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This Week in Anime - Middle Earth, Circa 1978


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residentgrigo



Joined: 23 Dec 2007
Posts: 2609
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2024 10:26 am Reply with quote
The film is a lot of things but I could see how a 133-minute adaptation in this manner of just FotR could have worked but the film also adapts TTT. Well, it tries. The final third devoted to the second book is a trainwreck. The film has the same issue as productions that de-evolve gradually into cliff notes. Xenogears Disc 2 or Game of Thrones S7-8 are examples. Do what you can right and if you finish on a cliffhanger then so be it. The Expanse might remain forever incomplete as an adaptation but it stayed a coherent production till the end.

The Galadriel scene is a masterpiece. One of the few bits that surpassed Jackson but no one surpassed Tolkien. This is the source material for Jackson´s Ringwraith scene, well it´s complicated:
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mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
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Location: Katy, Texas, USA
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2024 10:39 am Reply with quote
Ah yes, I was hoping ANN would be talking about the 2 (well 3, the Ralph Bakshi's 1978 animated adaptation of Lord of the Rings is not Japanese animation, so it doesn't count) previous animated adaptation of LOTR that was animated by Topcraft. Because given that LOTR: War of the Rohirrim is an anime officially, this has led to some debate if the 2 Rankin Bass/Topcraft animated adaptation of the Hobbit and Return of the King should be re-classify as anime because of Topcraft studio and the Japanese animators that worked on The Hobbit and The Return of the King TV special would later worked on Nausicaa for Hayao Miyazaki. The same animators at Topcraft that worked on Rankin-Bass and Nausicaa would later worked at Studio Ghibli and that's where anime history goes and evolve. Hence the debate question: Does Topcraft work on Rankin-Bass should be classify as anime? Does this applied to the 2 previous LOTR adaptation that Rankin-Bass/Topcraft worked on?

So hence the debate: Because of Topcraft involvement in Rankin-Bass, and Studio Ghibli, does that mean that any of Topcraft work with Rankin-Bass be re-classify as anime. Does this applied to The Last Unicorn, and The Flight of Dragon? I mean I know that The Stingiest Man in Town (a Rankin-Bass/Topcraft animated special) has been re-classified as anime, so can that be applied to The Last Unicorn, The Flight of Dragons, and also the 2 previous LOTR special that Rankin-Bass/Topcraft worked on. I mean we know that Rankin-Bass has worked with well-known Japanese studios (Mike Toole has talked about this in the past) and several of those Rankin-Bass works have been classified or re-classfied into anime categories because of the studio that worked with Rankin-Bass.

So the LOTR: War of the Rohirrim film has now re-awakened the debate about how many Rankin-Bass's works should now be categorized or re-classify as anime. This would applied to the 2 LOTR animated TV special that Topcraft worked on.


Last edited by mdo7 on Wed Dec 11, 2024 8:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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tintor2



Joined: 11 Aug 2010
Posts: 2156
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2024 10:57 am Reply with quote
I think the only 1978 anime I watched is the Gundam tv series by Tomino. Not sure when Ashita no Joe premiered
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Beatdigga



Joined: 26 Oct 2003
Posts: 4623
Location: New York
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2024 12:07 pm Reply with quote
Bakshi is not someone I will speak ill of, but the choices made for this film were simply not up to the monumental task of adapting Lord of the Rings. Trying to cram The Two Towers into the last third resulted in a complete mess, the rotoscoping looks silly at very inopportune moments, and the result was something ultimately disjointed. Which is weird because it does some things very well, it’s just that the whole was decidedly less than the sum of its parts.

That said, it’s an admirable effort, and while I would watch the Peter Jackson version 9 times out of 10 given the choice, I will always admire an ambitious screw-up vs a competent cash grab. Story of Bakshi’s career, lots of great ideas, weird ideas, but always getting short changed by the executives. Remember Cool World?


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Key
Moderator


Joined: 03 Nov 2003
Posts: 18480
Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley)
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2024 12:10 pm Reply with quote
I think I may still have this 1978 version tucked away on VHS somewhere, and I'm absolutely certain I've seen it (albeit not in decades).
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VirgilTB4
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Joined: 04 Jan 2018
Posts: 13
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2024 2:17 pm Reply with quote
I'm old enough do have seen this in its original release in theaters and prior to the edits that were done to reduce the run time, mostly rotoscoped scenes of marching. And yes everyone was definitely irritated to have not been told in advance that this was only part of the story.
I also saw Bakshi's prior film that was sort of a trial run up for this type of fantasy film, Wizards. released the year before. It's probably the more successful of the 2, if for no other reason than its a complete story.
And I believe that the Rankin/Bass films are definitely anime, in the same way a film like The Red Turtle is, as a cross-cultural work.
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trilaan



Joined: 17 Jan 2009
Posts: 1082
Location: Texas
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2024 2:18 pm Reply with quote
mdo7 wrote:
Because given that LOTR: War of the Rohirrim is an anime officially, this has led to some debate if the 2 Rankin Bass/Topcraft animated adaptation of the Hobbit and Return of the King should be re-classify as anime because of Topcraft studio and the Japanese animators that worked on The Hobbit and The Return of the King TV special would later worked on Nausicaa for Hayao Miyazaki. The same animators at Topcraft that worked on Rankin-Bass and Nausicaa would later worked at Studio Ghibli and that's where anime history goes and evolve. Hence the debate question: Does Topcraft work on Rankin-Bass should be classify as anime? Does this applied to the 2 previous LOTR adaptation that Rankin-Bass/Topcraft worked on?



I have massive childhood nostalgia for the Rankin-Bass Hobbit and The Return of the King. I would watch a VHS recording of a Return of the King TV broadcast all the time. I loved it so much when my family went to a particular restaurant that had a bowl of plastic rings for kids my dad would pick one out for me that he called a "Mister Frodo ring". Such fond memories. I liked The Hobbit less but still watched it a ton, can sing all the songs, and think Smaug has the best sounding voice of any dragon ever(sorry Sean Connery).

With that out of the way I sure don't think the fact that a non-Japanese series utilizing a particular anime studio for its animation should qualify it as anime. If we did that we would have to re-classify ThunderCats(animated by Japan's Pacific Animation Corporation) as anime with the rest(or much) of the Rankin-Bass oeuvre, as well as a ton of other shows like Dungeons and Dragons(Toei) and Inspector Gadget(TMS).

If it's not conceived of and produced fully under the direction and control of a Japanese studio, then maybe it's just a production that loves the anime "style" or it's just time saving outsourcing.


BTW, on YouTube an Honest Trailer for the Rankin-Bass Hobbit just dropped. What a coincidence.
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mdo7



Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 6424
Location: Katy, Texas, USA
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2024 3:03 pm Reply with quote
trilaan wrote:

With that out of the way I sure don't think the fact that a non-Japanese series utilizing a particular anime studio for its animation should qualify it as anime. If we did that we would have to re-classify ThunderCats(animated by Japan's Pacific Animation Corporation) as anime with the rest(or much) of the Rankin-Bass oeuvre, as well as a ton of other shows like Dungeons and Dragons(Toei) and Inspector Gadget(TMS).


About that, I don't want to derail the topic, so I'm going to take my conversation with you via PM. Oh and one more note: Topcraft did the 1st season of Thundercats prior to the formation of PAC, so in my eyes and my definition, Thundercats could be classify as anime. I'll explain the rest via private message.
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MarshalBanana



Joined: 31 Aug 2014
Posts: 5518
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2024 5:29 pm Reply with quote
I wish the Bakshi version, had also cast John Huston as Gandolf. That was perfect casting.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4815
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2024 8:57 pm Reply with quote
Heh, perfect timing. This aired the other day on Cartoon Network of all places, and a friend of mine clued me in soon enough to catch most of it. I'd seen the Rankin/Bass Hobbit ages ago, but never Bakshi's film (or the R/B Return of the King). I'd only seen screenshots of it before, but viewing it all in motion was...um, something. I can appreciate what Bakshi was going for with most of it, but even in the best of cases I find rotoscoping to be somewhat unsettling, and as the column noted, the clearly live-action-with-a-development-filter footage stuck out like a sore thumb, especially when characters shifted between the two styles from one shot to anither. Even the fully-animated bits frequently looked strange; one moment that stuck out to me was when Bilbo tried to grab the Ring from Frodo in Rivendell and proceeded to have what I can only describe as a full-body seizure. And dear lord, that Balrog...apparently Bakshi eschewed the long-running nerd argument over its appearance with the "oops, all wings!" approach. Laughing That's to say nothing of random Viking Boromir and...whatever was going on with Aragorn (pants optional).

What really got me were those backgrounds, though. The column called them out for looking like they're straight off a period metal album, and I agree with that, but I had no idea what most of them were supposed to be. Moria looked more like Jim Henson's Laybrinth than anything else. I've been living and breathing Tolkien's works since middle school, and one of his greatest gifts was his ability to create brilliant detailed descriptions of the landscapes and structures he imagined. But if you sat me down and put those backgrounds in front of me without any context, I wouldn't have guessed they were supposed to be from Middle-earth in a hundred years. I don't think Bakshi even attempted to get the look right. Laughing

Having said that, there were some moments that pleasantly surprised me. Boromir's confrontation with Frodo and subsequent death scene were very well done. I enjoyed a lot of Frodo's interactions with Sam; in a way I think the former's personality hewed a bit closer to his book portrayal than Elijah Wood's did. As the column mentioned, the scene at Galadriel's mirror was a very different direction than Jackson went, but I thought it worked well. And Gollum was...not what I was expecting, but he still worked somehow? Overall it was mostly just fun seeing these characters and situations I'm so familiar with interpreted in such a different way.
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GATSU



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 15585
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2024 10:13 pm Reply with quote
Honest trailer for the Rankin Bass Hobbit. https://youtu.be/8b0Aui7nHw0?si=0VLxU2YWR43v6e_2
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Tenchi



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 4555
Location: Ottawa... now I'm an ex-Anglo Montrealer.
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2024 11:25 pm Reply with quote
I don't think I've seen the Ralph Bakshi Lord of the Rings movie since renting it once or twice as a kid in the 1980s but I still mentally conflate Bakshi's Gandalf with the wizardly-looking Bridgekeeper from the 1970s Sesame Street animated shorts.
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Piglet the Grate



Joined: 25 May 2021
Posts: 776
Location: North America
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2024 11:35 pm Reply with quote
TWIA - Lucas DeRuyter wrote:
As I'm sure Tolkien intended with his generations-spanning Jesus allegory, that was mostly just an excuse for him to come up with a bunch of fictional languages and lore to justify them.


I can only hope that Lucas DeRuyter is making an inside joke here, as Tolkien used application and not "conscious" allegory in his stories:

J.R.R. Tolkien in Forward to the Second Edition (1966) wrote:
I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.


J.R.R. Tolkien in Letter 203 wrote:
There is no 'symbolism' or conscious allegory in my story. Allegory of the sort 'five wizards = five senses' is wholly foreign to my way of thinking. There were five wizards and that is just a unique part of history. To ask if the Orcs 'are' Communists is to me as sensible as asking if Communists are Orcs. That there is no allegory does not, of course, say there is no applicability. There always is. And since I have not made the struggle wholly unequivocal: sloth and stupidity among hobbits, pride and [illegible] among Elves, grudge and greed in Dwarf-hearts, and folly and wickedness among the 'Kings of Men', and treachery and power-lust even among the 'Wizards', there is I suppose applicability in my story to present times.


J.R.R. Tolkien in Letter 215 wrote:
I hope 'comment on the world' does not sound too solemn. I have no didactic purpose, and no allegorical intent. (I do not like allegory (properly so called: most readers appear to confuse it with significance or applicability) but that is a matter too long to deal with here.)


As for Tolkien making an allegory of Jesus Christ:

J.R.R. Tolkien in Letter 297 wrote:
The use of éarendel in A-S Christian symbolism as the herald of the rise of the true Sun in Christ is completely alien to my use. The Fall of Man is in the past and off stage; the Redemption of Man in the far future. We are in a time when the One God, Eru, is known to exist by the wise, but is not approachable save by or through the Valar, though He is still remembered in (unspoken) prayer by those of Númenórean descent.


All I will have to say on the following subject:

TWIA - Steve Jones wrote:
Jackson's films win overall on homoeroticism, though. Like, Frodo and Sam have a lot of cute interactions here, but the live-action version fully understands that they're boyfriends and deeply in love.


Archimedes stated that with "a firm place to stand on" and with a long enough lever he could move the Earth. Since I do not have that long of a pole, best to say no more than this is a highly controversial contention and one mostly brought forward in the 21st Century. The reader with a search engine can find plenty of discussion on the matter if interested.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4815
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2024 2:33 am Reply with quote
ATastySub wrote:
You might find that many people are blind, willingly or not, to what informs their worldviews. Authors are not an exception to this, nor is their work. Criticism is founded on messages in the text. LoTR as a work is rife with men feeling their feelings outside of the bounds of what we now recognize as more 'traditional' masculinity. They feel. They cry. They are tender to one another in ways that transcends beyond the fragile masculinity that adorns sword and sorcery works abound. Tolkien was good friends with C.S. Lewis, and was at odds with how explicit the Christianity in his stories were while having no problem saying his own work was "a fundamentally religious and Catholic work." His experiences in WW1, his own devout Catholicism, and many many other factors combined into The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. The world is richer for that.

And it doesn't take much reading of the books to see that Sam and Frodo deeply love each other. Like c'mon. That was noticed when it came out. It's a central part of the story! Pretending it's some new reinvention just cause people have more words to describe it (tongue in cheek or not) is deeply unserious.

Tolkien never denied that there was much of himself in what he wrote. As you said, he himself noted that The Lord of the Rings was a "fundamentally religious and Catholic work," right down to its creation mythos at the hands of one true God. (Tolkien viewed the act of writing his mythos as a "sub-creation" of the Creator he believed in.) There are many other narrative elements whose origins are easy to see. For instance, the blasted and desolate wastelands outside of Mordor are a clear echo of the horrific Somme where Tolkien served in World War I. Likewise, in a letter Tolkien stated that he identified the most with the character of Faramir, whose most famous line is all the more poignant as a result: “I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”

However, there is a massive chasm between "there are inextricable parts of an author in a work" and "this work is a straight allegory for X and Y." As has been noted, Tolkien actively despised allegory and explicitly rejected that reading of his motives (I'd argue for good reason, because any interpretation as such falls apart pretty quickly). You noted that Tolkien's good friend C.S. Lewis frequently used explicit allegory in his works, perhaps most famously in the character of Aslan as a direct substitution for Jesus in The Chronicles of Narnia. Tolkien hated that aspect of Lewis' writing, and all but told him as much to his face. There aren't any comparable elements in Tolkien's writing. The idea of a "Jesus allegory" in particular is right out, as in at least one letter Tolkien explicitly rejected the idea that Iluvatar had any sort of physical incarnation in the world, and that was not a subject he would have treated lightly. (There's a rather fascinating passage among Tolkien's formerly-unpublished works that takes the form of a conversation between an elf and a human in the First Age; it deals with the fundamental nature of elves and men and their eventual fates, and Tolkien's commentary on it touches on the idea of incarnation.)

And yes, Frodo and Sam undeniably love each other very much and share a deep emotional bond. But I don't think there's any intention that this love is meant to be viewed as romantic in nature. To go back to the Greek terms Tolkien no doubt would have been familiar with, it would fall under philia (or even agape), not eros. It's a sort of platonic relationship that comes up very rarely (if ever) in modern fiction, compounded by the fact that Sam was Frodo's manservant, a concept that doesn't really exist anymore. (Our closest comparison would probably be the bond that forms between fellow soldiers who gone through inexplicable horrors together.) I'm certainly not going to deny anyone's right to read that subtext into their relationship, but I also think saying "this is absolutely how they are" does a disservice to the text.
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ANN Forum Mod / Admin



Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 6
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2024 8:28 am Reply with quote
Moderator's Note: I am very, very sorry, but the following post was accidentally deleted and cannot be restored. Fortunately I was able to retrieve the text of the post:

ATastySub wrote:
Piglet the Grate wrote:
TWIA - Lucas DeRuyter wrote:
As I'm sure Tolkien intended with his generations-spanning Jesus allegory, that was mostly just an excuse for him to come up with a bunch of fictional languages and lore to justify them.


I can only hope that Lucas DeRuyter is making an inside joke here, as Tolkien used application and not "conscious" allegory in his stories:

J.R.R. Tolkien in Forward to the Second Edition (1966) wrote:
I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.


J.R.R. Tolkien in Letter 203 wrote:
There is no 'symbolism' or conscious allegory in my story. Allegory of the sort 'five wizards = five senses' is wholly foreign to my way of thinking. There were five wizards and that is just a unique part of history. To ask if the Orcs 'are' Communists is to me as sensible as asking if Communists are Orcs. That there is no allegory does not, of course, say there is no applicability. There always is. And since I have not made the struggle wholly unequivocal: sloth and stupidity among hobbits, pride and [illegible] among Elves, grudge and greed in Dwarf-hearts, and folly and wickedness among the 'Kings of Men', and treachery and power-lust even among the 'Wizards', there is I suppose applicability in my story to present times.


J.R.R. Tolkien in Letter 215 wrote:
I hope 'comment on the world' does not sound too solemn. I have no didactic purpose, and no allegorical intent. (I do not like allegory (properly so called: most readers appear to confuse it with significance or applicability) but that is a matter too long to deal with here.)


As for Tolkien making an allegory of Jesus Christ:

J.R.R. Tolkien in Letter 297 wrote:
The use of éarendel in A-S Christian symbolism as the herald of the rise of the true Sun in Christ is completely alien to my use. The Fall of Man is in the past and off stage; the Redemption of Man in the far future. We are in a time when the One God, Eru, is known to exist by the wise, but is not approachable save by or through the Valar, though He is still remembered in (unspoken) prayer by those of Númenórean descent.


All I will have to say on the following subject:

TWIA - Steve Jones wrote:
Jackson's films win overall on homoeroticism, though. Like, Frodo and Sam have a lot of cute interactions here, but the live-action version fully understands that they're boyfriends and deeply in love.


Archimedes stated that with "a firm place to stand on" and with a long enough lever he could move the Earth. Since I do not have that long of a pole, best to say no more than this is a highly controversial contention and one mostly brought forward in the 21st Century. The reader with a search engine can find plenty of discussion on the matter if interested.


You might find that many people are blind, willingly or not, to what informs their worldviews. Authors are not an exception to this, nor is their work. Criticism is founded on messages in the text. LoTR as a work is rife with men feeling their feelings outside of the bounds of what we now recognize as more 'traditional' masculinity. They feel. They cry. They are tender to one another in ways that transcends beyond the fragile masculinity that adorns sword and sorcery works abound. Tolkien was good friends with C.S. Lewis, and was at odds with how explicit the Christianity in his stories were while having no problem saying his own work was "a fundamentally religious and Catholic work." His experiences in WW1, his own devout Catholicism, and many many other factors combined into The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. The world is richer for that.

And it doesn't take much reading of the books to see that Sam and Frodo deeply love each other. Like c'mon. That was noticed when it came out. It's a central part of the story! Pretending it's some new reinvention just cause people have more words to describe it (tongue in cheek or not) is deeply unserious.


My most sincere apologies to ATastySub for the error. It was entirely my fault. --F
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