Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Dragon Ball Super
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Xavon
Posts: 381 Location: Minnesota |
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Gohan did learn that lesson when he was eight. Then Chi-chi spent the next ten years brow-beating it out of him.
Also Krillin is stronger than Tien. Has been since the Namek arc at least. Though I do wish they would add a way for Humans to close the gap. Fine, they'll never fully catch up, but if Krillin could match SSJ2 and 18 could match SSJ3, it would add something. |
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Marimo0
Posts: 186 |
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Maybe come up with a more specific comparison? Super Saiyan levels don't have a fixed power level, they depend on the base power of the saiyan who uses them. Like in Battle of Gods before Goku got the Super Saiyan God form, Vegeta at regular Super Saiyan had surpassed Goku at Super Saiyan 3, evidenced by him putting up a better fight against Beerus. |
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Xavon
Posts: 381 Location: Minnesota |
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Yeah, it is kinda of hard, now that they did away with the (admittedly nonsensical) power levels. Like Goku in his normal form now (in Super) could beat the SSJ Goku that defeated Frieza. Heck, he could probably defeat both his old self and old Frieza without much effort. Fine, let's say I'd like Krillin to become strong enough to be able to beat Imperfect Cell easily, and have even odds against Perfect Cell. And 18 to be able to beat Perfect Cell easily, but not (Fat) Majin Buu. |
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#844391
Posts: 517 |
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Yea, super saiyen states just multiply the person's base power so they stronger they are normally the more they power up when transformed. The problem is that unlike goke and vegeta, Krillin has not been doing insane strength training (lifting regular weights hardly counts when you consider the workout that the main duo go through with whis). So I don't see how krillin could have gotten much stronger from the end of dbz, especially that he now has a day job of being a cop along with being a husband and father.
I'm thinking they are trying to show how he's working on trying to outsmart his opponents rather than beat them at brute strength. The only problem with that is I would expect experienced fighters to be fully ready for unexpected moves he pulls out. I think what will rely define Krillin is his teamwork with 18, fighting together instead of individually, and therefore being able to take on much stronger opponents. At least that is where I hope the series is headed. Sad thing is we all know that in the end it's still going to come down to goku saving the day, unless they really decide to throw a curve ball and let someone else clinch the victory. |
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Valhern
 Posts: 916 |
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The problem here is much simpler, and it's not that "power levels are bullcrap", it's that the fighting system of Dragon Ball is just whatever works at the moment. We never really know when or how the warriors get better, they just max out two stats: speed and attack.
Think of it this way: was Goku's kung fu better than Freezer's... alien-fu? No, he just overpowered him. The same goes for Hit and Goku, true, Hit had a tricky power that he used very well, but at no point his power as a martial artist was a hurdle for Goku. In the end, every "lesson" they learn is more a way to patch up this huge crack Dragon Ball ended up having as a fighting manga, rather than making for a training arc or self-improvements of the characters. I won't lie, I love DBZ fights when they have good layouts, but I also know it's a pretty stale aspect of the show that only is changed up depending on the vision of animators (and Toriyama) to give the characters a unique combo and very iconic moments, rather than something that comes from the in-world rules. |
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GhostD
Posts: 1038 |
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I can see them doing another 4-5 eps before the actual tournament. While I dont think theyll dedicate 1 ep per character for the remaining 5 I recon theyll dedicate at least 3 for the remaining characters including Vegeta and 17 and then 1 for training/preparation since from the look of the preview theyre gonna show the other universes preparing as well which will likely take up some screen time
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penguintruth
 Posts: 8499 Location: Penguinopolis |
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With Goku and a lot of the fighters, particularly the Saiyans, while they do have techniques, they always aim to knock out or kill their opponent, but Kuririn still has a tournament mentality because it's the only place left he can thrive, due to a lack of power compared to others. This is why it was smart for Goku to choose him for the team. Playing solely within the stated rules is something Goku struggles with because he largely left the world of tournament rules behind ages ago (for instance, he wasn't trying for ring outs in any of the recent competitions, even though Vegeta won a match with one). Having to get by on wits is what makes fighters like Kuririn so well qualified for the team.
It could be especially useful if there are fighters much stronger than Goku in the battle royale. If ring out is the name of the game, even being around others who are more clever can inspire Goku to learn a trick or two. |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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Since they're going to a tournament ("with rules") format, I think the show would be helped IMMEASURABLY if they can have a match (even if during training like this) that Goku really and truly straight-up LOSES specifically because he can't "overpower" his opponent. (ie. he's stronger, but his opponent is SMARTER, or even like OLD school Roshi, "more skilled") The biggest problem with the DB "formula" is its well-known that it's just "... and then he powers up/gets stronger and wins" It'd be really good for the long-term if Goku has at LEAST one fight that he's clearly stronger than his opponent (from beginning to end) but he loses because someone can use his strength against him (or at least "trick" him into a ring-out or something).
ps - It'd be a bonus if they bring back Roshi's alter-ego as the character that never "lost" to Goku to maintain that streak and teach him a new lesson |
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Baggie_Saiyan
 Posts: 152 |
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No flight, No Ko'ing. No senzu... This Tournament is gonna be hella interesting!
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penguintruth
Posts: 8499 Location: Penguinopolis |
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Goku's team doesn't need senzu, anyway. Majin Buu can naturally heal others with his powers. |
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Baggie_Saiyan
Posts: 152 |
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Very good point! Let us just hope other teams do not have healers and we should be good! |
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Marimo0
Posts: 186 |
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That comparison still seems pointless because we don't have Cell around to compare them to. So in the show, how would you even know they became that strong? They could be given a powerup and still be weaker than Imperfect and Perfect Cell. Or maybe after some regular training they already are above those levels. It's all moot.
That seems rather redundant since we just had a match where Gohan lost to Krillin. That message was already made to the audience. And I don't think Goku himself needs a lesson in that, he saw the match and almost got out of bounds himself during his match. Him "needing" to learn that lesson the hard way by still making him lose at this point would just suggest Goku is dumb and unobservant when it comes to battling because he hadn't already known this, when really battling is the one area where he's noted to be smart at and should have a better understanding of. |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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Gohan lost to a ring-out, but Goku did not and would've won by sheer power had 18 not essentially stopped the fight with a "its not just 1-on-1" comment that means very little really.
Please don't misunderstand, I don't think it'd be interesting because "Goku needs to learn a lesson", I think it'd be interesting to show there ARE different kinds of "strength". Goku is not "dumb" but he is rather single minded, and the biggest flaw with the DB franchse as it goes on is the combination of these two points: -Strongest power level wins -Goku has (or will have) the strongest power level when it matters THAT is why all the "non-Goku" characters (SOMETIMES excepting for Vegeta (and not counting when Gohan was written as the 'Goku successor')) always don't matter, because we know Goku will win in the end. Heck, that's even what they say to each other "we just need to wait for Goku". Bleach had that same problem and (IMO) that's why it died. Compare it with One Piece or (at its best) Naruto, yes Luffy and Naruto are the main characters who will beat the "big" bad, but characters like Usopp and Shikamaru still MATTER because you get situations and enemies that you don't beat by just "hit it harder". I'm saying DB would benefit if there's situations (not even all that common) that Krillin or Roshi or 18 (or Bulma) come up with a CLEVER solution or even just something that Goku CAN'T do for whatever reason, so you don't immediately dismiss them as "weaker than frieza". Because right now, their main roles are (at best) to "buy time" while Goku is healing, or training, or flying fast to get there or whatever else. |
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Marimo0
Posts: 186 |
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They've still already been emphasizing, including Goku himself, that they're going to need teamwork to get through this. And they don't need to beat Goku in order to for this message to be valid, especially for this tournament. Given the conditions of the tournament, it's not the same thing as how they usually do things. They can't just go down to Goku unless in 48 minutes almost all the fighters do get eliminated because even if he's the last man standing he loses if the timer's up and there's a universe with a bigger surviving team. They need as many people on the team to survive, and they'll need each other to help knock out their opponents and to counter them teaming up to take universe 7 out.
There's no doubt Goku's match against Jiren is probably going to be the final deciding factor, but that's typical for most stories. His fight is going to be the grand finale of the tournament, but I'm sure that all the fights and victories and losses that the others obtain will be important too in giving reason for why universe 7 still has a chance to win if they can just beat Jiren. Plus given how a lot of arcs in Dragon Ball go, along with the rule that knocks out don't eliminate fighters, only ring outs, I expect there's going to be a moment during the tournament where Goku is somehow incapacitated (healing in the pod at Namek, got a heart disease, is dead) and the rest of the team will need to keep him protected while also pushing towards victory. |
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Marimo0
Posts: 186 |
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I might have had to eat crow concerning my last statement. Though he wasn't at full power, Goku still lost a sparring match against Buu thanks to Buu's strategy to create a blind spot and attack Goku when it appeared. This also helped reestablish something that was noted of back in the Buu saga that Buu does have smarts when it comes to fighting too, such as how he's able to easily learn other character's techniques like the kamehameha.
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