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NEWS: Takeshi Nogami Responds to CNN's Rapelay Report


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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@



Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 3498
Location: IN your nightmares
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:41 pm Reply with quote
Dernhelm wrote:
adultery is negative precisely because of what it is, a term coined by these religious groups that pertain to the sinful acts of extramarital sex.
Actually this is kind of the thing I was making a point about. Things coined as sinful by religious groups are sinful by the religion's standards, but the proponents of that religion seem to think the standards should be universal and apply to everyone. Christians think all people are sinners, particularly people who are not Christian. So is the standard really a Christian standard, only they should follow, or are they stressing these are rules for which everyone must follow (and only upon realizing the Christian faith can someone recognize and repent those sins)? The bible clearly states it's the latter.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:51 pm Reply with quote
GWOtaku wrote:

His argument boils down to two core points. The first is his array of statistics about how crime in Japan is much more rare than it is in America, which is fair game. He therefore concludes that hentai games have no negative effect on Japanese society. Yet while it may be safe for a woman to walk around in Akihabara, it's also too often a challenge for one to ride the train without getting groped by some anonymous pervert.


Are you a chick?
As a gal who's gone from shy in my youth to being a tad more vocal by my 30's, I wonder if those train cars aren't just a nod to those shy shrinking violets who are portrayed as fairly common in Japan.
I have long been amazed at the idea of CPR is somehow stealing a first kiss, yet we see this in many anime & manga. (It's called saving a life, not romance). If First Aid can be viewed in this light by many Japanese, could not a casual brush in a crowded train not also be so embarrassing for some gals they choose not to ride, hence the creation of this train car everyone's screaming about?
1 car? There aren't more than enough gals commuting to work to demand more? Or is it just a train car equivalent of gals who get too embarrassed by this?
I mean, heaven knows I've been jammed up against others in crowded areas & thanks to anime, I'm more aware of being brushed up against, but I never feel it's in a groping manner.
My point is, are these actual gropings (Ban's greeting of Hevn is groping. My D-cups being squished against someone in a crowded line is simply being in a crowded place.)

As for Japan being worse than here?
Don't believe it.
How many peeping toms do we have here? When I was in 9th grade I overheard a conversation between 2 boys where one was ridiculing the other because the nice boy took a girl on a date & she fell asleep, but the nice boy did nothing. The other boy said he'd have been doing something-touching, looking, & what a fool the nice boy was.

GWOtaku wrote:
This can't compare to a rape, of course, but it's a persistent problem that certainly doesn't suggest a respect for the fairer sex. That issue aside, however, crime isn't the only measuring stick. There's the troubling fact that Japan has serious demographic problems that won't disappear just because they're ignored. Now there are multiple components to this problem and the expectations of women are likely one of them, but it takes some serious aloofness to convince oneself that a bunch of young men settling for virtual fantasies isn't also a part of the problem there.


IS it an actual groping problem, or the simple fact that Tokyo is apparently a very, very crowded area? That trains CAN be jammed full of too many commuters so that someone with a large personal space feels encroached upon?
We tend to have less of a problem with that in the US. We ride in our own cars. We can usually stand in line a foot out (or more) from the person ahead of us in line.

GWOtaku wrote:

We can probably agree that there's a lot of porn and hentai out there, but that it's not all the same. Let's just remember what's at issue here. The CNN article discusses child pornography a bit, and what started all of this was a report about a game that simulates rape. That's the bottom line. That's what the appropriately-titled Rapelay is. Rape is one of the most reprehensible crimes in existence. It is not a legitimate fantasy.


Yes, it is. It was the stuff of many, many potboiler romances in the past. It took the burden of consent away from the woman. There was a romantic ideal that it WAS romance when we know it's not-it's control.

GWOtaku wrote:
Humanity is not all hentai in the sense that every one of us goes to bed having fantasies about what it'd be like to rape another person. It is not normal and it certainly is not healthy; it is the epitome of disrespect for the opposite sex. It violates the victim's body and will for the gratification of the assaulter. It's a twisted distortion of the purpose of sex.


It's fantasy. I have spoken with so many guys who see it as women having all the power of saying "no", denying them sex when they want it. How could one say any off those guys may not fantasize of forcing that girlfriend to have sex? As long as it stays in the guy's head, where's the harm?

The world is not rated G. It's not rated PG. I'd say it's mostly R & sometimes it is X (& not just for sex. I'd say war is X for violence)

GWOtaku wrote:
It is not wrong some of the time, it is wrong all of the time. Even Takeshi Nogami doesn't dispute that since he considers it a good thing such a heinous crime is relatively uncommon in his country.


Remember "War Games"? The computer played Global Thermonuclear War until it figured out it was a no win situation?
So if a guy (or gal to be fair) can THINK about raping/killing/maiming someone & never ever do it in real life, how is it wrong? I'd gamble most anyone who has suffered a rape or lost a loved one to a violent crime would have loved it if the criminal had kept the crime just a fantasy locked away in the furthest part of the criminal's mind.
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:07 pm Reply with quote
CCSYueh wrote:
The world is not rated G. It's not rated PG. I'd say it's mostly R & sometimes it is X (& not just for sex. I'd say war is X for violence)
Yes indeed the world is rated X, but what scares me the most are people who think the purpose of ratings is to relegate and limit the rating level Real Life is allowed to be thrown at them.
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CCSYueh



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:35 pm Reply with quote
That was what those of us where were against the records ratings in the 80's were saying.
Al Gore asked Dee Snyder if it was reasonable to expect a parent to listen to every record in their child's collection & Snyder's reply was "Being a parent isn't a reasonable thing." Most of us feared it would be a short-cut than many parents wouldn't actually take the time to know WHY the rating was placed on the object.
I took my daughter to her first R-rated movie when she was 8. I was fully aware of the type of movie it was (Halloween H2O actually) and was comfortable with that. I discussed the movie with her ahead of time & told her we could leave at any point if it was too much, but I knew the Halloween series is more suspense & violence than sex like the Friday 13th series or Freddy Krugar. She wasn't allowed to see some PG-13. When we went to 300, she was upset there was a child of 10 in the audience, but I pointed out if the child's parents were ok with it, it was ok for the child to see it just as she did upon my discression.
This is why I say my morals are not the same as the next person's. I believe the parent has the job to research the subject & make the decision without relying on some stupid review in the newspaper that says the movie has mild swears, nudity, whatever. Know what your children are into. I never worried about my daughter in the net because by the time I allowed her on (15 or so-more because she had a cheap computer prior to that), I trusted her judgement not to do risky things like agreeing to meet with people she met over the internet.
If you've brought your child up correctly, they won't want to download rapelay. I tell my clients their children will live by what they do, not what they teach. I'm used to my clients lying to me, but that's exactly what they'll be teaching their children (to lie) if they aren't careful.
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GWOtaku



Joined: 19 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:51 pm Reply with quote
CCSYueh wrote:

Are you a chick?


Nope. Just a guy in his 20s over here.

Quote:
As a gal who's gone from shy in my youth to being a tad more vocal by my 30's, I wonder if those train cars aren't just a nod to those shy shrinking violets who are portrayed as fairly common in Japan.

Quote:
IS it an actual groping problem, or the simple fact that Tokyo is apparently a very, very crowded area? That trains CAN be jammed full of too many commuters so that someone with a large personal space feels encroached upon?


Eh, I think that's a stretch. To an extent the crowding of the train system has to be a part of it, but in practice the groping issue is treated seriously. Here's some assorted links about it here, here, here, here, and here.

Quote:
Yes, it is. It was the stuff of many, many potboiler romances in the past. It took the burden of consent away from the woman. There was a romantic ideal that it WAS romance when we know it's not-it's control.


I hate to nitpick, but all this really says is that the fantasy exists/has existed. Clearly so, but that point doesn't address whether it's legitimate or not. But the next quote does, so...

Quote:
As long as it stays in the guy's head, where's the harm? So if a guy (or gal to be fair) can THINK about raping/killing/maiming someone & never ever do it in real life, how is it wrong?


There's a good point in here insofar as there's a huge difference between being tempted by sin and actually committing it. However, is there really a 0% danger of being desensitized to the act if you're acting it out in a video game, even a little bit? I actually agree that rational adults can tell fantasy from reality. At the same time though, aren't we all molded by what we put into our minds in the first place, at least to some degree? And if there's a market for a game like Rapelay, what does that fact imply about that market and the way it thinks about women? How might the game change or exacerbate that way of thinking, even assuming that most of its players will never even consider rape? In addition, if we could ignore external stimuli simply by the force of our will, there wouldn't be a successful advertising business to speak of. Am I wrong? Is there something I'm missing here? Those questions aren't just rhetorical, by the way.

Again, this isn't necessarily a justification for censorship. But it does mean that the CNN report, in my view, has a point that Takeshi Nogami basically refused to acknowledge, let alone debate.

Quote:
I'd gamble most anyone who has suffered a rape or lost a loved one to a violent crime would have loved it if the criminal had kept the crime just a fantasy locked away in the furthest part of the criminal's mind.


That sounds great, but is that actually the case? Are most players of these games really rapists in waiting that would be committing crimes without the game? I daresay most defenders of the game would say that they wouldn't consider it. Can this really be proven one way or the other?


Last edited by GWOtaku on Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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keikanki



Joined: 25 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:03 pm Reply with quote
GWOtaku wrote:
If you're trying to get me to say that some specific methods of consensual sex are okay whereas others aren't, I'm not going to play that kind of silly semantic game.


I don't think semantic means what you think it means, GWOtaku.

The "specific methods" you mention are central to this discussion, and far from playing games, I'm asking you directly to explain the reasoning behind them to all of us. That's the topic we're discussing here. The impetus of all of this is that actual governments are being lobbied to place actual limits on the sale and possession of this stuff. Defining what specifically should be allowed and what specifically should be forbidden is a foundational and essential part of that process, that as you acknowledge yourself can make or break the passage of any legislation under consideration.

If your definition of "legitimate" and "illegitimate" are snap judgments of your own visceral moral compass, then to be honest, your ideas on the subject are only insulated personal opinion and are too small to participate in a discussion of how to regulate an industry and/or artform.

If you believe your judgments are better informed than that, then by all means please, give a direct question a direct answer and explain the rationale behind it.
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GWOtaku



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:12 pm Reply with quote
keikanki wrote:

If your definition of "legitimate" and "illegitimate" are snap judgments of your own visceral moral compass, then to be honest, your ideas on the subject are only insulated personal opinion and are too small to participate in a discussion of how to regulate an industry and/or artform.


I don't think they are, though. I'll try to answer as well as I can...I'm trying to be clear that I'm limiting the focus of my attack very specifically to rape and, on top of that, to the apparent rape of minors when it comes to Rapelay. As I noted earlier, that's something that most civilized cultures on this planet condemn. If legislation against that were proposed that was very specific, it would probably prove exceedingly difficult to oppose.
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bolfotha



Joined: 04 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:26 pm Reply with quote
GWOtaku wrote:

I think I've addressed this adequately. If one believes that rape is a morally reprehensible crime of the first degree, then it's difficult for me to imagine how one could ever conclude that fantasizing about doing it or acting it out in a game is supposed to be passable.


The same reason why other games such as hit man, mortal kombat, and mafia are "passable" despite the acts simulated in the game being morally reprehensible in real life.

And as said before, fantasizing about rape is not so strange for both genders.
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keikanki



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:37 pm Reply with quote
GWOtaku wrote:
If legislation against that were proposed that was very specific, it would probably prove exceedingly difficult to oppose.


Okay? That's it? You believe that this:

Quote:
GWO 321 Digital Assault Fornication Taboo Act

Video games depicting rape and, on top of that, apparent rape of minors are forbidden to exist in any form within my realm of authority.

-Signed into law 04/05/2010 by GWOtaku


Covers all the bases and would be lauded with near unanimous approval?

And you think I'm playing games with you?

You need a serious reality check. You honestly don't seem to have invested very much time thinking seriously about the free speech and artistic freedom issues knotted deep into the weave of this story and the potential impact regulation could have on people outside of your own skin.


Last edited by keikanki on Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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GWOtaku



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:39 pm Reply with quote
Ideally, I'd like something similar to U.S. law minus the loopholes that create Chris Handley cases. This is not unreasonable. Rapelay would not pass the Miller Test in the United States. Not Japan either, incidentally, including the MT's third condition for "serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value." (aka the SLAPS test)

Edit: U.S. child porn law is here.

But hey, if you'd like to argue that Rapelay has "artistic value", by all means attempt it....


Last edited by GWOtaku on Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:31 pm; edited 5 times in total
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bolfotha



Joined: 04 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 3:46 pm Reply with quote
Why not?

Worse things have passed
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Hon'ya-chan



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:01 pm Reply with quote
bolfotha wrote:
And a considerable market exist because adults of both gender eventually do have what you call unhealthy sexual fantasies like bondage/BDSM fantasies, homoerotic fantasies, sexual fantasies involving underage people (remember Britney Spears when she was younger) and yes, even rape.


Excuse me, but being Homosexual is not an "unhealthy sexual fantasy." Just because you spoiler[don't like two men porking each other with their penises or two women "scissoring"] doesn't equate to it being deviant behavior.
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bolfotha



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:15 pm Reply with quote
Sorry.. let me rephrase that to

both gender eventually do have what some conservative minded communities call "unhealthy sexual fantasies"

No offense, intended.
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not



Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:41 pm Reply with quote
Hello,

So you know where I am coming from, let me say that I am a nineteen year old Roman Catholic middle-class Caucasian male currently studying history and politcal science at a four-year state college. Politically, you may best describe me as a moderate of sorts.

Not all cartoons are anime and not all anime is hentai. I have watched cartoons. I have watched anime. I have watched hentai.

It seems as if most everyone is riled up about the way women are treated in Japan and the U.S. and their differences/similarities. This seems to be the main root of everyone's angst and how this issue, to some, directly correlates with an H-game who's main premise is to advance the plot through various situations where they rape women and some that are minors aswell. Does this include customizable content/situations that the user can manipulate? I can't say for sure as I have not played the game.

So my question is, why should you care?

A news corporation, in the opinion of some on here, a dying one, decided re-post an old story in hopes to nab some new viewers with their gimmick and prolong their lengthy death.
No need to over-examine the situation as people often do, it is what it is sometimes.


On Mr. Takeshi Nogami's letter,

Obviously a well thought out defense of his culture and way of life.
People cited his letter's main flaw as being the citation of the Bible. As pointed out, it was an attempt to gain sympathy out of the letter's target audience, whom mainly is Christian.
There is also the fact the citation explained his entire argument, when over-examined of course, what makes you better than him?

Honestly, I can not think of anything else that needs to be said.
But then again, I am just a white moderate whose generation has been struck with casual apathy towards most everything not involving themselves.
But that's just me.
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Ojamajo LimePie



Joined: 09 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:19 pm Reply with quote
not wrote:
This seems to be the main root of everyone's angst and how this issue, to some, directly correlates with an H-game who's main premise is to advance the plot through various situations where they rape women and some that are minors aswell. Does this include customizable content/situations that the user can manipulate? I can't say for sure as I have not played the game.


I know that the characters are set and can't be modified, and that at least the first few encounters and the ending (the rapist's death) can't be changed. Not sure of any more, since I haven't played it either.
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