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DuskyPredator



Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 15573
Location: Brisbane, Australia
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:48 am Reply with quote
I do think Goblin Slayer was helped a little by the fact it had strong female characters. Despite its controversial use of rape, it never really got worse after the first episode, and even if not every woman was an amazon and the titular character as the hero was male, female characters were just as likely to be strong as their male counter parts and members of authority. Maybe even a bit more in their favour. In general the show had to keep a careful balance of strength and vulnerability to every character, and in general I think it did a pretty good job. Although still a little lopsided in women used as examples of things going horrible. Don't know if they were afraid how it would work with the entirely masculine goblins that get graphically killed.

Maybe I am wrong though.
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all-tsun-and-no-dere
ANN Reviewer


Joined: 06 Jul 2015
Posts: 650
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:19 pm Reply with quote
鏡 wrote:
Did you end up writing an article on DITF inspired by my posts?


Ha! https://www.animefeminist.com/discourse-childbirth-and-politics-in-darling-in-the-franxx/

It was inspired by the general discourse around Darling in the Franxx, but yes, you calling gender roles and nuclear family structures "fundamentally apolitical" was what made me say to myself, "You know what, people are so ignorant on this issue that it really does deserve a full article."
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Debus



Joined: 05 Apr 2018
Posts: 12
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:44 am Reply with quote
DuskyPredator wrote:
I do think Goblin Slayer was helped a little by the fact it had strong female characters. Despite its controversial use of rape, it never really got worse after the first episode, and even if not every woman was an amazon and the titular character as the hero was male, female characters were just as likely to be strong as their male counter parts and members of authority.
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.
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On the adventurer side, it doesn't seem like there is any sexism at all. Some of the strongest characters are female.

For example, the group of heroes that is defeating the "Demon Lord" are entirely made up of girls. And there are plenty of strong physical women, as well as the magic using ones.

Yes, there is this quasi-harem thing going on with the Goblin Slayer, but it's pretty low key.
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hugonun



Joined: 15 Oct 2018
Posts: 19
Location: Luxembourg
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:25 pm Reply with quote
What do you think about Shield Hero?
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all-tsun-and-no-dere
ANN Reviewer


Joined: 06 Jul 2015
Posts: 650
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:49 am Reply with quote
hugonun wrote:
What do you think about Shield Hero?


I watched the first episode. I wasn't a fan, and when I looked up the plot on Wikipedia, there wasn't really anything that made me want to give it a second chance. I'm not going to enjoy a story predicated on a false rape accusation where the main character owns slaves. It all makes me deeply uncomfortable, and not in the "interesting and challenging" way. The extreme hostility we've received for choosing not to review it and its fans saying that Monica Rial is the same person as Myne have also made it clear to me that I don't want anything to do with this show or its fanbase.

(Yes I know a lot of perfectly decent people watch it, but it undeniably gets a certain sort of person riled up.)

Twelve Kingdoms has all the aspects of the story I found potentially interesting - the protagonist alone in a hostile fantasy world, losing their ability to trust after being repeatedly betrayed and driven to do terrible things just to survive - without all the icky stuff.

I've heard all the arguments about why I'm wrong and none of them have done anything to change my mind, so please respect your own time and mine and don't even try.
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hugonun



Joined: 15 Oct 2018
Posts: 19
Location: Luxembourg
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:47 am Reply with quote
Thanks for replying, I asked it to see if you would mention this

all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:
I'm not going to enjoy a story predicated on a false rape accusation


I guess we can both agree that there are true and false rape accusations, and it's great to have a website mentioning anime that don't sexualize women, but as an anime feminist (and leaving the other parts of the anime aside), why don't you like anime that has a false rape accusation? Will a feminist dislike every anime with false rape accusations, and will anime with true rape accusations be fine, no matter what gender?

As a "not-a-feminist", it sounds to me that animefeminists don't believe in false rape accusations. Quoting from the website:

Quote:
Fictional portrayals of women as liars who accuse innocent men further a dangerous false narrative. False accusations of rape are exceedingly rare in real life. Research suggests the rate of false reporting is between two and 10 percent, and that number is likely inflated. source


In my opinion, believing in all accusations completely is a more dangerous ideology and a red flag. While it's almost impossible to tell the percentage of it or proving if someone's telling the truth, I wouldn't null the possibility since that could increase the amount of false reports and oversimplifying abuse and blackmailing. While both of us share the same thought that rape/groping/etc is bad, should be punished and is an issue, we divide when it comes to "guilty until proven" and "not guilty until proven", whereby I prefer that innocent people don't go to jail and hope that uncaught rapists/gropers/etc will get caught the next time. It would be great if you could tell us your personal view on this and if the average anime feminist would think the same as you.

Regarding Twelve Kingdoms, I heard it has a lot of recaps and an unfinished story, but it seems to have a good rating. Is it an anime that you would recommend, or do you think that it's become too outdated or not worth it because of the unfinished story?
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Errinundra
Moderator


Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 6580
Location: Melbourne, Oz
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:27 pm Reply with quote
Warning: this is the anime discussion section of Anime News Network. Please limit discussion to anime topics, not broader social issues. So, discussing the veracity of rape denials or rape accusations, beyond their relevance to specific anime, is inappropriate. By all means, talk about their relevance to Sheild Hero, but anything beyond that may be moderated.
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1875
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:39 pm Reply with quote
all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:
hugonun wrote:
What do you think about Shield Hero?


I watched the first episode. I wasn't a fan, and when I looked up the plot on Wikipedia, there wasn't really anything that made me want to give it a second chance. I'm not going to enjoy a story predicated on a false rape accusation where the main character owns slaves. It all makes me deeply uncomfortable, and not in the "interesting and challenging" way. The extreme hostility we've received for choosing not to review it and its fans saying that Monica Rial is the same person as Myne have also made it clear to me that I don't want anything to do with this show or its fanbase.

(Yes I know a lot of perfectly decent people watch it, but it undeniably gets a certain sort of person riled up.)

Twelve Kingdoms has all the aspects of the story I found potentially interesting - the protagonist alone in a hostile fantasy world, losing their ability to trust after being repeatedly betrayed and driven to do terrible things just to survive - without all the icky stuff.

I've heard all the arguments about why I'm wrong and none of them have done anything to change my mind, so please respect your own time and mine and don't even try.


I'm overjoyed to see that you aren't attacking the work or accusing the people who made it of having some sort of agenda. It makes me happy to know that people who find the subject matter uncomfortable are able to leave it at that instead of accusing everyone who enjoys the series of secretly hating women or something.

My question for you is what do you think of Shounen Jump? Are you disappointed that a lot of these anime don't have a female as a central part of the main cast, or if they do, often have them in support roles instead of main fighters? I was always bothered that Yu Yu Hakusho's females aside from Genkai are all weak and relatively useless.
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all-tsun-and-no-dere
ANN Reviewer


Joined: 06 Jul 2015
Posts: 650
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:28 pm Reply with quote
hugonun wrote:
Thanks for replying, I asked it to see if you would mention this

all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:
I'm not going to enjoy a story predicated on a false rape accusation


I guess we can both agree that there are true and false rape accusations, and it's great to have a website mentioning anime that don't sexualize women, but as an anime feminist (and leaving the other parts of the anime aside), why don't you like anime that has a false rape accusation? Will a feminist dislike every anime with false rape accusations, and will anime with true rape accusations be fine, no matter what gender?


Feminists aren't a hivemind and have a wide variety of opinions. I can only represent myself. I wont say, "No, I'll never ever ever like an anime that has a false rape accusation," because that's just begging for one that I do like to come along. And there's a lot of stories where the accusations are true that I don't like!

I don't really want to go in-depth about the specifics of Shield Hero because that would involve basically writing a full-length article and I don't do that unless I'm getting paid. However, I do take commissions, so if you want to hear my detailed thoughts message me for my rates.

(Note to mods: this is tongue-in-cheek and not soliciting)

Quote:
As a "not-a-feminist", it sounds to me that animefeminists don't believe in false rape accusations. Quoting from the website:

Quote:
Fictional portrayals of women as liars who accuse innocent men further a dangerous false narrative. False accusations of rape are exceedingly rare in real life. Research suggests the rate of false reporting is between two and 10 percent, and that number is likely inflated. source


False accusations happen, they're just rare. The article has a link to the source if you want to read more about it. If you want to discuss this further you can DM me, since Errinundra has set very clear (and understandable) boundaries here.

Quote:
Regarding Twelve Kingdoms, I heard it has a lot of recaps and an unfinished story, but it seems to have a good rating. Is it an anime that you would recommend, or do you think that it's become too outdated or not worth it because of the unfinished story?


I would absolutely, 100% recommend it without hesitation. The animation does look dated - it was animated digitally at a lower resolution than the average laptop monitor these days - but the storytelling is still rock solid. The show is made up of multiple story arcs and the first one, which has the most parallels to Shield Hero, reaches a satisfying conclusion. To be honest, I'd recommend checking out the light novels over the anime if possible; in the light novels, Yoko is totally alone, while in the anime, two other people were brought over with her. However, the anime is legally available while the Tokyopop translations of the novels are long out of print.

Quote:
I'm overjoyed to see that you aren't attacking the work or accusing the people who made it of having some sort of agenda. It makes me happy to know that people who find the subject matter uncomfortable are able to leave it at that instead of accusing everyone who enjoys the series of secretly hating women or something.


For what it's worth, I wrote the Anime Feminist non-review of Shield Hero (although making it into a list of nonprofits to donate to was a team decision). So yeah, I've been pretty harshly critical of it in the past and I stand by what I said. A story's worldview isn't the same as it having an agenda; "agenda" implies specific intent while every story has a worldview. I don't give a good goddamn what other people watch as long as they're not jerks about it.

Unfortunately, a lot of people are jerks about Shield Hero. Like, this is the first time we ever had to close comments down because its fans were so vitriolic. It's part of why I'm so critical of its worldview; because it attracts and validates people who have a similar worldview, and a lot of those people's behavior is absolutely vile and hateful on a level I've never seen before.

By the way, this isn't answering a specific question but something I feel is relevant to the discussion in general. A lot of people read feminist writing in a shrill, hysterical tone, but that's an incorrect assumption. At least for my criticisms, an exhausted, vaguely frustrated tone or a measured, explanatory "teacher voice" would be closer to how I'm actually thinking of it.

Quote:
My question for you is what do you think of Shounen Jump? Are you disappointed that a lot of these anime don't have a female as a central part of the main cast, or if they do, often have them in support roles instead of main fighters? I was always bothered that Yu Yu Hakusho's females aside from Genkai are all weak and relatively useless.


Yeah... It's definitely an issue. There are a lot of Shonen Jump series I love, but they almost always have the same issues with women. Battle series, designed to run in perpetuity, follow the same few patterns: girls don't exist; girls in support roles only; girls start off in combat roles but get pushed into support roles; or once-prominent female team members get slowly sidelined to the point of secondary characters and fan service vehicles.

I get why Shonen Jump is so popular with audiences of all genders, really I do. The kinds of series it runs can be a lot of fun! But I wish its editors thought more about how it portrays female characters, because it consistently reinforces a lot of gender stereotypes to its highly impressionable audience, with only a few series ever breaking away from them.
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1875
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:05 am Reply with quote
So, a lot of Shounen Jump fall into a trap that TV Tropes likes to call "Men are more equal." Basically, it's where female characters are proficient enough to take down mooks and nameless henchmen, but fail against any named male character. Rurouni Kenshin is the worst example of this that I can think of off the top of my head.

On that note, Hunter x Hunter reaches a compromise that I think feminists would approve of enough while still being for the male demographic. That being that men and women can both be tough and threatening, but the core 4 characters all happen to be boys.

It always bothered me in One Piece that, while Nami and Robin are immensely useful, powerful in their own right, and have tons and tons of stealth and espionage uses that the male members don't, the physically most powerful members of the crew are all men. It kind of weirded me out that in a world where monstrously strong women exist, the Straw Hat Pirates never ended up getting a girl who could smash boulders and toss houses around. Don't wanna throw shade at my favorite anime too much, but does it bother you as a feminist?
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all-tsun-and-no-dere
ANN Reviewer


Joined: 06 Jul 2015
Posts: 650
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:51 pm Reply with quote
louis6578 wrote:

On that note, Hunter x Hunter reaches a compromise that I think feminists would approve of enough while still being for the male demographic. That being that men and women can both be tough and threatening, but the core 4 characters all happen to be boys.


Hunter x Hunter may not fall into that exact trap but it has tons of issues of its own, one of which is that the core team is entirely male. Excluding women is not better than including them but badly.

We have a really great article (I didn't write it, I just love it) about why shonen manga should be more inclusive to non-male readers and characters.

Quote:
It always bothered me in One Piece that, while Nami and Robin are immensely useful, powerful in their own right, and have tons and tons of stealth and espionage uses that the male members don't, the physically most powerful members of the crew are all men. It kind of weirded me out that in a world where monstrously strong women exist, the Straw Hat Pirates never ended up getting a girl who could smash boulders and toss houses around. Don't wanna throw shade at my favorite anime too much, but does it bother you as a feminist?


I stopped reading One Piece not long after the time skip. Oda has a pattern of being disrespectful to women in his commentary, and the sidelining of Robin and Nami and the absolutely ridiculous proportions of his redesigns got to be too much for me.
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Shenl742



Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Posts: 1525
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:58 pm Reply with quote
It ran in Shonen Sunday, but I think Tokine from Kekkaishi is probably the biggest exception I've seen. She's regularly shown to be just as competent and strong as the series main male character, she's given arcs, has inner struggles, isn't obnoxiously sexualized, and most importantly the manga gives her stuff to do. She's given plenty of time in the spotlight so she doesn't just feel like a sidekick (though it would've been nice if she was given just a little more).

The only knocks i can think of is that she does display a bit eye-rolling tsundere tendencies early on, and her power set does kind of lean a bit towards stereotypical "she's the female hero so she's more focused on finesse rather than the raw power her male counterpart". But other than that I just find her existence in this genre so against the grain compared to what we usually get, and it pains me that Kekkaishi isn't more popular.
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all-tsun-and-no-dere
ANN Reviewer


Joined: 06 Jul 2015
Posts: 650
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:20 pm Reply with quote
Shenl742 wrote:
It ran in Shonen Sunday, but I think Tokine from Kekkaishi is probably the biggest exception I've seen. She's regularly shown to be just as competent and strong as the series main male character, she's given arcs, has inner struggles, isn't obnoxiously sexualized, and most importantly the manga gives her stuff to do. She's given plenty of time in the spotlight so she doesn't just feel like a sidekick (though it would've been nice if she was given just a little more).

The only knocks i can think of is that she does display a bit eye-rolling tsundere tendencies early on, and her power set does kind of lean a bit towards stereotypical "she's the female hero so she's more focused on finesse rather than the raw power her male counterpart". But other than that I just find her existence in this genre so against the grain compared to what we usually get, and it pains me that Kekkaishi isn't more popular.


Oh yeah, outside of Shonen Jump you get a much better variety of interesting female characters! Even other publications under the Jump umbrella can be an improvement. I tend to harp more on WSJ because it has the widest circulation and a broad audience, which gives it more cultural sway.

I haven't read Kekkaishi but I imagine it helps that it's written by a woman. In my experience, shonen manga with female writers such as Noragami and Fullmetal Alchemist tend to have much better female characters.
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louis6578



Joined: 31 Jul 2013
Posts: 1875
PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:33 pm Reply with quote
While I agree that One Piece's underuse of Nami and Robin (and Chopper) after the timeskip is frustrating, and that the series after the timeskip still hasn't really reached the heights of beforehand, I don't know if I completely agree with your sentiment about Oda and female characters. True that Hancock falling in love with Luffy as quickly as she did is more than a little insulting, but if you ask me, Robin has the best character arc out of any of the Straw Hats. The only one who comes close is Usopp, and he's really more of a distant second.

I completely agreed with the article you linked though. Most of it was parroting what I've been saying for years. Every time I watch/read Shounen Jump, especially one from pre-2005, I feel a little weird. When I think of them as cool adventures I'd want to go on with a group of my friends, I'm always thinking "I'd love to fight alongside my friends, both male and female, to save the world." Not "I'd like to protect all the girls and get brownie points."

I think the sooner a Shounen Jump author realizes that girls want to be cool heroes too, the better these stories will be. Hell, non-Jump battle manga are even worse. Have you seen Nanatsu no Taizai and Fairy Tail? I'd love to hear your thoughts on Fairy Tail especially.
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El Hermano



Joined: 24 Feb 2019
Posts: 450
Location: Texas
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:00 pm Reply with quote
all-tsun-and-no-dere wrote:
Hunter x Hunter may not fall into that exact trap but it has tons of issues of its own, one of which is that the core team is entirely male. Excluding women is not better than including them but badly.

We have a really great article (I didn't write it, I just love it) about why shonen manga should be more inclusive to non-male readers and characters


<Removed insult. Errinundra.> Yu Yu Hakusho and Hunter x Hunter are popular with women because they focus on almost exclusively male characters, not in spite of it. Ditto for those sports series like Haikyu and Kuroko. Replacing half those casts with women isn't going to attract more women to the series, it'll more than likely turn a lot of the current women reading them off.
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