Forum - View topicBest Supporting Character Tournament: Post-Mortem
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Abunai, if you think that I made those posts because all I wanted was a chance to rant, then you are wrong. I genuinely believed - and of course still believe - that the ruling is totally unfair, not to mention inherently unworkable in eliminating the influence of such reasoning. But I've made my case; that you've deigned not to even consider it (something which goes against what you posted here) is of course your prerogative.
And that's all I've got to say about that. |
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RHachicho
 Posts: 897 Location: Essex, UK |
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I can see you're point dtm42 and I agree for the most part. However the something something is a main character argument is an exception to this. The tournament was started via a nominations process and indeed wether a character was a main or support character was considered at this time. I happen to disagree with both this formula and the results it produced but the time to argue that point is not now. This vote .. as many are was constructed under pretenses that define how a voter should frame his/her argument. And they are hardly draconian.
To bring that argument into this stage corrupts the vote. As many people including me will be voting under the assumption that all characters qualify for a vote. Having whatever opinion on the character you want is fine. You can argue that one character is better because you hate his hair if you like. However a characters status as a supporting character is something that has already been put to a vote. And should be taken as a given at this stage. I apologise if my earlier post inferred the opinion that i was supporting the "something is a main character" argument. I will make it clear now that I do not. If I might be so bold as to say that both dtm42 and abunai's last post fair enough stank of ruffled feathers and furious keyboard typing. Please both of you allow you're feathers to settle and just enjoy the show. As a side not Serei no Moribito was 10 tonnes of awesome. DVD's inc and will take pride of place on my shelf =) |
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zawa113
 Posts: 7358 |
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Ok, then if you won't accept that I still think Nabuca is too much of a main, which is not something I think of any other character who has made it this far in the tourney (or heck, even into the tourney itself), then:
I also think Maes was better as an emotional crutch to Ed and Al and had a more dynamic involvement with the show. Nabuca was more an allegory for child soldiers but I don't think that necessarily makes him a good supporting character in the long run, not when Maes was always there for Ed to help him and give him assistance. I'm going based on seeing all of NTHT and the first half of FMA, btw. I'll go edit my original post too. |
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nightjuan
 Posts: 1473 |
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Group A-29
Maes Hughes, Fullmetal Alchemist franchise vs. Nabuca, Now and Then, Here and There Voting for: Nabuca Two very interesting choices here thanks to all the different arguments provided. Even though I'm more familiar with Hughes here and inclined to support him by default, I've decided to do otherwise. While it would be much easier for me to follow my instincts and preexisting knowledge, Nabuca wins out by virtue of he what represents for Now and Then, Here and There and the moral dilemmas this helps bring about. The clips also do a good job of backing up what has been said about the character so far. Granted, I'm willing to admit that his personality might not be that interesting on the surface, all in all, which would be one of the areas where Maes Hughes has a clear advantage, but that's where specific details and opportunities for development come in. If the second clip serves as any indication though, I shouldn't be too worried about that. Group A-30 Lt. Yamamoto The Irresponsible Captain Tylor vs. Nabeshin, Excel Saga Voting for: Lt. Yamamoto I've already mentioned that Nabeshin doesn't do much for me, considering that his role in Excel Saga wasn't too amusing when compared to, say, the likes of Pedro. I would say he was a less interesting character and not humorous enough to make up for that. In Lt. Yamamoto's case, however, there certainly is more to him than just the comedic angle. The first clip might not be the best example of what I'm referring to, but the second is a bit more helpful in that regard. By the end of the series, he does go from being Tylor's foil to a relatively developed and likable character. That being the case, I'd rather vote for him instead. |
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The Naked Beast
 Posts: 1028 Location: A Blue Planet |
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Group A-29
Maes Hughes, Fullmetal Alchemist franchise vs. Nabuca, Now and Then, Here and There Hughes provides great support to many of the main characters in the Fullmetal Alchemist anime and manga. He is probably the closest thing to a spy since he works in the intelligence department. spoiler[Discovering that there is a conspiracy that involves some of the highest echelons of the military, Hughes does his best to expose such corruption. Alas, his efforts have all but ended his marvelous military career.] Despite his spoiler[early departure from the series], he still has managed to fire up (if you will pardon the pun) the Flame Alchemist, Roy Mustang. Hughes' selfless act has also inspired the Elric brothers to expose the shadowy workings of the Homunculi. After the brutal civil war that nearly brought Roy Mustang to end his life, Hughes and Mustang have decided to change the military to ensure such an atrocity would never happen again. My vote goes to: Maes Hughes. Group A-30 Lt. Yamamoto The Irresponsible Captain Tylor vs. Nabeshin, Excel Saga, et al. I am not familiar with either character but I would have to go with Lt. Yamamoto like I have in previous rounds. I thought his character profile was better so he garners my vote. My vote goes to: Lt. Yamamoto. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18458 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 4 Group A is now closed.
With classicalzawa's votes now counting and The Naked Beast slipping in just under the wire, the final total for the 25 votes: A-29: Maes Hughes defeats Nabuca by an unexpectedly close 14-11 margin. A-30: Lt. Yamamoto more comfortably defeats Nabeshin 17-8. Honestly, I thought Nabuca was the only person in this group who might beat Maes Hughes, so the only suspense for me going into next round is how big his victory margin is. Does Hughes deserve it? That remains to be determined. Next round should be up within the next hour or so. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18458 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 4 Group B is now closed.
Results can be seen here. Boy, Kurz Weber must like being this deep in this Group - he's surrounded by three ladies! (And don't think he wouldn't be too intimidated by Balalaika to hit on her, either.) In all seriousness, though, we should have a couple of good ones here. Balalaika was surprisingly challenged last round, and Kurz Weber is no pushover, either. Can he give her a similar or stiffer challenge? In the other match, Winry and Admiral Spoor both garnered outright majorities last round despite facing two opponents each, in the process cruising to victories. Given the solid support behind Spoor so far this tournament, it's anyone's guess as to who wins that one; following arguments there should be interesting. Oh, and even though it would not be a factor with these participants - since they're all uncontestably supporting characters - I will reiterate once again: any arguments based on whether or not a character is truly a "supporting" character (as opposed to a main) will not be considered valid for purposes of justifying your vote, and we should not see those arguments at all anymore. You're certainly free to disagree with whether or not a character has a status deserving of being here, but the time for those debates in this thread is long, long past. Group B-29 Balalaika, Black Lagoon vs. Kurz Weber, Full Metal Panic! franchise Group B-30 Winry Rockbell, Fullmetal Alchemist franchise vs. Letopanyu Spoor, Crest/Banner of the Stars franchise Last edited by Key on Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:18 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18458 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Got time to vote early this time around. . .
Group B-29 Balalaika, Black Lagoon vs. Kurz Weber, Full Metal Panic! franchise This one might seem obvious, but is it? Balalaika has such a formidable presence that even hotheaded heroine Revy, who respects nothing, respects her; few are the anime leading ladies who even rank in Balalaika's league in this regard. She is capable ruthless, efficient, and thorough, but not completely above getting riled up - and gods help you if you do get her riled up! - or letting her weariness on some matters show. Though clearly a supporting character, she is arguably the most distinctive supporting character amongst a very colorful cast of them. Kurz is too good in his own right to be an auto-loss here, though. He does not have the screen presence that Balalaika does but is more versatile in the functions he performs and he is more frequently and directly a supportive element to the series' leads. He stands on a level with some of the tournament's best in terms of comedy relief, too. In the final analysis, though, screen presence makes the difference for me. Balalaika for the win one more time, though Kurz is too good to deserve a blow-out here. Group B-29 Winry Rockbell, Fullmetal Alchemist franchise vs. Letopanyu Spoor, Crest/Banner of the Stars franchise This one is a much harder pick. Winry has a great and important value to her franchise beyond the role she plays as Ed's mechanic and the childhood friend of Ed and Al; every worthy shonen series needs a grounding-element character like her. She gets developed well and has some pretty potent scenes, too. (If she makes it to next round, I'm going to recommend that ccdx consider the scene where she confronts Scar in episode 22 of Brotherhood for her next clip.) The one thing that might hurt her, though - especially in this match-up - is that she is also a Girl Who Must Be Protected and thus must rely on others to take action for her. That is certainly not a fault that Admiral Spoor has, as she is one of the Space Force's boldest and most effective military commanders. She also has a wealth of personality and attitude and a fine physical form to boot, which makes her endlessly entertaining to watch. (Do be sure to read the translation of the inscription early in the current video clip.) Her conversation with Jinto and Lafiel upon rescuing them - which is, unfortunately, not shown in either clip so far - is priceless. She is very nearly as formidable a screen presences as Balalaika is. Wow, making this analysis is making this pick even harder, as I think both are worthy of making round five. Since I have to pick, though, I will give a very slight edge to Spoor based on using screen time more efficiently. And besides, I think a Balalaika/Spoor match-up for a seat in the Final Four would be a much more interesting match-up to argue. 
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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B-29:
Honestly, I do not see what Kurz has that is so impressive. As I said before, he's no funnier or better as a supporting character than all the stock blond-haired pretty-boys who act as the comedic relief. He's done well, but by no means exceptionally well. Most of his jokes and antics are completely by-the-book cliches and tropes, making him a character that is inoffensive (for Anime) but not noteworthy. Balalaika does have screen presence, she is interesting, she is different, and she does add spice to her series. This one isn't even close. B-30: Let me just say from the outset that I will be voting for Winry. Now to the reasoning behind it. I have three problems with Spoor, although they are all sort of related: The first is that the Crest/Banner franchise is about Jinto and Lafiel. Spoor is interesting and does use her screentime effectively (to a degree), yet she is simply eclipsed by the main duo. And that means every time she is on screen I wanted her off it so that I could get back to the real reason I was watching the franchise. Her second problem, related to the first, is that she does nothing to help her franchise out apart from being memorable in and of herself. She does interact with the main duo, but it's limited as Jinto and Lafiel do not change and grow because of her presence. She has no influence on their character arcs besides being in a position to save them a couple of times; she is simply there. The third is that her opponent has a lot of screentime. Full stop. I know that may not seem fair to Spoor, but tough, it is a valid reason (albeit the most minor of the three). Despite not being a main character, Winry has oodles of time across one hundred and fifteen episodes to give me reasons to vote for her. But we never get to know Spoor. We never get to see her affecting the wider plot and the main characters like Winry does, simply because Spoor doesn't get the time. And time, folks who have bothered to read this far, is important. Not critical, but it does help a lot. Don't get me wrong, this isn't an anti-Spoor vote. Well, it technically is, given that I'm voting for her opposition, but...oh, you darn well know what I mean. I just find it easier to frame my reasoning with regards to her. I've always thought that Winry would go far (and deservedly so), and in my opinion Spoor isn't worthy of being the one to bring her down. |
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ccdx
 Posts: 312 |
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Group B-29
Balalaika, Black Lagoon vs. Kurz Weber, Full Metal Panic! franchise No question. This one should go easily to Balalaika. Every time she is on screen she is either doing something that certainly grabs the viewers attention or saying something quite memorable. She's a bit low on the "helping the main character out" aspect, but I think her screen presence more than makes up for that. Group B-29 Winry Rockbell, Fullmetal Alchemist franchise vs. Letopanyu Spoor, Crest/Banner of the Stars franchise Winry is a strong contender. She doesn't really get going until half way through the series. After that point, she helps the main characters Ed and Al out in main positive ways. I wouldn't be surprised if she wins this matchup due to her immense popularity and somewhat unfortunately, the higher popularity of FMA vs. BotS. However I will still vote for Spoor. You must first understand something about my vote. I tend to lend more weight to the on screen presence and memorability of a supporting character, more than how much they help the story progress or help the main characters. I want to see something I've never seen before and I want to think back on a character and say, "Damn he/she was great. They almost made the series and certainly out shined the main characters on many occasions." Winry in my view suffers in this regard, as she tends to fit the standard more typical role of an anime supporting character. She doesn't show me anything I haven't already seen many many times in other anime series. She can, at times, be quite annoying as I am not fond of the cutesy hyper obsessive type of character. You never really know what Winry will be appearing on screen at any given time. As opposed to when Balalaika or Spoor are on screen, they always play their role to a T, and it never ceases to impress. To fully understand how great Spoor is, you would have to watch BotS. Once you see and understand how the other characters act in the series (slightly more boring and stiff) you'll be able to truly appreciate what Spoor brings to the table. If you were to compare who stands out more in their respective series, Spoor or Balalaika, it would easily go to Spoor. There are many more great examples of her refined/crude sense of humor later in the series that I hope you all will get a chance to see in future clips. |
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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Group B-29
Balalaika, Black Lagoon vs. Kurz Weber, Full Metal Panic! franchise Kurz cannot compete with Balalaika’s ruthless presence, he is all right, but in the end Balalaika leaves a stronger impression. Group B-29 Winry Rockbell, Fullmetal Alchemist franchise vs. Letopanyu Spoor, Crest/Banner of the Stars franchise Winry is a well-done supporting character, but she is up against Spoor, who in her series shines more and brighter than Winry shins in her, every scene with Spoor is priceless or very close to being priceless. Her comments are distinctive and as a result memorable. Winry may have more time, but Spoor uses her time much more effectively and her colourful personality definitely allows me not to miss the main characters. The sheer power of Spoor’s presence is outstanding and unfortunately Winry, with all her merits, cannot compete with that. |
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3966 Location: New York state. |
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Match B-29: Balalaika (Black Lagoon)
While a fun character, Kruz doesn't have as much with his character being talented sniper and goofball flirt compared to the grittiness, depth and presence that Balalaika provides in her series. Match B-30: Winry Rockbell (Full Metal Alchemist franchise) She may be a wee bit archetypal. But Winry has more interaction and involvement with aiding and influencing the Elric Brothers than Admiral Spoor has with Lafiel and Jinto. The colorful banter and leadership qualities Spoor displays don't mean much to me in this match if she doesn't influence and assist the main characters as much as Winry does. |
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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As we near the end of the tournament, the competitive field for the mini-game inevitably thins. As the scores stand at the moment, there are only 4 participants who are capable of winning, and we're down to 10 who are in the running for prizes.
Key (136) holds onto first place for now, but both Olliff (132) and mow (131) have gained on him in the last round. Fourth through sixth place remain unchanged, being dtm (107), Ggultra (103), and TG23 (101), now all being in triple digit scores. The rest of the results. |
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LydiaDianne
 Posts: 5634 Location: Southern California |
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Group B-29
Balalaika, Black Lagoon As much as I enjoy Kurz, it is time for him to bid adieu. Balalaika is the superior supporting character here. From suggesting that Rock commit what would be suicide to her spoiler[merciless handling of a psycotic child], yeah, she wins in my book. Group B-29 Winry Rockbell, Fullmetal Alchemist franchise Winry - I still have to go with my heart here. Yeah, Spoor is good but like dtm42 said, she doesn't help the main characters grow. Winry does. She reminds them that they are family, human and lots of other things. She is big sister, mother and girlfriend all rolled into one. Last edited by LydiaDianne on Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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RHachicho
Posts: 897 Location: Essex, UK |
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Group B-29
Balalaika, Black Lagoon vs. Kurz Weber, Full Metal Panic! franchise Personally I found Kurz to be somewhat stereotypical especially when compared with Balalaikas pure menace and force of personality. For me Balalaika wins hands down. Group B-30 Winry Rockbell, Fullmetal Alchemist franchise vs. Letopanyu Spoor, Crest/Banner of the Stars franchise. While Letopanyu Spoor is a very good character. Winry edges her out in my estimation. Winry has a deeper connection to the main characters and a more interesting well developed personality. She also contributes a bit more to the plot in her own right imo. Letopanyu does win in terms of "style" but not by enough. Therefore my vote goes to Winry Rockbell. Last edited by RHachicho on Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:42 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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