still, in a commercial medium, fiscal incentives are through valuation by saturation as opposed to singular expressions of creativity with limited reproduction scope."

That's right you wouldn't get this. You are talking out your ass, as opposed to having any understanding of market, economics, business administration, etc. Do you have ANY understanding of the phrase "saturation market economics"? Are polysyllabic words too much for you?

If you're such a brilliant financial wizard, chuckles, why didn't you answer my initial questions? Come on....you can do it!

DISCLAIMER: It should be noted that no one in this thread is going to sway me from views without independent, unbiased data. Consider this before formulating a long-winded reply, which I may or may not respond to.

nagashi, ironwarrior: good on you.

Zac: is it not possible that those of us who don't support payment for artistic endeavors do understand capitalism, but give more weight to a key function of it: everyone, both producers and consumers, is looking for the best deal. The producer is looking to get the most money possible from the market; if that means using overcharging, intentional obsolescence or wear, complementary goods, etc., they will use them. Conversely, the savvy consumer will use whatever means at his disposal to reduce the price he pays for more product. If that means going to a warehouse club and buying by the gallon instead of the pint, he does it.

I don't know whether information wants to be free, but I want it to be. Rather than buying DVDs of television shows, I watch them on TV. I flip away or browse the internet during the adverts. If I do watch the adverts, I'm rarely (but not never) converted to a buyer because of them. Some people watch and buy more, some less. With books, I go to the library rather than the bookstore. Mostly. Movies, I see maybe one or two a year, and wait for the rest on TV. If a web site has a premium side, I rarely join. Bottom line: I don't want to spend money on informational entertainment; there's too much of it free.

Do I think content producers should make money? Yes, as much as they can, by the adversarial system. A writer should sell all the books he can, to people willing to buy the official book. A television producer should sell all the advertising space he has, so long as people are watching them. And an anime creator should get every dollar and yen he can out of fans. . . by convincing them to go to the official web site or buy official merchandise.

But, we know where this goes: I won't convince those who disagree and they won't convince me. And they won't get me to buy DVDs for the esoteric principle of supporting the creator and I won't get them to stop souring the market with their dub-loving, delay-accepting ways. And it's a good thing after all, because every person looking out for his own interests, that is the essence of capitalism, and in anime we have a very capitalistic system.

Well, I think the talk about regions and when they should be released will be useless within the next 2-3 years. The reason being that the new fomats will have different region coding. Blu-Ray will have 3(R1-Japan/North America, R2- Europe, R3-Rest of the world). HD-DVD seems to be region free at this time. So, most likely releases will start coinciding with each other.

Now, to all the people who protest fansubbing, what do you say to fans who have watched One Piece since the beginning then have it licensed only to have 4Kids to never release uncut episodes ever? Do you tell them that the 100 some-odd episode investment beforehand was useless and live with it? Or should they be allowed to get the fansubs of the show as it is still airing in Japan even though it is licensed? Or wait until 4Kids license runs out and hope someone else will pick it up?

nagashi wrote:

Zac wrote:

nagashi wrote:

Always good to know that the fine fine editors of this site reduce themselves to name calling. Go you!

But you are. You are clearly of reduced mental function. Why should I have to stop short of saying the truth simply because I work here? I shouldn't. You're allowed to come into my forums and say whatever garbage you like, which means I'm allowed to call you on it in whatever manner I choose.

I say "you're an idiot" not entirely as an insult, but because I sincerely believe it to be true. You are apparently too stupid to understand that entertainment costs money to make and that revenue is generated by people who pay for it. You either haven't thought about this, don't know what capitalism is, or don't understand what "business" is. I assume you're smart enough to operate a computer; that you apparently don't understand that money is traded for goods and services means you are - under the dictionary definition of the word - stupid.

I'd say that I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it's true.

You, sir, are an idiot.

I, in return, will not choose to call you an idiot. I choose to view culture/media as something that humanity owns, rather than individuals or licensors. As such, I also feel that we can develop ways to pay for shows (example: PBS. BBC/CBC. Or NPR. Hell, there are a TON of examples really) that are sustainable. It's a different view.

Yes, I'm quite aware of how capitalism works, and how it doesn't work. And to let you know, it doesn't work at all in the distribution of non-scarce resources. And that's what culture is in the age of digital distribution.

I don't consider your view idiotic; just different and outdated. Mine simply doesn't believe in private ownership, nor in artificially imposing a scarcity economic system on something that is fundamentally non-scarce now.

Answer me this.Does a community come up with all of the ideas?The answer is no.Do invidiuals come up with the all ideas?Yes they do.Can a community follow a single idea?Yes they can.Hence ideas and such are privately owned and not community owned.Did i just prove your idea wrong?Yes.People are allowed to think and express their ideas.While i dislike the idea of name calling you seriously can continue to believe what you say is true.
On other note i think all companies should start doing what bandai is doing.The days of fansubbing here in america are outdated.The only reason why it existed here in america in the first place because lack of realible companies releasing anime into the market.

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NEWS: Bandai: Do Not Fansub Ghost in the Shell Film