Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Mushoku Tensei: Jobless Reincarnation II
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ktarf
Posts: 7 |
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I don't really see any big "contortions" by the story to accomodate this. It did feel a bit too fast overall, which might or might not be an adaptation problem, but the characters mostly behaved like I expected them to. Roxy was fully aware and ready to give it up, Norn vocally and strongly opposed it until realizing her father and hero did the exact same thing, and Sylphie has always liked Rudeus for who he is, perversions and all, she knows how devoted he's always been to Roxy and sees how she's helped him during another really dark and difficult moment, so she accepts her as someone just as important to Rudy. I'm not saying everybody should like this development, and obviously it's Rudeus who gets it better at the end, but the situations and the characters were set up in a way that allows it. I'd argue it's only unsatisfying if you don't want Rudeus to be too successful and content, or you wanted this to result in a sudden change of character for Sylphie, otherwise it's fine, if a little fast. |
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Gina Szanboti
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Disclaimer; I'm not all that invested in this story, so I might have some bits wrong. But it seems to me that Roxy is really being given a lot of slack here. Imagine if we did some gender swapping and Roxy was a much older male teacher (say Rick) and Rudy was Ruby, his young female student. Some years later they meet up again and Rick then had sex with a very depressed and emotionally vulnerable Ruby (who's still a teen) and then they get married. Would no one have a problem with that, even with a spouse not factoring in? I think Roxy's getting a pass because she looks like a 12 year old girl. She couldn't possibly be taking advantage of a depressed teen boy. Nah. No, in that scenario, I guarantee we'd be hearing how Ruby isn't really a teen girl, but a 40 year old woman.
Anyway, my main take away from the revelation of Paul's death was that Rudy was lucky to have lost his hand, since that was the only thing that convinced Norn that he hadn't been slacking. And it seemed slightly amusing to me (not necessarily out of character though) that as someone who had memories of being reincarnated Rudy was talking to Paul as if he were hanging around in the afterlife rather than off to some new adventure in another world. |
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NeverConvex
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I agree with LT, with the addition that I consider Sylphie's personality one of those contortions. She's been written with nothing but satisfying Rudy in mind from the very beginning, and that does make this moment somewhat more plausible in-universe. But that makes me think the cast dynamics are tailor-fit to produce a harem for Rudy with minimum fuss, and to remove him actually having to navigate having seriously hurt a partner like this. Doormat from beginning to end is more consistent than doormat only when convenient, but it's still a doormat, which is a lot less interesting than a person. I also don't think it's all that hard to imagine slight tweaks to Sylphie's character that could leave her equally besotted with Rudy but behave in a way that actually creates some interesting tension and fallout from his betrayal. Like -- remove the line from a few episodes ago where she proactively suggests he take a mistress, add some clear evidence of insecurity on her part and fear that he may grow tired of her, portray her as struggling with that issue particularly as Rudy leaves her mid-pregnancy for a long journey, etc.
Focusing on Rudy seems pretty natural given he's the p.o.v. character around which most of the narrative seems warped, but, yeah, agree that Roxy's got plenty to feel guilty about here as well, and that she did take advantage of him. And I don't even want to touch the age/body component of that again... |
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Gamen
Posts: 249 |
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Take it or leave it, but having already implied the "age is just a number" card a few posts ago, despite her age this is still only Roxy's first real romance... that we know of. But as demonstrated by Cliff and Elinalise it's not clear the story cares about that either. These aren't exactly healthy relationships. Rudy literally worships Roxy and Sylphy, and Sylphy is much the same towards Rudy.
...while not positioned in the story quite where you would like it probably, there was a private conversation between Sylphy and Rudy that night where she revealed (some of?) her insecurities. Cut for time, of course... I mean, this is mostly a good adaptation, and even stuff originally written for TV or cinema gets cut for time, but still... it still contributes to my mistrust of adaptations. Like, again, they snipped Elinalise tricking Rudy into thinking he got Roxy pregnant as his motivation, subtly changing the context of this whole "taking a second wife" scene despite them not materially changing the scene itself... except to also cut Roxy acknowledging not only that he was unlikely to be faithful, but that she also believed he was serious and would take responsibility. |
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jdnation
Posts: 2032 |
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Well, I enjoyed the season, although I do have some sour points about how the ending was handled.
For one thing I was hoping the Roxy conversation would take place some time later, but on the very same day that everyone comes back, Sylphie is still pregnant, and Norn finds out Paul is dead and everyone is still coming to terms with that heavy stuff??? Man... have some tact! There's no reason at all that Rudy needs to introduce Roxy just yet. They couldn't wait a week at least??? Personally, it would've been good to have put it off for a year so that both Rudy and Roxy can think about this a lot more, and it's not just the trauma, feelings, and pressure, or desperate excuse about gratitude doing the talking... like really... Nonetheless, Norn's reaction was good, and also the resolution of drawing a comparison to her step-sister's existence was also a good way to get her to cool off on the hostility. But it's nice that she will still carry some resentment towards Rudy for this, while still respecting him as her brother. This was good. Slyphie - I'm a bit disappointed about how this was handled. I think a similar compromise to Norn in terms of her feelings would've been better than the way she just laughingly accepted it. She could have accepted it, but also made it known to Rudy that she was hurt or at least let down about Rudy, even if she suspected that of his character, as he made a lot of big talk about how she's the only one for him, and there should be some cost to the relationship, even if she still loves him and accepts Roxy. That way, Rudy could've still taken an arrow to his heart while maintaining his relationship, and looking to make it up to Slyphie in other ways. Or Slyphie could've even asked for time to think about it, inquired of her grandmother as to what exactly happened, and come to understand that Roxy took advantage of Rudy's state, and while Rudy still shares blame, she might have at least pity Rudy, while initially being a bit resentful, but peaceful towards Roxy. And no doubt in time, just as with Paul's family, everyone would eventually get along as they get used to each other, and even come to love one another as family. So this resolution and Roxy reunion to wife was like a span of 3 sudden episodes, it feels unearned, the romance feels heavily cheap and subpar compared to the development of the relationship between Rudy and Eris, and Rudy and Slyphie. Well, that said, I look forward to the next season. |
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LinkTSwordmaster
 Posts: 424 Location: PA / USA |
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Agreed. It's why I brought up Dexter - one of the many reasons the audience found the show's conclusion so unsatisfying originally is that it was simply just.... an end. The obvious finale for the show was actually burned much much earlier in the series, so by the time they just kept getting renewed and renewed, there wasn't really much room for Dexter to grow or change - the writers more or less just maintained the status quo until the finale, at which point it was too late to interject and change course. Cut to a few years later, they actually produced one final season as a special, and it took one of the show's longest running seeds that had been planted and gave an incredibly satisfying conclusion. The difference in the writing quality between that special and the show's original finale is remarkable and I think successfully captured the tension from the first few seasons. It's dangerous, from a writing perspective, to give Rudy a win just because he's the main character. He has knowledge he shouldn't, unnatural aptitude for magic, a "cheat" for an eye.... He risks being read as a Gary Stu (a problem I have with Kirito - he's the main character, so of course he succeeds). This is counterbalanced in moments where he's injured in some bombastic fashion, his past life comes back to haunt him, or the Hitogami shows up and throws his resolve into question - there are things out of his control in spite of how much power he posses. When the show successfully weaves in moments where Rudy loses control over his situation, and presents him with moments to grow/change and overcome, how these puzzles+solving are paced and presented to us go a long way to making the world feel realistic and the characters credible and believable. Case in point, Rudy got teleported with Eris and the fix was a wild journey of grand scale - no quick magical fix or demon friend to send him back home in an hour. The adventure elements are generally really well-thought, so again, I find it really bizarre that other areas of the show are not so elaborate. The show feels like it simultaneously wants to feature relationships front and center, and yet barely spends any time on the complexities of them. I'm of the mind that a story with endless potential that falls short of its promises is much more infuriating than something notably lame from the outset - you expect something cringey to remain cringe. I'd hope that going forward that if the current season ends with Rudy trying to "grow up" that there would be tougher conversations about honesty and boundaries in future seasons (something that Polycules live or die by IRL btw) - but the story thus far has as Gamen said, lost my trust and suspension of belief, that they'll be able to do the necessary scenes justice in the same way that figuring out some of the adventuring problems have been solved. |
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T3rmidor
Posts: 66 |
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Well, I pretty much stand to what I said last week in that the poly aspect feel forced. Honestly I think I stand pretty much by all the criticism I have given to the series but I will give a point in favour in that this second cour hasn't been as controversial as the first by a wide margin, if only bc the first set the bar very low. I think the series would have been better without this type of polygamous relation but whatever, the fantasy fullfilment aspect has always been there. Will most likely watch the third season as I see more positives than negatives, but doesn't mean I could see a much better story being done with a different aproach to storytelling and it's characters.
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TarsTarkas
 Posts: 5892 Location: Virginia, United States |
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Considering divorce, crime, and other unhealthy statistics, the term 'healthy relationships' is more of 'ideal', not a realistic concern for most people in our world. And is used more often to bash other people and fictional characters that don't meet our high standards, even though we most likely don't meet them either. |
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Gamen
Posts: 249 |
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I mean, in-story they have some concept of unhealthy relationships since even Paul recognized the extreme level of attachment Sylphy had to Rudy, and promptly bundled him off to tutor Eris. |
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ktarf
Posts: 7 |
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Great final episode review, I agree with pretty much everything. The analysis of Sylphie's reaction and the overall cheating situation is exactly how I felt about it but wasn't able to put it so well, really nothing to add.
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jmckenna15
Posts: 136 |
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As both this episode demonstrated, and Richard alluded to his review, Sylphie is far from a doormat here. Nor has she ever been. If she was a doormat, she would have just let Roxy leave without saying her peace. Instead, she let Norn vent her justifiable anger, understood that Rudeus didn't shack up with Roxy just because she was there but rather because he was in the state he was in, and saw Roxy as she was. This was a situation that she settled on her terms. Not Rudeus' and Not Norn's. She made the mature decision to acknowledge the role Roxy played in Rudeus' life and in that moment. She then talked Norn down by helping her come to grips with the situation by referencing what her father did as well -- who she looks up to. Sylphy understands this family and what it's gone through. She understands Rudeus, she understands Roxy. No "doormat" can show that level of agency and rationality. It's not just puppy love either. She genuinely loves Rudeus and understands what he needs. She sees and loves his great qualities but acknowledges his weaknesses. Like Roxy, they both know (and love) the whole person. |
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Akcoll99
Posts: 238 |
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I'm sorry if someone else already pointed this out as I'm late in coming back to this thread and there are a lot of...lengthy...posts about the Roxy/Sylphie situation. But in the novels, something that is described in greater detail is the marriage situation in this world Rudy is reincarnated into. Basically, polyamory is fairly common and accepted by the general populace. Even the commonfolk. So Sylphie being accepting, and even suggesting the mistress, is in line with the morality/set-up of the world. The one exception to the polyamory rule, as Norn points out, are the followers of Millis, which is the proto-Catholic religion in the central continent. Zenith and her family are Millis followers, which is why she was so upset with Paul. Because they preach, and she expected, monogamy. I can see how an anime-only viewer might not get all that when the only relationships shown so far have been Paul/Zenith and Cliff/Elinalise, which are both monogamous. I think the anime's biggest failing is in not making that cultural dynamic clearer. |
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freebird1994
Posts: 78 |
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Mushoku tensei has certainly been a......."unique" series to say the least. Most weekly reviews i've seen surrounding isekais don't tend to get more than a few comments per episode. Even some of the more mainstream popular series are barely breaking 100 or so over their run. But here sits Mushoku tensei easily breaking over 1000. And the conversations in the threads for both seasons have been interesting to say the least. Here's to season 3, but I don't know if I want this level of interaction to continue into the new season. Mostly because I don't know if that will be a good or bad thing. 
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MFrontier
Posts: 12008 |
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Norn really got put through the emotional ringer in this episode, huh? Find out your dad is dead, your mom is basically a vegetable, and your brother is a philanderer all in the span of 10 minutes. And yet she still tries to control her emotions and act maturely about them. And Saya Aizawa really killed it vocally. I feel like Norn is my favorite character coming out of this season.
I'm glad Norn and Aisha have become closer as sisters and both Norn and Rudy let Aisha be honest with her feelings and reconnect with Lilia. This season really convinced me that raising your own daughter as a maid is super unhealthy. I hope Paul is happy in the afterlife knowing that his son takes after him so much and Zenith loved him so much she clutches his gauntlets even without her memories. I feel like Mushoku Tensei is usually a lot deeper, more involved, and well-constructed compared to your usual Isekai fantasy show...but the whole resolution to the thing between Rudy, Roxy, and Sylphie felt like classic male power fantasy fulfillment where the MC gets to cheat on his wife and end up with two brides who are head over heels in love with him and only him and everything is hunky dory. That's not to say I'm against him being able to marry multiple women or am against his relationship with Roxy or Sylphie, so much as just the execution felt lacking and too convenient to me. On paper I understand that Sylphie grew up in a household where Rudy's dad was married to two women and it turned out okay...and she's not devout to Milis or anything and she was also used to that kind of stuff from her time with Asuran nobility. So I get on that front why she would be more accepting. But at the same time her husband slept with another woman while she was pregnant and worried about him. It just felt like Sylphie got turned into this perfect 1st wife who is so loving and magnanimous she's willing to accept a Harem and her husbands' desires no question and even accept the second wife as a sister. I wonder if part of it is also just a weakness in building up Rudy and Roxy as a romance. I understand how important she was to his childhood and why under the circumstances she'd fallen in love with him at first sight in the present, but compared to Rudy's relationship with Eris and Sylphie where we got like an entire seasons worth of build up to them hooking up, Rudy and Roxy becoming a thing over the course of 2-3 episodes just doesn't feel as satisfying. I feel bad for Norn that she had to play the designated bad guy and the one person willing to call out Rudy and Roxy for what they did. She was a little excessive and disrespectful but she was also the only one willing to take Roxy to task for her responsibility in this. And she was the only one advocating for monogamy and treating this like a big deal making her feel the odd one out. Felt like she deserved better than that and got turned into a fight she can't win when even her beloved father did the same thing. It's ironic that Elinalise was the one who advocated for Rudy to go the polygamy route and tried to smoothe things over by making sure Sylphie knew he loved her...when she returned and spent the night with the only guy she's actually in love with. Lilia extricating herself from the family meeting because she didn't want to go through this again. I'm curious to see how far Norn will go as a swordswoman. But it's nice to see Rudy mentoring her both with their fathers' words and training her in the sword like Paul did. Welcome to the world Lucie Greyrat! That's right! Rudy created a brand new life in this world! It really feels like a big culmination in Rudy's character development that he's not only accepted Paul as his father but realized that using his past memories as a crutch to remain emotionally detached from his new parents and everything else in the world was a sign of how childish he really was. It feels like he's really come to a point where he's truly become Rudeus Greyrat. Rudy's got me wondering whether Paul's party was also half his Harem with Zenith, Ghislaine, and Elinalise and Zenith was the one who "won." Really great season 3 teases with the new Ruijerd + Badigadi traveling duo and three seconds of Eris, complete with her hair grown back. If season 2 ended with Rudy with two wives, will the 3rd culminate in wife #3? |
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NeverConvex
Subscriber Posts: 2364 |
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I think it's come up a few times in the thread; I don't think I ever commented on it, though, and it's OK to restate it, anyway. I agree the anime is oddly understated about it, but I don't think it would have changed my thoughts for it to paint the world as highly polyamorous, because I think the key issue here is the betrayal of trust / cheating and how the story resolves that, not whether Sylphie would ultimately be down for bringing in a third partner. i.e., it's about broken trust and honesty, which if anything seems more important in a multi-partner romance. Last edited by NeverConvex on Tue Jul 02, 2024 5:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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