Forum - View topic"Thinking man's shows", received better in Japan?
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Vortextk
 Posts: 892 Location: Orlando, Fl |
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Not quite sure how to word the topic title =P, anyway...
After seeing a quick word about Mushishi and reading a very short synopsis about it(shorter the better as I like to know very little going in), I've started the series. I think it's amazing. I'll be reading and posting in TonyK's topic when I finish it. So as to my question, how "well" does a show like this do in Japan? Or something like Haibane Renmei perhaps? I don't think America is just a big country of stupid ignorant people. People are like that in general everywhere heh, but I can't imagine something like Mushishi doing ANYTHING over here on CBS or FOX. I haven't seen 24 for example but from everything I've heard, it's a damn good show. Hopefully I get to see reality TV die off and see more shows like 24 come into being. But even that, it's action and suspense with explosions and espionage. I'm not asking if Japan is some super race of humans more intelligent than everyone else or if they are able to appreciate something smart more than others. But I see anime like this every now and then with what I believe to hold almost nothing for the general American audience and I wonder, do people really "sell" stuff like this and make money off of it? At the end of the day, TV is just another business and they have to make money too. |
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Xenofan 29A
 Posts: 378 |
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Well, I think it depends on the specific example. "Thinking Man's Shows" are certainly less prevalent than other kinds of anime, and this itself is a vague classification. In any event, the main reason why shows like Mushishi would not fare well in the US has less to do with their intellectual content than with the fact that they are anime. But if you are referring to the general level of intelligence of TV programming in the US, well, I'll have to agree it's pretty bad in my opinion. Just about the only things I watch are The Simpsons and King of the Hill (along with some Star Trek DVDs), with nothing else generally interesting me. Most people don't like to think much while watching TV; they enjoy the feeling of watching some meaningless events unfold while sitting down on a comfortable couch, turning their brains off. There's nothing wrong with that, but for those of us who prefer something cereberally stimulating, it's not so easy. |
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ManOfRust
 Posts: 1935 Location: Seattle, WA |
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It seems to me like this type of show is a niche show within a niche genre. It doesn't seem like there are that many intellectually stimulating anime made when compared to the total amount that is produced, but perhaps this type of series is just not making it out of Japan because licensors don't think they can sell them here.
Shows like Haibane Renmei and Kino's Journey are among my absolute favorite anime and very high on my list of any type of show, anime or otherwise. I'm impatiently waiting for my copy of Mushishi to arrive. (It's been really hard to ignore Tony's thread, but I don't want to take any chance of seeing spoilers.) Even though I like this type of show so much and recommend them enthusiastically, when they come up in discussion threads there are always a number of people who comment that they couldn't get into them because they are boring. I think that a lot of people, when they want to be entertained, don't want to have to put a lot of mental effort into it. There's nothing wrong with that. Even I'm not always in the mood for a show with too much intellectual substance and just want to flop on the couch and put something like Vandread in the DVD player. Even so, these shows sometimes do get out to a larger audience even here in the US. Along with some smaller cable networks showing things like Kino's Journey, the much larger Cartoon Network has aired Paranoia Agent which is hardly a simplistic story, and even GiTS has a complex plot underneath the nice animation and action. |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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It's not just the US that has programming of this nature. Japan itself has loads of game shows and reality TV style shows, that is hardly unique the US. Matter of fact the US was late to the reality TV craze, such shows were popular in Asia and Europe well before the US jumped on board.
I don't share the pessimistic attitude towards modern television. People have different tastes and there is a lot of genres to cover. Unless you like every genre the simple fact is mathematically you're going to dislike far more shows than you're going to like, but there's a lot of people out there who tastes differ from your own. What you're going to get from the network are a lot of mainstream, or universally accepted types of shows that cater to the largest audience, or at least the largest audience most frequently watching television at that time. There lies the dilemma, what you're getting on TV are the shows big with people who watch TV most, and as such it is hardly indicative of the intelligence of a nation as a whole. The shows themselves aren't even all that bad anyhow. 24 is far from just a suspenseful and explosion rich action drama, in reality the major action makes up very little of the shows airtime. The drama and suspense is the shows strong point, not the action. You have shows like Heroes and Jericho and Supernatural, and that's just on standard television. Go on cable and you get shows like Deadwood, Rome, Stargate, Battlestar Galactica, Dead Like Me, and the list goes on. Then, like it or not, there are people who really like reality shows and that doesn't necessarily make them stupid either, I know many people I would consider to be quite smart who love to sit down and watch American Idol or Big Brother. To each their own, different tastes doesn't make something less intellectual or the viewer dumber. So you see it is a rich tapestry when you really analyze it. Anime is likely just as complicated when it comes down to an analysis of it and you likely get the same effects, a bulk of the shows catered towards the most mainstream audience or to get the attention of a large number of smaller audiences, but still a number of high quality lesser known titles aimed at the other crowds. Reasons are different, artistic merits are different, sometimes some of it really just comes down to luck. It's really difficult to come up with any truly accurate analysis of it all and there are people in the industries paid almost 6 figures to do just that as a full time job, and even then what they come up with can't be considered law. |
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Nom_Anor
 Posts: 246 |
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It seems to me that the biggest reasons more niche titles tend not to be shown has more to do with the way US television works. Most every US series is expected to either go on for years or be canceled quickly; Anime is much more likely to have a set run of 13ish or 24ish episodes, then end because the story has been completed. This gives much more of a chance for niche titles, because they don't have to be able to pull ratings year after year.
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Xenofan 29A
Posts: 378 |
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I love Haibane Renmei as well; heck, anything ABe is involved in has caught my interest. On the other hand, I love reading long literature-type books, and philosophy, so I'm not the typical consumer in many markets.
How successful was Paranoia Agent's US broadcast? |
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KyuuA4
 Posts: 1361 Location: America, where anime and manga can be made |
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Political Satire and Social Commentary are some of the most intelligent forms of expression in this country. I have yet to see any anime execute good political satire. The closest I've seen was Excel Saga's 5th episode... which isn't even close to what I'm looking for. |
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Vortextk
Posts: 892 Location: Orlando, Fl |
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As I tried to put in my first post, I don't think all american tv is crap. Far from it. I guess implying it wasn't strong enough.
I don't care about american tv vs japan I just wanted to know if anyone really knew how well something like Mushishi actually did. I suppose that is a good point that having a set length, and rather short of 3-6 months, can get you some pretty different television shows. And to Keonyn, I did say 24 was supposed to be very good though I had not personally seen it =) I don't mean a mindless action experience like Seagal's latest travesties but the drama is focused around big ideas like spies or nukes or political kidnappings etc. As said, Mushishi is in a very niche genre and those ideas running around in 24 are exceptionally broad. They may both be excellent shows but it is far easier to sit down and watch an episode of 24 for the average person and I want to know if that's any different in japan. |
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musashi1600
 Posts: 198 Location: Hawaii |
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I get the impression that for some reason, political satire in Japan is rare. I've only heard of it popping up in Excel Saga (as you mentioned) and Nerima Daikon Brothers, and I've never heard of any television series in Japan spending much (if any) time on it. |
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Xenofan 29A
Posts: 378 |
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I didn't get that impression, and I don't believe that myself. I don't watch much american TV, but I'm not against all or even a majority of it. Also, sorry for redirecting conversation. Mushishi was popular in Japan; enough so to merit a live action movie in addition to its anime and manga incarnations. That should make a statement right there. |
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Jkid
 Posts: 197 Location: Capitol Heights ,MD |
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I think the only anime closest to social commentary (regarding social-economic class) was Speed Grapher. |
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Terrestrial_Cel
 Posts: 99 Location: SF Bay Area |
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I think it's probably the same in all countries; the majority of television is not made to entertain, not to make people think. At the same time, there is intellegent programming, but you've got to go out of your way to find it (PBS, Bravo, AMC.. etc). Sometimes you have to even pay more for it (HBO, Showtime... etc)
In this thread, people have listed some wonderful anime "thinking man's shows". But comparatively, I can't help but think of how many brainless fan-service anime series come out of Japan each year. So, I'm not sure if I can say that the "thinking man" demographic is any larger in Japan than it is in North America. |
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Amasa
 Posts: 340 Location: Japan |
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You're right. If you could see the amount of absolute trash that's on the anime DVD shelves here in Japan you'd probably cry. Of course the manga is even worse but as Keonyn said there is many genres out there that focus on many different people. Every electronics shop I've been to so far has had the Mushishi box set on it's shelves, as well as an entire shelf for hentai and every other DVD being either ecchi or loli. I'm afraid Mushishi is as good as it gets but seeing that it was quite succesful I'm sure there'll be more similar manga made into anime. |
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Vortextk
Posts: 892 Location: Orlando, Fl |
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Again, I know there is plenty of trash anime and live action in japan as there is everywhere else =P
And thanks xenofan. Knowing there is a live action movie does mean something. It's obviously been succesful enough |
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petran79
 Posts: 122 |
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If you refer only to animated works then there is a difference in that in Japan there are so many animation studios and companies and so you have more competition and there is a better chance for something good to be produced (out of the hundred ecchi, hentai etc).
While in the US you have only 3-4 major companies/networks that own everything and so due to lack of competition, very few would risk producing something like Mushishi (though I think there are many animators in the US, quite capable of producing such a series, especially in independent work). If you consider how many US animated movies cost millions of dollars and usually are shallow and for younger ages, while the Japanese produce much more in quality with less budget, one can see where the problem lies. Regarding satirical and political cartoons, the US have nothing to be jealous of Japan and I think they're much better. If you look for something like Mushishi by western animators, you have to turn to independent animation. It is a pity how many works are unknown because they are not promoted by the major networks who're interested only for the sales. As for the rest of the non-animated shows and series, they're the same everywhere, that is mostly trash. |
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