Forum - View topicBest Supporting Character Tournament: Post-Mortem
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18458 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Only 16 votes so far - that's pretty low. Is a flood coming in late?
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Well, this lot (of matchups) have generally failed to excite. Which is not a reflection of the quality of the characters, but something else, something harder to define. Mid-tournament malaise?
I do intend to vote before the deadline, but afternoon tea comes first. |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16963 |
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This tournament fell right in the middle of the Fifa World Cup and the MLB is getting ready for their All Star Game tomorrow. Those both are enough to deter people's attention and time. Plus you've got summer in full swing with summer vacations and outdoor activities. Love this place but if my choice was being online at a forum or a nice fun outdoor BBQ with some sweet tea and spiked lemonade...well nice knowing ya lol. Sort of glad Biggest Badass didn't win this last time around now that I think about it.
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nightjuan
 Posts: 1473 |
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Sorry I couldn't get back to this earlier, so perhaps it's better to kill two birds with one stone.
Group D-25 Kuu, Haibane Renmei vs. Osono, Kiki’s Delivery Service Voting for: Kuu I've seen one or two interesting arguments for Osono, but overall the role Kuu plays in Haibane Renmei and, in particular, spoiler[her departure] seem to have more than enough impact and meaning going by what has been previously argued in her favor. Group D-26 Tanda, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit vs. Euphemia li Brittania, Code Geass Voting for: Euphemia li Brittania I suppose a lot of people will be too busy or bored to read anything about this so late in the game, particularly given the relative lack of remaining interest in the issue, but I guess it's still worth making one last statement. Before finally deciding on this vote I went back and re-read some of the latest posts dealing with this match and, in particular, re-watched Tanda's clip. Let's try to be objective here: If I knew absolutely nothing about both characters or the shows involving them, my conclusion would probably be a vote in favor of Tanda. That is to say, it is the most likely option for an external observer when most of the present factors -both those that are directly relevant to this tournament and others which are incidental at best- are taken into consideration. Curiously enough, perhaps this is at least in part a predictable result of my earlier call for more information on Tanda, which resulted in a couple of additional arguments in his favor that I can't entirely ignore. I feel that RHachicho's right about Tanda having -or at least transmitting the sensation that he does have- a certain "richness" to him, which may be one of the invaluable underlying benefits of the fact Seirei no Moribito was based on a critically acclaimed novel series. Dorcas_Aurelia has also brought to light an interesting comparison and a couple of observations that have a subtle yet far from insignificant effect. Under different circumstances, those and some earlier comments would be enough to -at least on paper- convince me of Tanda's superiority on both a personal and intellectual level. That would be a reasonable assumption. Be that as it may, I have to mention the gist of why I'm still choosing to vote for Euphemia. First, I continue to believe in the bulk of the previous arguments about her merits as a character and, as a result, the gap between the two contenders should probably be smaller than what it is. Second, I still have some doubts. For example, I'm unsure about how memorable Tanda would ultimately be, particularly if I had already seen the ending of Seirei no Moribito and could look back from an informed perspective. I've noticed some rough indications here and there, but I'm worried about reading too much into them. And finally, I think Euphemia -along with a few other characters I've voted for in the past- is a good example of how being part of a preexisting character archetype isn't always a bad thing in context. There's room for creativity even when the amount of originality is technically limited. That's about it, really. Hope I haven't rambled on for too long, though I felt it was more or less necessary to do so. But look at the bright side: I'm already done and nobody's forcing you to read this. 
Group D-27 Ami Kawashima, Toradora! vs. Pedro, Excel Saga Voting for: Ami Kawashima As much as I do sympathize with Pedro, in spite of my limited appreciation for Excel Saga as a whole...there appears to be no contest in terms of which character has the greatest amount of development, characterization and importance. It might be a bit unfair to have to choose between them, given the visible differences in series tone and purpose, but the fact remains: humor can only carry you so far and Pedro, all in all, doesn't have much else. Having said that, I imagine Ami herself will have to face tougher competition during the next few rounds. Group D-28 Akio Furukawa, Clannad franchise vs. Gai Daigoji/Jiro Yamada, Martian Successor Nadesico Voting for: Akio Furukawa Can't deny that this was a bit troublesome. I'm only familiar with Gai and have previously recognized his merits but, to be perfectly frank, the clip and the different arguments in support of Akio have managed to overcome my initial reluctance. In particular, I believe Key and Skylark have made some interesting points. That being the case, the choice has more or less become a matter of personal preference and what one wishes to value at any given point in time. The video footage appears to make Akio a more versatile character while still having an entertaining personality and, if some dramatic depth is added as per the available descriptions, the result should be quite convincing. Does that mean I dislike Gai? No, but as much as I do recognize his influence it's hard to claim that he was ever quite as interesting as a character. I would say this is enough for the time being. |
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mow123
 Posts: 339 |
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Group D-25
Kuu, Haibane Renmei vs. Osono, Kiki’s Delivery Service Kuu's presence in the story places her at the crux of what makes the plot of Haibane Renmei shine, I also disagree that she's a character of circumstance. There's a lot more substance to her character than others have let on. Group D-26 Tanda, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit vs. Euphemia li Brittania, Code Geass I have always felt that Euphie was a heavy hitter and Naked Beast's recent campaign has reminded me why she is such a great character. She has depth as a character that extends he past the peacekeeping princess type of character that some have overly simplified her as. Compared to Tanda, her character is much more emotionally heavy hitting and involved in the main story, and it's hard to argue that Tanda has an edge in uniqueness when he is about as traditional as they come as far as supporting characters go. Group D-27 Ami Kawashima, Toradora! vs. Pedro, Excel Saga Won't go into detail because Abunai has forbid it, but I think that Ami's presence in the this tournament is an unfair one. Characters that get this level of focus, characterization, growth and development even if they are clearly not the two most central characters compare way to well to characters who are more truly supporting in nature. I think the main reason why many did not voice their opinion against is that she was a gray area case, but at the same time a great character and memorable character. I also have to hand it Pedro for a near perfect execution of a simple, but still enjoyable and high impact type of character. Group D-28 Akio Furukawa, Clannad franchise vs. Gai Daigoji/Jiro Yamada, Martian Successor Nadesico It pains me that I did not have time earlier in the week in order to campaign for Gai since at this point his defeat seems imminent mainly due to a few very focal opponents. Since time is an issue for me tonight, I will summarize what I said earlier. I still believe that Gai is one of the most epic supporting characters in terms of raw influence and presence despite only appearing only in the first volume of the series. He is the embodiment of an anime mecha fan boy in a world where all of his dream are a reality. He’s also one of those characters that's larger than life, and has his very own distinct style. Despite being constantly silly, he also has a large impact on the main character of the series far after his spoiler[ very sudden sacrifice and death ] that seemed very fitting for his character while at the same time being a surprise and a plot twist. More important than being a parody, Gai serves as an inspiration to the main character and without the series would be very different. Also his presence is very clear when the crew meets the "aliens", heck one character is a basically a tribute to his character. While the characters are very different in personality, there is undeniable similarity between Gai’s role and Wakaba’s role in their respective series. Gai also arguably has one of the highest influence versus actual screen time ratios in this tournament right up there with Wakaba. Bit shocked Gai isn't doing better since Wakaba has eased through her rounds. He should go far, but at this point that doesn't seem likely. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18458 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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More emotional? I'll concede that. More involved? As someone who has seen every second of both franchises, I can say - definitively - that isn't true. Tanda gets directly involved early on, stays involved throughout, and is an active participant in every important event in the latter two-thirds of the series, including the series' climactic scene. Even Euphie can't claim that. (And I'm only bothering with this in case someone is thinking about a last-minute vote change, as Tanda's lead isn't that comfortable.) |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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D-25:
It is hard to get enthusiastic about this matchup. Both are contenders I feel should not move on. I originally thought that Osono shouldn't even have made it past the first round, but now I see that it was her gentle pushing that helped Kiki get established and get confident. Kuu was important but any of the other Haibane could have fulfilled her primary role just as easily. Osono by a hair. D-26: Tanda's clip was far superior (Euphemia was missing from like half of her clip), but nightjuan does make a good point. We are not voting based on the clips alone. And Euphemia's direct actions have a huge bearing on the second half of the first season, while her indirect actions (like spoiler[dum dum dum]) is simply a game-changer for R2. Tanda is rock-solid, but Euphemia is just too notable and too influential. D-27: I'll admit, it is very hard to consider this matchup without letting bias enter my decision-making. I hate Toradora!. I hate it hate it hate it. And I've always thought that Excel Saga was too zany and wacko to exist in this dimension or the next. So it comes down to the character that grabbed me in the end. And surprisingly that was Pedro. From what everyone had said about him I thought that I'd dislike him, since such ridiculously tragic characters are not exactly my cup of tea. But he was funny, in a schadenfreude sort of way. As for Ami, well the bitchy yet pretty girl who manipulates everyone around her has been done before, and she doesn't seem to add anything new to the table. D-28: I've never understood the appeal of Super Robot characters (or Super Robot full stop), and Akio is an important reason why me - dtm42, A.K.A. "the guy who hates Harem and Moe" - has actually been enjoying Clannad. To be able to change my mind on those topics just proves that he has charm (in his own crazy way). |
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nightjuan
Posts: 1473 |
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I would have liked to hear about that in more detail earlier, since a lot of my doubts about Tanda have to do with the last part of Moribito and, ultimately, what does or doesn't come of it. If he wins, perhaps it would be a good idea to go into that a little more later on. But in all fairness, it's hard for Euphemia to spoiler[be an active participant after she's already dead...] although even the last episode did have a couple of references to her or her situation. Last edited by nightjuan on Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Skylark
 Posts: 827 Location: ORE NO TSHIRT |
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I'm bothering because I think those votes deserve to change this late in the round; so same reasoning but other side of the coin?
I think that is somewhat unfair on Euphie, as she is essentially the sole motivation driving both Cornelia (who got to this round on her strengths alone, most of which were fueled by anger over the shame that Euphie's spoiler[ultimate demise] brought to Euphie's good name) and Suzaku, both of whom's actions were inherently affected by the actions of Euphemia, their love for her and her impact spoiler[pre-geass, and her completely unfair and emotional death brought on by the geass.] Admittedly a lot of Euphie's supporting role comes from being a spoiler[martyr that no one really knew about; everyone just thought of her as the genocide princess so no one really knew of the good she had intended and the work she did to achieve it.] That said, even as royalty she pushed herself amongst the people and fought for the rights of the conquered without resorting to violence at any stage, and even spoiler[had enough staying power to fight off the geass in the last moments of her life after being shot, such was her compassion for the supposed enemy of Britannia.] Ultimately I think she had a massive impact on both seasons of the anime. Unfortunately to undermine the credibility of my argument, I haven't seen the series hosting Tanda, but if someone else who has wants to back me up here... Might be fighting a losing battle though, not sure why so few people are voting here. Others have said this is a weak group, but this group has some of my favourites in it. :\ |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18458 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 3 Group D is now closed.
A mere 19 votes does, I believe, tie for the lowest total so far, despite some healthy arguments in many matches. The results: D-25: Kuu defeats Osono 14-5 in the round's closest match to a blow-out. D-26: Tanda holds off a late push by Euphemia li Britannia, 11-8. D-27: Ami defeats Pedro 12-7. D-28: Akio Furukawa outclasses Gai Daigouji 12-7. So, while none of the matches ended up going down to the last minute, three were at least competitive. This sets up a couple of intriguing match-ups for next round. I will be especially interested to see the arguments in the bottom half of the bracket, as I'm honestly not sure at this point how I'll pick that one. And that now leaves us with the Sweet Sixteen, so it's time for the first. . . Power Ranking!!! For those who haven't seen these in the past, this is 100% based on number of votes earned out of total possible votes. The results for Rounds 1-3: 1. Maes Hughes, 93.05556 2. Kisuke Urahara, 85.29412 3. Balalaika, 84.50704 4. Winry Rockbell, 81.69014 5. Tomoyo Daidouji, 77.94118 6. Kuu, 77.27273 7. Wakaba Tsukishima, 75 8. Akio Furukawa, 72.72727 9. Lt. Yamamoto, 72.22222 10. Ami Kawashima, 69.69697 11. Nabuca, 69.44444 12. Rakashun, 69.11765 13. Kurz Weber, 69.01408 14. Tanda, 68.18182 15. Letopanyu Spoor, 63.38028 16. Nabeshin, 55.55556 The ones on top are really no surprise, as all of the top 6 were in the top 10 on nominations and five of the top six are the same as five of the top six in nominations, albeit in a slightly different order. (The one that's missing from the top six of nominations? Kimura, of course, who is replaced by Tomoyo, who was tied for 9th.) Most of the rest were also in the Top 20 on nominations. Based on nominations voting, the biggest surprise is Nabuca, who at 4 nomination points had two fewer than the next two lowest (Akio and Wakaba). I didn't do quite as well at pegging the seeds this time. Of the sixteen I placed, 11 survived, although three of the absentees (Gai Daigouji, Mao, and Kimura) did at least make it to Round 3. Of the other two, I apparently gave too much credence to Kazuko Yoshiyama's 9 nomination score and Roy Focker had the misfortune to run into the probably-undernominated Shikamaru in Round 2. All of the #1s are still active, though. And I'm not even going to try to break this group down by roles, since so many of them fit into multiple categories. Anyway, I'm having some technical problems at the moment with the computer that's set up for updating the Guide files (that's why I am posting this so late), so I don't know if I'll be able to get the next round up and running yet tonight or not. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18458 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Round 4 Group A is now closed.
Results can be found here. While we still may have some blow-out matches, I must say that this is one of the most solid Sweet Sixteen sets, from top to bottom, that we've ever had for this tournament. I don't see any overwhelming favorite in the lot, nor do I see any weak link, either. None of the competitors still left made it this far without being deserving. Anyway, I just want to reinforce abunai's previously-stated ban on any discussion involving whether or not characters are merely supporting characters or actually among the lead protagonists. The time for such discussion has passed and it no longer has a place here. Group A-29 Maes Hughes, Fullmetal Alchemist franchise vs. Nabuca, Now and Then, Here and There Group A-30 Lt. Yamamoto The Irresponsible Captain Tylor vs. Nabeshin, Excel Saga, et al. Last edited by Key on Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Skylark
Posts: 827 Location: ORE NO TSHIRT |
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Thank christ. Group A-29 Maes Hughes, Fullmetal Alchemist franchise vs. Nabuca, Now and Then, Here and There I gotta go Nabuca here although I feel I may be the minority. Nabuca for me was one of the key characters in making Shu see the harsh reality of his predicament, and his developing priorities as to what is really important over the duration of the series had me captivated. He really did stand out as a supporting character and I feel he deserves to go on. Group A-30 Lt. Yamamoto The Irresponsible Captain Tylor vs. Nabeshin, Excel Saga, et al. I'm voting for Lt. Yamamoto because I think I picked him in the minigame, but this isn't a solid choice and I could be swayed. I'm very much apathetic of this particular grouping, so convince me. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Lt. Yamamoto's second video clip doesn't work.
Despite that, I will still vote now: A-29: Hughes is going to win this, but the more I see of Nabuca the more impressed I am. He's sort of a warning as to what Hellywood can turn even the strong-willed into, what Shu would have become if he wasn't, well, Shu. The moment I saw the look on Nabuca's face after he killed the assassin was the moment I decided to vote for him. It encapsulated the emotions of a terrified young man who - though brainwashed to kill - was suffering so much his mind was numb and his soul was mourning. Nabuca, because he deserves at least a vote. A-30: I haven't watched Lt. Yamamoto's second video clip, and I will, don't worry about that. But unless it is significantly strong I will vote for Nabeshin. I haven't watched past Excel Saga's first episode, but Nabeshin seems to embody the show. From the clip, it looked like he was egging on the show, which in turn was fuelling him. He would be completely out of place and horrible in a "normal" show, but in Excel Saga he is a perfect fit and a great supporting character. Nabeshin, because damn that guy's out there. |
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abunai
Old Regular
 Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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Group A-29
Maes Hughes, Fullmetal Alchemist franchise vs. Nabuca, Now and Then, Here and There Difficult choice, but not that difficult. While I have supported Nabuca all along, since he is such an important illustration of the fundamental evil infesting the society he lives in, there is no way he can match up to the impact of Maes Hughes. Hughes' influence is felt throughout the anime, and like Wakaba Tsukishima, he affects everyone (although, unlike Wakaba, his influence does not extend to people who have never actually met him). His surface frivolity and lack of focus is entirely a façade -- on several occasions, we are shown clear indications that a person of great intelligence and determination lurks below the silly exterior. He is not just funny and charming, he is also very much impressive. And, most of all, he is moving. I doubt anyone can watch spoiler[the episode wherein he dies, and especially the way that his death comes about,] without choking up a bit. He deserves my vote in this round. Group A-30 Lt. Yamamoto The Irresponsible Captain Tylor vs. Nabeshin, Excel Saga, et al. Two fairly evenly-matched characters, but I think perhaps Nabeshin has a slight disadvantage here, in that Lt. Yamamoto is more fully characterised. Nabeshin's greatest weakness is the fact that the viewer isn't given much character depth to relate to. Nabeshin is all surface. On the other hand, what a surface it is! I had to think pretty hard here. I was going to give it to Nabeshin, on the basis of his awesomeness, but I believe I shall give this one to Lt. Yamamoto -- simply because, on thinking it over, I can imagine him going past the next round (albeit with a very small chance), while I can't see Nabeshin deserving to go all the way. - abunai |
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RHachicho
 Posts: 897 Location: Essex, UK |
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Group A-29
Maes Hughes, Fullmetal Alchemist franchise vs. Nabuca, Now and Then, Here and There Voting for Maes Hughes Although Nabuca is a decent supporting character in his own right I am not sure he can live up to Maes Hughes who was a friend/comrade/example to many of the characters. spoiler[And his death was particularly tragic given how much he seemed to treasure his life. I think this was what really got Mustang going as he sometimes seemed just about ready to give up on his.] Group A-30 Lt. Yamamoto The Irresponsible Captain Tylor vs. Nabeshin, Excel Saga, et al. Voting for Nabeshin as I do not believe that his type of character should not be penalised too much for lack of depth. The shows he is in are usually crazy and off the wall. Characters are usually seem to come from a factory where they compress caffeine and hormones into human shaped bricks. None of the characters in one of his shows really have what you would call dramatic development. On the other hand when we compare the stylishness of the two characters Nabeshin definately comes out on top by enough to get him my vote. |
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