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we love lain
Joined: 24 Apr 2018
Posts: 145
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:12 am
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" The two characters growing closer together over the course of an adrenaline pumping race not only makes sense but is fulfilling from an audience perspective because, in part, we feel like we've been through a similarly exciting ordeal."
Well I'm glad you understand the concept in theory. That was actually the only thing i was arguing. You had said it was a disingenuous way to get audience members to grow attached to characters and my goal was to argue how that isn't true. You using JP and Sonoshi from redline is actually a very good example of this, which brings me to your point about the movie having established a previous context that made all those adrenaline pumping ordeals endear us as the audience to JP and Sonoshi. You're absolutely right about this: I'm well aware of progressive's problem here which is why i said that the show doesn't do a good job of communicating the sentimental layer necessary to make Ide and Hidomi's relationship hit as hard as it should. Still, because Ide has shown himself to be a likable dude as function of his courageousness and bravado to protect Hidomi, I can at least understand why Hidomi would like him and find him as important to her as much as she does.
"What has Haruko actually done?"
-Sexually charged all the students in her class to figure out which ones had the most potential for N.O. More specifically, she was spending extra time with Ide with the hopes that he could cultivate his power well enough to allow stronger beings to be able to pass through his N.O portal
-Upon realizing how much N.O. Hidomi has been storing up as a result of all her suppressed emotions, Haruko starts getting Ide and Hidomi to interact more often so her N.O channel can open up. The climax in ep 1 convinced Haruko that there might be something going on between Ide and Hidomi. The anticlimaxes of Hidom's N.O fits in ep 2 and 3 are measures by MM to prevent her from being able to tap into the supernatural power effectively (or haphazardly depending on who you're asking) i.e. the enzyme inhibitor, hence why her transformations in ep 2 and 3 were so weird; as if she was being restrained. Keep in mind the headphones have been a way for MM to keep Hidomi in check so that her N.O. doesn't allow her to pull insane beings from the outer edges of the space like our boy Atomsk. We'll be sure to get clarification as to who gave Hidomi the headphones by the final episode (which i hope is an extra long one like the original)
-Haruko tries to instigate Hidomi on her own to get her to "overflow" and after that fails, MM locks the headphones into her skull
-Haruko eats Jinyu and restores her full power/whole being. By the way, your whole complaint about the ep 4 MM robot being useless is also assuaged here. I had suspected this but i wasn't sure so i didn't want to say anything on the manner, but like the armed gunman in the original flcl, the MM robot of ep 4 was dispatched as some sort of activation protocol. In the original, it was the hand grabbing the iron; in this one, it's propping the iron up right as if one is waiting for it to heat up before proceeding to flatten out the wrinkles. This is why you don't put all your eggs in one basket and assume until you have all the info. That being said, one of my gripes with progressive's approach to its storytelling is that it plays its cards so close to its chest, making it difficult for viewers to get a grasp on where the main plot is going..but then again you can also levy that complaint to the original's narrative as well.
-Now that the Iron is up, Haruko is trying to finish digesting Jinyu while waiting for end game (it seems that Jinyu wasn't sitting well in her stomach; either that or it was an allusion to pregnancy and there might have some relevant bearing on the plot going into the finale)
"She's angry at Haruko for sitting on her man and taking Ide away, even though it's not clear that's Haruko's fault. Also her dad left and is likely not coming back. Which we knew, but why should I care? What was he to her? What did he mean to her? How does her father's absence affect her. It makes her hyper insular? Why?"
You can ask similar questions about Naota's brother: he's gone and as a result, Naota feels like he's lost the only reliable adult in his life; he feels like he doesn't hold a candle to his brother; but why does he idolize him so much? Why should I care that Naota doesn't respect the other adults in his life but his brother? Naota doesn't really say much about his brother and what we do get, we hear in passing from other characters in the show like him being great at baseball. With Hidomi's situation, her dad is gone and it affects her because her sad, but it makes her mom sad too. As a matter of fact, it seems that a good chunk of Hidomi's sadness is a consequence of how much her father's disappearance has saddened her mother rather than her own personal feelings (although she does have them). Seeing the lengths her mother goes to be all cheery and shit when in reality she doesn't completely feel that way eats away at Hidomi. As Hidomi said in ep 4; with the headphones, she shuts out her mom's sobbing and crying so that she doesn't have to deal with the reality of that pain all the time. The information is there; the difference between the original and progressive is how they go about communicating their protagonist's angst. We see how Naota behaves around his family, how he responds when his brother is brought up in conversation, how he looks up to Haruko, his desire to "deal" with mamimi and fill the shoes of his brother as her "protector"...the original shows all these different shades of Naota and his interactions with the cast and the situations around him (i.e good writing); and its because of this that we develop a sentimental connection to him as viewers (or that at least it's easier to). With progressive, there's less of a focus on driving that dynamism in Hidomi's interactions with people and so her character doesn't come off as endearing. We know why we should care, the episodes have told us why? but that's part of the problem, it told us. As hallucinogenic progressive likes to be at times, it verbally exposits at moments when it should be showing, which works against the show's storytelling.
"I mean, it's probably hard for the town to forget the big red birb but how does she know that's what Haruko wants?"
We already know why. I guess it was a "blink and you'll miss it" but when Hidomi starts overflowing in ep 4 and releases enough N.O. for Jinyu and Haruko to come out of her. You can say it's sort of a callback to the original when Naota learns about the truth of medical mechanica after being used to activate the plant. As the both of them were escaping from her head, she learned of Haruko's intentions and why she split into Jinyu, and by doing so, she learned of Atomsk and MM, hence why ep 4 ended with her saying that she knows what Haruko wants and refuses to go with her.
"what the flower pot even does"
But we know what the flower pot does; it reverses the flow of N.O; so rather than something traveling through the portal, it can seemingly mimic Atomsk's power in that it can act like a black hole of sorts and pull things in. What you don't know is how immigration bureau plans on using this to combat medical mechanica.
Last edited by we love lain on Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:30 am; edited 5 times in total
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DreamedLint
Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 42
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:14 am
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ninjamitsuki wrote: |
If there's one good thing that could come out of this, however, is that there might finally be a good scale figure of Haruko. The few that were released have... not aged well. |
Lmao. I have the Mamimi doll. They're both so uggo. I want them to just release more of those trash figures.
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we love lain
Joined: 24 Apr 2018
Posts: 145
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:21 am
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penguintruth wrote: | This show has become a collage of fetishes. Not that I'm kink shaming, but it's like a laundry list of people's turn-ons, often paired in obvious, brazen fashion. The last time I saw so much fetishistic content, it was Totally Spies. |
Ahhhh totally spies; my adolescent youth and my burgeoning sexual awakening . Sam is best girl. This is not an argument; this is just fact. Clover is worst girl. This is also not an argument; this is just fact
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DreamedLint
Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 42
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:21 am
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we love lain wrote: |
Well I'm glad you understand the concept in theory. That was actually the only thing i was arguing. You had said it was a disingenuous way to get audience members to grow attached to characters and my goal was to argue how that isn't true. You using JP and Sonoshi from redline is actually a very good example of this, which brings me to your point about the movie having established a previous context that made all those adrenaline pumping ordeals endear us as the audience to JP and Sonoshi. You're absolutely right about this: I'm well aware of progressive's problem here which is why i said that the show doesn't do a good job of communicating the sentimental layer necessary to make Ide and Hidomi's relationship hit as hard as it should. Still, because Ide has shown himself to be a likable dude as function of his courageousness and bravado to protect Hidomi, I can at least understand why Hidomi would like him and find him as important to her as much as she does. |
I think we're mostly on the same page here. The problem is I don't find Ide's bravado endearing or likable. It comes off as petulant and agro especially when aimed at Haruko. His bravado only exists for Hidomi, who I don't care about for the reasons I mentioned.
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-Sexually charged all the students in her class to figure out which ones had the most potential for N.O. More specifically, she was spending extra time with Ide with the hopes that he could cultivate his power well enough to allow stronger beings to be able to pass through his N.O portal
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Sorry, I wasn't super clear with what I was asking. I'm baffled as to what Haruko has done to earn Ide's ire, not what she's done period. Though your example here could point to her offscreen interactions with him being the cause. It's just pretty much ignored after episode 1 though so it's just a theory... a game theo-
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-Upon realizing how much N.O. Hidomi has been storing up as a result of all her suppressed emotions, Haruko starts getting Ide and Hidomi to interact more often so her N.O channel can open up. The climax in ep 1 convinced Haruko that there might be something going on between Ide and Hidomi. The anticlimaxes of Hidom's N.O fits in ep 2 and 3 are measures by MM to prevent her from being able to tap into supernatural power effectively (or haphazardly depending on who you're asking) i.e. the enzyme inhibitor, hence why her transformations in ep 2 and 3 where so weird; as if she was being restrained. Keep in mind the headphones have been a way for MM to keep Hidomi in check so that her N.O. doesn't allow her to pull insane beings from the outer edges of the space like our boy Atomsk. We'll be sure to get clarification as to who gave Hidomi the headphones by the final episode (which i hope is an extra long one like the original)
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I didn't get the sense she was being restrained by the transformations. It seems more like she goes berserk or out of control. A violent doll thingy, a huge brain of assorted junk, and now her half n half form. They do acknowledge the headphones are an MM device but I'm not sure where you're getting her transformations being tied to MM from.
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-Haruko tries to instigate Hidomi on her own to get her to "overflow" and after that fails, MM locks the headphones into her skull
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I could see how this bugs Ide but it's hard to empathize with him when it honestly seems like overflowing would be the best thing to happen to this girl. Just let it out, don't bottle up your emoshuns.
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-Haruko eats Jinyu and restores her full power/whole being. By the way, your whole complaint about the ep 4 MM robot being useless is also assuaged here. I had suspected this but i wasn't sure so i didn't want to say anything on the manner, but like the armed gunman in the original flcl, the MM robot of ep 4 was dispatched as some sort of activation protocol. In the original, it was the hand grabbing the iron; in this one, it's propping the iron up right as if one is waiting for it to heat up before proceeding to flatten out the wrinkles. This is why you don't put all your eggs in one basket and assume until you have all the info. That being said, one of my gripes with progressive's approach to its storytelling is that it plays its cards so close to its chest, making it difficult for viewers to get a grasp on where the main plot is going..but then again you can also levy that complaint to the original's narrative as well.
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The robot didn't lift the iron the giant palm tree looking pole did. The robot just rode the pole. The robot still seems pretty pointless beyond making the action scene cooler. Which is fine but it just made me long for the days when things happened in FLCL for actual reasons. (Also side note: I'm forgetting the dudes name at the moment but wasn't the bureau trying to get an NO reaction from him before he got launched? I think they wanted to lift the iron because they assumed the underbelly would be weak to attack? So maybe it was their pole and bot? The bot could be there to defend the pole, so that would make sense, but one could still just attack where the bot isn't. Idk. It's fine. The bots probably justified but I'm still calling it a flimsy justification.)
I don't think you could level these complaints at FLCL 1 at all. I made several points earlier about how the original remained clear and cohesive. There were mysteries, sure, like what Haruko's ulterior motives were but episodes plots followed individual character arcs and didn't hinge on mysteries to be solved in the last episode. I'd be interested to hear your arguments on how the original's narrative could also be criticised for being too difficult to follow.
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-Now that the Iron is up, Haruko is trying to finish digesting Jinyu while waiting for end game (it seems that Jinyu wasn't sitting well in her stomach; either that or it was an allusion to pregnancy and there might have some relevant bearing on the plot going into the finale)
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Whatever it was I didn't need it and I can't unsee it. Oh god.
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You can ask similar questions about Naota's brother: he's gone and as a result, Naota feels like he's lost the only reliable adult in his life; he feels like he doesn't hold a candle to his brother; but why does he idolize him so much? Why should I care that Naota doesn't respect the other adults in his life but his brother? Naota doesn't really say much about his brother and what we do get, we hear in passing from other characters in the show like him being great at baseball. With Hidomi's situation, her dad is gone and it affects her because her sad, but it makes her mom sad too. As a matter of fact, it seems that a good chunk of Hidomi's sadness is a consequence of how much her father's disappearance has saddened her mother rather than her own personal feelings (although she does have them). Seeing the lengths her mother goes to be all cheery and shit when in reality she doesn't completely feel that way eats away at Hidomi. As Hidomi said in ep 4; with the headphones, she shuts out her mom's sobbing and crying so that she doesn't have to deal with the reality of that pain all the time. The information is there; the difference between the original and progressive is how they go about communicating their protagonist's angst. We see how Naota behaves around his family, how he responds when his brother is brought up in conversation, how he looks up to Haruko, his desire to "deal" with mamimi and fill the shoes of his brother as her "protector"...the original shows all these different shades of Naota and his interactions with the cast and the situations around him (i.e good writing); and its because of this that we develop a sentimental connection to him as viewers (or that at least it's easier to). With progressive, there's less of a focus on driving that dynamism in Hidomi's interactions with people and so her character doesn't come off as endearing. We know why we should care, the episodes have told us why? but that's part of the problem, it told us. As hallucinogenic progressive likes to be at times, it verbally exposits at moments when it should be showing, which works against the show's storytelling.
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I guess you could technically ask those questions but you kind of answered them yourself. Naota looked up to his brother and respected him more than anyone else. We see how his absence impacts so many of Naota's interactions and those impacts make sense and help further flesh out Naota's complex over his brother.
This doesn't exist at all for Hidomi. That's the point I was trying to make. I assume she loves her dad as most children do. Did she admire him like Naota admired Tasuku? Did she say something mean to him and regrets that it was the last time they spoke? We dont have any understanding of what kind of person he was at all and what his presence meant to Hidomi. All we know is her dad is gone and she feels bad. That's just so basic and bland. It might as well be her central character trait beyond being introverted and it's paper thin. Sure, Tasuku is less of a character and more of a framing device or character trait of Naota's but there's way more to it than simply, 'Naota's brother is gone and it makes him sad.'
When I ask why I should care, I'm specifically looking for what the fact of her father's absence, her mother's crying says about Hidomi's character beyond she wears headphones and is sad.
Though I do ultimately agree with your point here 100%. I should point out when I agree with you more often, sorry, I honestly forget to sometimes.
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"I mean, it's probably hard for the town to forget the big red birb but how does she know that's what Haruko wants?"
We already know why. I guess it was a "blink and you'll miss it" but when Hidomi starts overflowing in ep 4 and releases enough N.O. for Jinyu and Haruko to come out of her. You can say it's sort of a callback to the original when Naota learns about the truth of medical mechanica after being used to activate the plant. As the both of them were escaping from her head, she learned of Haruko's intentions and why she split into Jinyu, and by doing so, she learned of Atomsk and MM, hence why ep 4 ended with her saying that she knows what Haruko wants and refuses to go with her.
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I know what you're talking about. I remember it showing that bizarre cut of Haruko splitting off into Jinyuu, Atomsk erupting out of Jinyuu's head, and Atomsk breaking the chain. But how does that tell her she's in love with the bird? Naota saw irons flattening out the planet, even if Amarao wasnt screaming about them flattening the wrinkles so you can't think, I feel like that was a clearer vision than Hidomi's. Maybe Hidomi got it from Haruko's drawing that same episode? With her hubby being a bird? But I want to believe the show is better than that. It would beg the question why Haruko would even do that unless she wanted Hidomi to see it (even though Hidomi wasn't paying attention) but maybe that's just all part of her plan.
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But we know what the flower pot does; it reverses the flow of N.O; so rather than something traveling through the portal, it can seemingly mimic Atomsk's power in that it can act like a black hole of sorts and pull things in. What you don't know is how immigration bureau plans on using this to combat medical mechanica. |
Fair enough, I didn't want to assume that it's interaction with Ide was it's intended function, but seeing that NO is totally a part of the bureau's plan it does make sense. So I'll change that one to "what the bureau wants to do with the potted plant."
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DirtyCircle
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 128
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:51 am
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I’ve hated this series so much until this episode. I wanted to like this FLCL more than anything because of how important the original is to me but it just couldn’t connect. THIS episode finally did it though, this is FLCL.
Why couldn’t the entire season be like this one? Ugh!
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DirtyCircle
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 128
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:39 am
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DreamedLint wrote: | I definitely think I hated episode 5 the least. Dream sequence was tight. Somebody on the production team learned how to use the Pillows well for the first time since episode 1. The visuals overall were solid, I liked the expressive character animation with gestures and facial expressions. But the problems i have with the show overall are coming to a head. It's so obnoxious that we need to wait until the last episode for anything to really make sense... |
I’ve watched every episode of this series twice, sometimes back to back. No matter what though, this series has always seemed off. It never felt like FLCL. It felt almost as a pretender. It’s technically good and I always saw a lot of potential but it just floundered and never conveyed the true feeling of FLCL to me.
My issues are the ones I’ve read about communication and your thoughts on the music in this episode is dead on. I don’t think the music has been very effective and hell, with that opening in the first episode- someone should of been fired. This director though, Kei Suezawa seems to of gotten the memo that the others missed and capable of bringing across the emotion I want to feel and in a visual manner that is different and exciting, unlike the others. He really should of directed the entire series, had he, I suspect this could of rivaled the original FLCL for me.
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we love lain
Joined: 24 Apr 2018
Posts: 145
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 9:30 am
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DirtyCircle wrote: | I’ve hated this series so much until this episode. I wanted to like this FLCL more than anything because of how important the original is to me but it just couldn’t connect. THIS episode finally did it though, this is FLCL.
Why couldn’t the entire season be like this one? Ugh! |
Both episode 4 and 5 are a more cohesive flcl package. You're really sleeping on ep 4 and Yoshihide's Inaba's more erratic yet sensible storyboarding and visual language. And what did you find so egregious about the use of Thank you my twilight in the premiere's opening ep?
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we love lain
Joined: 24 Apr 2018
Posts: 145
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:12 am
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@DreamLint "I made several points earlier about how the original remained clear and cohesive. There were mysteries, sure, like what Haruko's ulterior motives were but episodes plots followed individual character arcs and didn't hinge on mysteries to be solved in the last episode."
I'm not talking about the individual character arcs in original. I'm talking about central plot itself, which was quite flimsy at best. The overarching narrative could never be followed on a first watch...that is pretty much a fact. Everything about the plot was esoteric as hell until the final ep and even then most people had to watch the show several times to pull the pieces together. The difference with the original and progressive is that character motivations (especially ones tied to the plot) remained clear. I hope you can see a trend here where you make a complaint and i point out the underlying reason why the complaint has legitimacy. I feel like some of your complaints don't actually get behind why your issue is an issue. By making what seems like a surface-level complaint, you miss the real reason why the complaint is an issue and conflate the surface detail for the actual problem when it actually isn't.
"Naota saw irons flattening out the planet, even if Amarao wasnt screaming about them flattening the wrinkles so you can't think, I feel like that was a clearer vision than Hidomi's"
That isn't exactly clear what the MM irons are actually doing, but ok. Either way, i found Hidomi's brief flashes, while discordant in presentation (intentionally so) in ep 4 effectively explaining why Hidomi knows what Haruko wants; I mean, how can she not know after seeing all that.
"They do acknowledge the headphones are an MM device but I'm not sure where you're getting her transformations being tied to MM from"
How can you not get that from what the show is presenting you. Whenever her N.O. starts activating, the Headphones immediately go haywire. As Jinyu stated, the headphones actively inhibit her N.O energy spikes. Hidomi is going "beserk" in a way, but that loss of control is more akin to a signal misfire as a result of the inhibitor than Hidomi just going berserk on her own volition, hence why i said the off-kilter transformations are a product of MM's interference. It just makes sense. Just wait for a blu-ray commentary or something and then remember this comment
"I could see how this bugs Ide but it's hard to empathize with him when it honestly seems like overflowing would be the best thing to happen to this girl. Just let it out, don't bottle up your emoshuns."
Sure and then have some sort of unexplained catastrophy happen as a result
"I'm baffled as to what Haruko has done to earn Ide's ire, not what she's done period."
This one is pretty clear; I don't see how it's not. Now if you want to criticize why Ide's loyalty to Haruko was affected by an insular character like Hidomi, sure; I can get behind that. A few of your complaints seem surface level rather than getting to the root of why something is a problem. Not that I'm disagreeing with all of those complaints, but you should highlight the actual issue tied to your complaint rather than conflating that issue with the surface level observation. Our whole talk about using adrenaline pumping situations to facilitate fondness between characters is a good example of this in that before, you were calling that type of writing disingenuous when the real issue is that either there should be a preexisting context or the situation should have more dynamic character beats within it like you later on go to clarify; although you should have said that in the beginning as that should have been the main takeaway, not what you originally said.
"The robot didn't lift the iron the giant palm tree looking pole did. The robot just rode the pole"
It's safe to assume the pole is legitimatley meant to be a part of the robot; you're splitting hairs here.
Last edited by we love lain on Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DirtyCircle
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 128
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:05 pm
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we love lain wrote: | Both episode 4 and 5 are a more cohesive flcl package. You're really sleeping on ep 4 and Yoshihide's Inaba's more erratic yet sensible storyboarding and visual language. And what did you find so egregious about the use of Thank you my twilight in the premiere's opening ep? |
I actually adore that song. My problem was with the sound mixing and having it too loud. It felt like they had to make it front and center so we knew right away The Pillows were back. I can’t tell you how many times I had to rewind to try to make out that opening narration. It got a lot better but with this episode, I was just feeling a stronger FLCL-ness to the series and that a perfect balance was struck with visuals and music. It couldn’t be easy making the series because of concerns of rejection for not being FLCL enough or relying too much.
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FLCLGainax
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:16 pm
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I really liked the art direction in this episode. Why is the tone so inconsistent?
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we love lain
Joined: 24 Apr 2018
Posts: 145
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:58 pm
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DirtyCircle wrote: |
we love lain wrote: | Both episode 4 and 5 are a more cohesive flcl package. You're really sleeping on ep 4 and Yoshihide's Inaba's more erratic yet sensible storyboarding and visual language. And what did you find so egregious about the use of Thank you my twilight in the premiere's opening ep? |
I actually adore that song. My problem was with the sound mixing and having it too loud. It felt like they had to make it front and center so we knew right away The Pillows were back. I can’t tell you how many times I had to rewind to try to make out that opening narration. It got a lot better but with this episode, I was just feeling a stronger FLCL-ness to the series and that a perfect balance was struck with visuals and music. It couldn’t be easy making the series because of concerns of rejection for not being FLCL enough or relying too much. |
That's very strange because the first minutes of the premiere were the moments i felt the sound mixing was the best throughout the episode. I could hear Hidomi's monologuing perfectly and the music always knew when to subdue itself and when to crank up in like the sudden boom when Hidomi's N.O. goes off after Atomsk's corpse opens its eye or the crescending of the music as she dashes towards MM. I really don't see the problem with that section. As the eps went by, the sound mixing definitely took a hit; however Ep 5 is by the far the best at using the pillows track both in terms of audio mixing (for the most part anyway) and picking the right song to fit the mood of the scene. The directing is just good here and i wish we got more of that with progressive
Last edited by we love lain on Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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we love lain
Joined: 24 Apr 2018
Posts: 145
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:21 pm
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FLCLGainax wrote: | I really liked the art direction in this episode. Why is the tone so inconsistent? |
Yea I don't really understand this complaint either; if there was any outsourcing being done here, it was probably for the sake of sending the work over to other animators who would be capable of achieving and refining the aesthetic this entire episode was going for. This was probably not an easy episode to pull off: for one, paint on glass is not a technique that many current animators have a mastery of so it wouldn't surprise me if some of the outsourcing was also tied to that (it was probably just one animator handling that entire opening sequence but still. EDIT: turns out that one animator is no other than the inimitable Kou Yoshinari). This was a visually impressive episode and anything about how off-kilter the product ended up being was completely intentional. The aesthetic gave plenty of this week's episode a poignancy and emotional heft that hasn't been too present in progressive throughout its. I swear if progressive was firing on all cylinders like it has been for these last two eps we might have had a sequel on par with the original. Right now we have a sequel that's just decent, and that's ultimately what has a lot of hardcore fans' feathers ruffled. That the anime they place on such a high pedestal has a follow-up that's just not as good
Last edited by we love lain on Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:19 am; edited 3 times in total
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Yazu13
Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 129
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:37 pm
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Does anybody know the song that plays as Hidomi tries to throw herself off of the Medical Mechanica plant in Episode 4? I don't know if it's a Pillows song.
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DreamedLint
Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 42
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:53 pm
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we love lain wrote: |
I'm not talking about the individual character arcs in original. I'm talking about central plot itself, which was quite flimsy at best. The overarching could never be followed on a first watch...that is pretty much a fact. Everything about the plot was esoteric as hell until the final ep and even then most people had to watch the show several time to pull the pieces together. The difference with the original and progressive is that character motivations (especially ones tied to the plot) remained clear. I hope you can see a trend here where you make a complaint and i point out the underlying reason why the complaint has legitimacy. I feel like some of your complaints don't actually get behind why your issue is an issue. By making what seems like a surface-level complaint, you miss the real reason why the complaint is an issue and conflate the surface detail for the actual problem when it actually isn't. |
I watched FLCL for the first time when I was pretty young so I definitely didn't get the plot until multiple viewings, so not arguing there. Not sure I'm feeling your line of criticism here. I've made an honest effort to cite evidence for my complaints and concede points that you and others have made. I know I'm talking about the character plots but the two seemed pretty interconnected. The plot of some episodes almost entirely revolved around those characters. I don't see the difference in semantics between character arcs and the plot itself being all that important in this case. It's annoying because I think you get what I'm saying and even mostly agree but apparently I'm not getting behind the real underlying issue. I think I am. The focus on dragging out these extended reveals at the cost of character development is making episodic and overall plots suffer. I don't remember any part of FLCL og having scenes of characters screaming at eachother about plot points and concepts that are yet to be explained for multiple episodes.
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"Naota saw irons flattening out the planet, even if Amarao wasnt screaming about them flattening the wrinkles so you can't think, I feel like that was a clearer vision than Hidomi's"
That isn't exactly clear what the MM irons are actually doing, but ok. Either way, i found Hidomi's brief flashes, while discordant in presentation (intentionally so) in ep 4 effectively explaining why Hidomi knows what Haruko wants; I mean, how can she not know after seeing all that.
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How does the three flashes we got actually explain Haruko is in love with Birdman? Naota saw irons flattening the earth. Almost like the irons are a danger to the earth. Hidomi saw Haruko split into Jinyuu, Jinyuu NO Atomsk out, and Atomsk breaking the chain. She could reasonably ascertain that Haruko is after a big bird, but I have no clue how she could get she's in love from that. Maybe she's piecing together what Jinyuu said, but you didn't mention that. Maybe your missing why your point is actually a point or whatever.
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"They do acknowledge the headphones are an MM device but I'm not sure where you're getting her transformations being tied to MM from"
How can you get that from what the show is presenting you. Whenever her N.O. starts activating, the Headphones immediately go haywire. As Jinyu stated, the headphones actively intend to inhibit her N.O energy spikes. Hidomi is going "beserk" in a way, put that loss of control is more akin to signal misfire as a result of the inhibitor than Hidomi just going berserk on her own volition, hence why i said the off-kilter transformations are a product of MM's interference. It just makes sense. Just wait for a blu-ray commentary or something and then remember this comment
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Yeah, if it turns out that's exactly whats going on when I definitely buy the Blu rays for this heap and definitely listen to the commentary, I'll post back here and congratulate you. Don't hold your breath though.
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"I could see how this bugs Ide but it's hard to empathize with him when it honestly seems like overflowing would be the best thing to happen to this girl. Just let it out, don't bottle up your emoshuns."
Sure and then have some sort of unexplained catastrophy happen as a result
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Ayy, how bad could it be?
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"I'm baffled as to what Haruko has done to earn Ide's ire, not what she's done period."
This one is pretty clear; I don't see how it's not. Now if you want to criticize why Ide's loyalty to Haruko was affected by an insular character like Hidomi, sure; I can get behind that. A few of your complaints seem surface level rather than getting to the root of why something is a problem. Not that I'm disagreeing with all of those complaints, but you should highlight the actual issue tied to your complaint rather than conflating that issue with the surface level observation. Our whole talk about using adrenaline pumping situations to facilitate fondness between characters is a good example of this in that before, you were calling that type of writing disingenuous when the real issue is that either there should be a preexisting context or the situation should have more dynamic character beats within it like you later on go to clarify; although you should have said that in the beginning as that should have been the main takeaway, not what you originally said.
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Uggh. Ok so this is apparently so clear that you don't even need to provide any examples. Also yes, you read my mind, I'm actually just mad because Ide likes Hidomi and I just don't like Hidomi. Remind me maybe to concede less because you seem to just take it and run. I wasn't thinking about how characters could grow closer through harrowing events and it still be effective. After you brought it up, it made sense so I thought more about my perspective and elaborated on it. I'm sorry it wasn't 100% clear at the beginning but the fun of discussion is it helps further everybody's understanding. I thought that was an interesting part of out discussion, but apparently I was conflating my surface level observation with an actual issue. Ah yes it all makes sense now.
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It's safe to assume the pole is legitimatley meant to be a part of the robot; you're splitting hairs here. |
...But why not just have the pole? Your obvious, surface level observation isn't an actual argument you know?
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DreamedLint
Joined: 02 Jul 2015
Posts: 42
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Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:26 pm
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That's very strange because the first minutes of the premiere were the moments i felt the sound mixing was the best throughout the episode. I could hear Hidomi's monologuing perfectly and the music always knew when to subdue itself and when to crank up in like the sudden boom when Hidomi's N.O. goes off after Atomsk's corpse opens its eye or the crescending of the music as she dashes towards MM. I really don't see the problem with that section. As the eps went by, the sound mixing definitely took a hit; however Ep 5 is by the far the best at using the pillows track both in terms of audio mixing and picking the right song to fit the mood of the scene. The directing is just good here and i wish we got more of that with progressive |
Yeah I agree with you here. The first part of episode 1 is still my favorite use of the Pillows in Progressive so far. 5 has also been the most consistently good at it. And I'm a big hater fistinater.
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