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Kicksville
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
Posts: 1245
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:09 pm
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I'm fully expecting Frieza's presence here to be set up for the next arc (or maybe even the one after that). I wouldn't even be surprised if he goes out like a chump in the tournament itself, so long as he's around to enact whatever it is he has in mind afterwards.
Or at least, I figure it was supposed to be. Assuming Toei isn't being mean and the hiatus really is just a hiatus ._.
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Marimo0
Joined: 06 Sep 2016
Posts: 186
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:18 pm
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It would fit the previous arcs to have Frieza around so that Goku didn't win.
BoG arc, Goku loses to Beerus and earth is safe only because Beerus respected the fight he put up.
RoF arc, it's the closest to having Goku win but he needed Whis to turn back time so he could get a do over before Frieza blew up the planet because previously Goku ended getting beat and Vegeta didn't kill Frieza fast enough.
Universe 6 arc, Goku forfeits to Hit and Universe 7 only wins the tournament because Hit decides to forfeit to Monaka out of respect to Goku.
Future Trunks arc, Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks fail to stop Zamasu and he takes over the universe, so they have to call in Future Zen-Oh to just wipe the whole universe out.
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Zeino
Joined: 19 May 2017
Posts: 1098
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Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:11 am
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So, Toppo: I've rather liked him since the beginning. I find his design to be distinct and memorable, with his bulky frame and huge arms, his veiny head and big bushy moustache, and his cat-like eyes. And he's got a good personality to match, with his bombast, his principles, and his paternal geniality. He's got the demeanour of a stern yet pleasant grandfather, which I've found to make him endearing in its own right, and quite unique as an oppositional force in the series. It helps that he's been accentuated by some good interactions, such as contrasting him with Goku (whom he clearly finds rather inexplicable), or seeing him in his civvies having a drink while somberly reflecting on the future of his universe.
That also made it work well with the indications that the tournament has been taking a toll on him, possibly more than it has on any other participant. Hell, the likes of Goku actually enjoy being here, and most others who aren't malicious have been primarily focused on just getting through, but it was established before that for Toppo, the stakes and the fact that his universe was brought to a razor's edge was wearing down on him. He really just didn't seem to want to be here, which goes with the grandfatherly personality thing.
So the sight of him assuming this kind of power was certainly impressive, but it was also rather sad to me, lacking the triumph of something like Kefla or Anilaza, because of what it's cost him. To have Freeza mocking him over his destroyed uniform (which has previously been established to be something he holds very dearly) and driven to a point where he declares that justice is worthless now was quite sobering, and the way in which he and Jiren phrased it as him "finally making up his mind" suggests that this is something he's had reservations about that he's finally been pushed to. Hence lacking the sense of triumph; even if he was to come through the tournament, he's already been beaten, because he lost something that mattered to him.
All of that does contribute well to his demeanour with Destruction powers, because he genuinely radiates some menace; he's like the moment of Beerus Destroying Zamasu spread out over an extended fight scene, and it's quite chilling. But it's still sad.
It's an excellent piece of characterisation, though, and I'm glad it was here in the show. I do like Jiren and all, for reasons including that I find his stoicism to make a strong contrast with the insanity that surrounds him, but Toppo was the more interesting before, and the arc that's been given to him is compelling and well realised and unique in its tragedy.
After all, how many times in Dragon Ball, of all things, has a character growing much stronger been framed as a significant loss for them?
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AnimusPrime
Joined: 15 Feb 2015
Posts: 51
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Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:21 am
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Toppo: "Justice and Evil, I'm beyond that now."
... beyond good and evil ...
...
...seriously. You mean to tell me... Toppo, the guy with the huge mustache, is actually Super Nietzsche from Another Dimension
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Maidenoftheredhand
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 2634
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Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:19 am
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Zeino wrote: | So, Toppo: I've rather liked him since the beginning. I find his design to be distinct and memorable, with his bulky frame and huge arms, his veiny head and big bushy moustache, and his cat-like eyes. And he's got a good personality to match, with his bombast, his principles, and his paternal geniality. He's got the demeanour of a stern yet pleasant grandfather, which I've found to make him endearing in its own right, and quite unique as an oppositional force in the series. It helps that he's been accentuated by some good interactions, such as contrasting him with Goku (whom he clearly finds rather inexplicable), or seeing him in his civvies having a drink while somberly reflecting on the future of his universe.
That also made it work well with the indications that the tournament has been taking a toll on him, possibly more than it has on any other participant. Hell, the likes of Goku actually enjoy being here, and most others who aren't malicious have been primarily focused on just getting through, but it was established before that for Toppo, the stakes and the fact that his universe was brought to a razor's edge was wearing down on him. He really just didn't seem to want to be here, which goes with the grandfatherly personality thing.
So the sight of him assuming this kind of power was certainly impressive, but it was also rather sad to me, lacking the triumph of something like Kefla or Anilaza, because of what it's cost him. To have Freeza mocking him over his destroyed uniform (which has previously been established to be something he holds very dearly) and driven to a point where he declares that justice is worthless now was quite sobering, and the way in which he and Jiren phrased it as him "finally making up his mind" suggests that this is something he's had reservations about that he's finally been pushed to. Hence lacking the sense of triumph; even if he was to come through the tournament, he's already been beaten, because he lost something that mattered to him.
All of that does contribute well to his demeanour with Destruction powers, because he genuinely radiates some menace; he's like the moment of Beerus Destroying Zamasu spread out over an extended fight scene, and it's quite chilling. But it's still sad.
It's an excellent piece of characterisation, though, and I'm glad it was here in the show. I do like Jiren and all, for reasons including that I find his stoicism to make a strong contrast with the insanity that surrounds him, but Toppo was the more interesting before, and the arc that's been given to him is compelling and well realised and unique in its tragedy.
After all, how many times in Dragon Ball, of all things, has a character growing much stronger been framed as a significant loss for them? |
Just want to say this is such a brilliant character analysis. I love reading stuff like this from the fandom.
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Gasero
Joined: 24 Jul 2009
Posts: 939
Location: USA
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Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:41 am
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I really like the detailed character analysis of Toppo, but I honestly think you've thought about it more than the writers did. As much as I want to find something in this battle royal, I don't think there was much thought put towards character growth.
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Zeino
Joined: 19 May 2017
Posts: 1098
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Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:29 pm
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Gasero wrote: | I really like the detailed character analysis of Toppo, but I honestly think you've thought about it more than the writers did. As much as I want to find something in this battle royal, I don't think there was much thought put towards character growth. |
Well that is because I don't have your uncharitably towards Super. But we shall see. Personally I feel this arc is a culmination of all the threads that Dragon Ball has been introducing since Battle of Gods and mostly likely meant to go here.
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Gasero
Joined: 24 Jul 2009
Posts: 939
Location: USA
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Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:56 pm
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Zeino wrote: |
Gasero wrote: | I really like the detailed character analysis of Toppo, but I honestly think you've thought about it more than the writers did. As much as I want to find something in this battle royal, I don't think there was much thought put towards character growth. |
Well that is because I don't have your uncharitably towards Super. But we shall see. Personally I feel this arc is a culmination of all the threads that Dragon Ball has been introducing since Battle of Gods and mostly likely meant to go here. |
I agree that the the battle royal arc is the culmination of all the Battle of the Gods plotlines (literally), but I don't think that there was much thought put behind character growth and development. Surprisingly, with Toppo's transformation in episode 125, he is the character that has exhibited the most growth in DBS.
When I look at other characters in the series, I don't see their personality or development as significantly different than when DBS began.
Giving Goku and Vegeta more power levels has continued to be a substitute for actual character development, which I dislike. Frieza is the same as he was before. No. 17 had an interesting development in his character, which makes him an exception. No. 18 basically the same. Piccolo, Gohan, Krillin, Roshi...all the same. Beerus and Whiz, same.
DBS has expanded the world of Dragonball, but is hasn't really grown the characters.
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GhostD
Joined: 07 May 2016
Posts: 1038
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:47 am
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Quote: | I don't think this means he's officially Universe 11's new God of Destruction in place of Belmond, but he's been given new powers so he's up for training. |
I know its almost a week late to say this but life gets in the way. Still aside from being a GoD candidate Toppo was already being trained by either Belmond or Margarita which explains why he can already tap into the PoD. Its clear that the anime is telling people to read the manga to know the details which, to be fair, isnt too hard considering Viz posts them for free on their site so we can read without it being illegal.
Even though the manga and anime are considered separate forms of DBS canon Toyotaro made sure to implement aspects from the manga in the anime as well which somewhat closes the canonical gap with the 2 media
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#844391
Joined: 09 Sep 2015
Posts: 517
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Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:12 am
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Ep 126,
This episode just didn't feel satisfying, Vegeta using "Nakama power up" to beat Toppo (and not even having to die this time) just felt anticlimactic, especially when Toppo being a God of destruction was hyped up so much and being shown as pretty much unstoppable up until this point, but then gets defeated because of the power of feelings. But the plot calls for the side cast to be eliminated so there you go.
And seriously Jiren saying "I expected more from you" to Toppo just pissed me off, Jiren has been standing on the sidelines the entire tournament, and has been holding back all this time when he could have ended the whole thing ages ago. Lecture people about badly performing AFTER you finish he tournament you've been procrastinating in up until the last 4 minutes.
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GhostD
Joined: 07 May 2016
Posts: 1038
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Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:57 am
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I admit that Jiren roasting Toppo came as a surprise but was interested me even more was what he said to Vegeta and the fact that he finally starts showing more emotion than before.
He said that Vegeta didn't cast off/sacrifice anything to get the power he used to beat Toppo so it makes me think that what Jiren was disappointed at was that Toppo sacrificed/cast off something important (probably his pride) and still lost in the end.
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Maidenoftheredhand
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 2634
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Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:04 am
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Vegeta dying would have missed the whole point I think. Toppo throws away everything for a survival but Vegeta holds onto the things that have meaning to him because that is actually part of what it means to survive. In the end it was a clash of ideals.
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Gasero
Joined: 24 Jul 2009
Posts: 939
Location: USA
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Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:29 am
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I give up on the hope that the conclusion of the tournament of power will be satisfying. I don't understand what the purpose of any of these characters is.
Toppo cast off all of his "worldly" feelings so that he could inherent the ultimate power of the universe. Despite holding this ultimate power, Toppo did not eliminate No 17 or Frieza. Vegeta, who has barely harmed Jiren, was able to defeat Toppo's power of destruction just because of emotional resolve to support his family. They've trivialized the power of destruction.
Jiren's denigrating remark towards Toppo was out of character. Is he more powerful than a god of destruction? None of the remaining fighters have enough power to defeat him. Why has Jiren been hiding his ultimate power until only 4 minutes remain?
This is all silly, it makes no sense, and yet, I'll still be here next week.
Maidenoftheredhand wrote: | Vegeta dying would have missed the whole point I think. Toppo throws away everything for a survival but Vegeta holds onto the things that have meaning to him because that is actually part of what it means to survive. In the end it was a clash of ideals. |
I understand this juxtaposition, but it was still Vegeta against the power of a god, and the outcome doesn't make sense.
Last edited by Gasero on Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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Maidenoftheredhand
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 2634
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Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:44 am
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Gasero wrote: |
I understand this juxtaposition, but it was still Vegeta against the power of a god, and the outcome doesn't make sense. |
Why? Toppo just gained the god of destruction powers. Yes he’s certainly more powerful than he was before but we don’t know that he is impossible to beat. I don’t think he is on Beerus’ level for example and I am pretty sure he is under Jiren.
Vegeta trained with Whis and Beerus. I don’t see with a bit of a push it is so outside the realm of abilities that he could have beat Toppo. Unless you think it is impossible for anyone to have beaten Toppo.
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Gasero
Joined: 24 Jul 2009
Posts: 939
Location: USA
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Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:16 am
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Maidenoftheredhand wrote: |
Gasero wrote: |
I understand this juxtaposition, but it was still Vegeta against the power of a god, and the outcome doesn't make sense. |
Vegeta trained with Whis and Beerus. I don’t see with a bit of a push it is so outside the realm of abilities that he could have beat Toppo. Unless you think it is impossible for anyone to have beaten Toppo. |
Toppo trained with Belmond, who also trained Jiren! Jiren, the opponent who Vegeta (and Goku, also trained by Beerus) has barely been able to harm for the entire tournament.
Your calculations still seem off.
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