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INTEREST: Cosplay Group TuxTeam Perfectly Capture My Love Story! Characters


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partially



Joined: 14 Oct 2007
Posts: 702
Location: Oz
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:30 pm Reply with quote
I used trap in the sense that this is not a transgender. It is the same fellow wearing the baseball cap in the Big Hero 6 stuff, so I was thinking this was crossplay. I would not use the word in relation to transgender. But yeah, in hindsight probably best not to use it at all. Especially in an instance where prejudiced attitudes might be going on.
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Fronzel



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:46 pm Reply with quote
Phew, people were almost having fun.
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JacobC
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:01 pm Reply with quote
Hey guys!

Since there seems to be some confusion about it, here's why "trap" is a really crappy word and people are giving you stink-eye for tossing it around like it's hilarious. As if saying "trap" is just inherently funny or necessary to say over and over again, and adding any additional context for the label makes it any better.

First of all, "trap" originated on 4chan, from ye olde Star Wars Ackbar scene. The fact that it originated on 4chan might be enough of a red flag for some of you, but in case it's not for most of you, here's a very simple plain english breakdown for why women and LGBT folk see that word (and usually the context it's used in by the person who used it) and feel uncomfortable. This is specifically why it's a slur.

Calling a person a "trap" because they're a "biological man in women's clothing" is hurtful because by the word's very plain definition, you are reducing that person to a position of "sexual object if woman, mistake/problem for me if not." The implication is that by looking like an attractive woman, (it is only ever used for people who "pass," you may notice, no one ever uses "trap" for a clearly masculine man in a dress,) they are automatically a sexual option for you, that is their purpose, and if there's a dick under that skirt, you've been "tricked" and that's their fault. It's used as the punchline for a joke, but by cosplaying as a woman, in NO WAY did this guy invite your sexual advances or judgment, whether he's transgender or identifies as a man and just enjoys wearing women's clothing. It's especially not funny considering that the number of trans women or drag performers that have been harassed or murdered because men thought they were women and decided to be violent when they discovered they weren't is really really depressingly high.

Either way, the word is gross, unfunny, punching down, and unkind not only to the man in women's clothing, but also betrays a diminishing attitude toward women: If a woman is pretty, that means she exists to be sexualized by you. If she's secretly a man, that's apparently both your business and your problem. That's what "trap" means, all of that in one crappy little syllable. It's hurtful and shitty. It won't be tolerated here. Hopefully, you can see where we're coming from. If not, you can take it somewhere else.


Last edited by JacobC on Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:59 am; edited 2 times in total
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Kitsunelaine



Joined: 11 Dec 2012
Posts: 123
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:05 pm Reply with quote
JesuOtaku wrote:
Hey guys!

Since there seems to be some confusion about it, here's why "trap" is a really crappy word and people are giving you stink-eye for tossing it around like it's hilarious. As if saying "trap" is just inherently funny or necessary to say over and over again, and adding any additional context for the label makes it any better.

First of all, "trap" originated on 4chan, from ye olde Star Wars Ackbar scene. The fact that it originated on 4chan might be enough of a red flag for some of you, but in case it's not for most of you, here's a very simple plain english breakdown for why women and LGBT folk see that word (and usually the context it's used in by the person who used it) and feel uncomfortable. This is specifically why it's a slur.

Calling a person a "trap" because they're a biological man in women's clothing is hurtful because by the word's very plain definition, you are reducing that person to a position of "sexual object if woman, mistake/problem for me if not." The implication is that by looking like an attractive woman, (it is only ever used for men who "pass," you may notice, no one ever uses "trap" for a clearly masculine man in a dress,) they are automatically a sexual option for you, that is their purpose, and if there's a dick under that skirt, you've been "tricked" and that's their fault. It's used as the punchline for a joke, but by cosplaying as a woman, in NO WAY did this guy invite your sexual advances or judgment, whether he's transgender or identifies as a man and just enjoys wearing women's clothing. It's especially not funny considering that the number of transwomen or drag performers that have been harassed or murdered because men thought they were women and decided to be violent when they discovered they weren't is really really depressingly high.

Either way, the word is gross, unfunny, punching down, and unkind not only to the man in women's clothing, but also betrays a diminishing attitude toward women: If a woman is pretty, that means she exists to be sexualized by you. If she's secretly a man, that's apparently both your business and your problem. That's what "trap" means, all of that in one crappy little syllable. It's hurtful and shitty. It won't be tolerated here. Hopefully, you can see where we're coming from. If not, you can take it somewhere else.


You may ask why I'm quoting this in full in my post as a reply, even though I'm not actually responding to it.

It's to help make sure people actually read it. It's important.

Don't skip past it because you don't like being called out on it. It's your chance to grow as a person. Don't miss it.

-Sincerely, a transgendered person


Last edited by Kitsunelaine on Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ANN_Lynzee
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:07 pm Reply with quote
Building off Hope's post: it also insinuates that there's some kind of deception going on instead of a person merely presenting as they are most comfortable. That feeling of "deception" is usually the words that get flung around and excuses thrown out during violent outbursts by those who feel "tricked" and one does not have to go very far on the internet to be aware of the violence inflicted on transwomen by others.

So yeah, let's all enjoy the really great cosplay instead of throwing around loaded words about Miguel's choice to be Rinko Yamato.
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chito895



Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Posts: 512
Location: Lima, Peru
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:28 pm Reply with quote
I don't know if someone will care about this, but I'll say it anyway:

I offer my sincere apologies if I offended someone by using the word "trap". I didn't know it was so crappy as Hope said, and as the other moderators remarked.

I'm new here, and I didn't know that such a comment would create a lot of commentaries. I don't find it offensive, though, but that's my opinion.

The important thing is that those guys did a good cosplay, and that's all. I wish I could do that.
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Flaming Flame Flamester



Joined: 16 Apr 2015
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:29 pm Reply with quote
JesuOtaku wrote:
Hey guys!

Since there seems to be some confusion about it, here's why "trap" is a really crappy word and people are giving you stink-eye for tossing it around like it's hilarious. As if saying "trap" is just inherently funny or necessary to say over and over again, and adding any additional context for the label makes it any better.

First of all, "trap" originated on 4chan, from ye olde Star Wars Ackbar scene. The fact that it originated on 4chan might be enough of a red flag for some of you, but in case it's not for most of you, here's a very simple plain english breakdown for why women and LGBT folk see that word (and usually the context it's used in by the person who used it) and feel uncomfortable. This is specifically why it's a slur.

Calling a person a "trap" because they're a biological man in women's clothing is hurtful because by the word's very plain definition, you are reducing that person to a position of "sexual object if woman, mistake/problem for me if not." The implication is that by looking like an attractive woman, (it is only ever used for men who "pass," you may notice, no one ever uses "trap" for a clearly masculine man in a dress,) they are automatically a sexual option for you, that is their purpose, and if there's a dick under that skirt, you've been "tricked" and that's their fault. It's used as the punchline for a joke, but by cosplaying as a woman, in NO WAY did this guy invite your sexual advances or judgment, whether he's transgender or identifies as a man and just enjoys wearing women's clothing. It's especially not funny considering that the number of transwomen or drag performers that have been harassed or murdered because men thought they were women and decided to be violent when they discovered they weren't is really really depressingly high.

Either way, the word is gross, unfunny, punching down, and unkind not only to the man in women's clothing, but also betrays a diminishing attitude toward women: If a woman is pretty, that means she exists to be sexualized by you. If she's secretly a man, that's apparently both your business and your problem. That's what "trap" means, all of that in one crappy little syllable. It's hurtful and shitty. It won't be tolerated here. Hopefully, you can see where we're coming from. If not, you can take it somewhere else.


Before I start, I want to make this clear: I think it's entirely disgusting to call someone in real life a trap, that I agree entirely with you, it's a slur, and it's bigoted. However, trap in almost all circumstances refers to anime characters alone, and many of them aren't trying to look feminine, they just naturally look feminine. Kirito is one example, he's a guy, but his avatar in GGO looks feminine, however, he doesn't identify as a woman, or really want to dress like one. This situation is mostly played off for comedic effect, so people came up with a comedic response. I've never seen anyone refer to Hana from Tokyo Godfathers as a trap, because the situation in that movie is serious. Despite the comedic elements of the character, it's still portrayed in a serious manner, so people know not to use the term trap in reference to Hana, despite filling the qualifications for one.
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gloverrandal



Joined: 20 May 2014
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Location: Oita
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:37 pm Reply with quote
JesuOtaku wrote:
First of all, "trap" originated on 4chan, from ye olde Star Wars Ackbar scene. The fact that it originated on 4chan might be enough of a red flag for some of you, but in case it's not for most of you, here's a very simple plain english breakdown for why women and LGBT folk see that word (and usually the context it's used in by the person who used it) and feel uncomfortable. This is specifically why it's a slur.


I'm not sure if it's fair to speak for women and LGBT folk everywhere. I've seen the word used by women and LGBT folk all the time. It seems like only a portion of people view the issue as a slur.

I'm remember when someone took issue to XSEED using the word in one of their localization, despite trap being a pretty good translation for netkama. It was surprising and the first time I saw anyone take issue with the word. Luckily XSEED did not back down, though.


Last edited by gloverrandal on Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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JacobC
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:37 pm Reply with quote
chito895 wrote:
I don't know if someone will care about this, but I'll say it anyway:

I offer my sincere apologies if I offended someone by using the word "trap". I didn't know it was so crappy as Hope said, and as the other moderators remarked.

I'm new here, and I didn't know that such a comment would create a lot of commentaries. I don't find it offensive, though, but that's my opinion.

The important thing is that those guys did a good cosplay, and that's all. I wish I could do that.


Cool, dude. I'm glad I wrote that up, then. I wondered if maybe it was a waste of time to try and explain it, if people would care, but I'm glad it meant something to somebody.

Look, I get it. Personally, I was raised extremely sheltered and bigoted, with all sorts of crappy attitudes about pretty much everyone that was in any way different from me, and I never would have changed if no one had been willing to talk to me about the things I was saying and why they were hurtful, so that's just where I'm coming from. I know a lot of people toss that word around without thinking about what it means and without malice, just ignorance, and I'm glad I can clear the air for those people without making them feel attacked for a misunderstanding.

For those people not misunderstanding and just think it's super edgy or funny to use that word, knowing full well its connotation, you can take it and all your other favorite slurs somewhere else.

gloverrandal wrote:

I'm not sure if it's fair to speak for women and LGBT folk everywhere.


I never said I was. Nobody ever can. But the fact that you've seen women and LGBT people use the word at some points means nothing. I used to toss the word "feminazi" around when I was younger, thinking it meant something. Disenfranchised groups buy into systems of oppression all the time without realizing it, that's how those systems are maintained and propagated. Doesn't mean you can't try to set standards of protection up to fight them in whatever little ways you can, to create as inclusive an environment as possible.

EDIT: And yeah, I originally popped into this thread JUST to say that this cosplay is really super impressive, and I'm not easily blown away by cosplay but damn.


Last edited by JacobC on Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:41 pm; edited 3 times in total
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whiskeyii



Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 2242
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:38 pm Reply with quote
o_O Wow, the person in the middle is a dead ringer from one of my old high school friends; I almost thought it was her for a second!

It makes me laugh thinking how many takes the last picture must have taken. Like a literal ">3<" face. XDDD
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Mad_Scientist
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:42 pm Reply with quote
gloverrandal wrote:

I'm not sure if it's fair to speak for women and LGBT folk everywhere. I've seen the word used by women and LGBT folk all the time. It seems like only a portion of people view the issue as a slur.


And plenty of black people use the n word, and some don't care if white people use it either. That doesn't mean I'm going to ignore the wishes of all the black people who DO care just because some don't.

EDIT: Also, like Hope said, that's a great cosplay. I love the picture where they're eating, it's amazing.
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chito895



Joined: 22 Jan 2015
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:55 pm Reply with quote
Mad_Scientist wrote:


And plenty of black people use the n word, and some don't care if white people use it either. That doesn't mean I'm going to ignore the wishes of all the black people who DO care just because some don't.


I'm aware of that. I used that word on Twitter with a youtuber called Etika, and he ended following me, he even said "you guys are sweet". I use it too when talking with my bestfriend, and we don't have any problems. It all depends on how you say those kind of things, actually, but that's hard when we are just writing things in a forum/computer, and not talking face to face.

Quote:
EDIT: And yeah, I originally popped into this thread JUST to say that this cosplay is really super impressive, and I'm not easily blown away by cosplay but damn.


I think a lot of people will want to say the same things, but will end up finding a completely different discussion. :/
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Madoka...AYUKAWA!



Joined: 14 Jan 2015
Posts: 158
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:09 am Reply with quote
octopodpie wrote:
Madoka...AYUKAWA! and Kougeru:

I'm only going to say this once. Either enjoy the cosplay or don't, but referring to crossplay, or as one of you has decided to expand upon it, transsexual women as gross won't be tolerated, period.

For the rest, "trap" isn't acceptable slang either.


But get you facts straight to moderate. You first mention cossplay, then then bring up out of nowhere transexuality and then trap.

Just please dont put words in my mouth I did not make any rude comments to transexuality, homosexuality or about any sexual preferences or identities, and much less rude comments towards transsexual woman specifically.

If you wanna moderate the mention of "trap" as an offense here you have a lot of removing to do on the forums.


Last edited by Madoka...AYUKAWA! on Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:18 am; edited 2 times in total
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Kitsunelaine



Joined: 11 Dec 2012
Posts: 123
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:11 am Reply with quote
chito895 wrote:
It all depends on how you say those kind of things, actually, but that's hard when we are just writing things in a forum/computer, and not talking face to face.


Exept "Trap" is just wrong, period.

No excuse. There's no way you can use that word that isn't by nature dehumanizing. Period. Go and reread Hope's post. You missed the point.

Words mean things. And when you learn they mean things like Trap does, the correct response, if you respect transgendered people, is to stop using them. You don't get to twist the definition or use a "But context" defence. It's cowardly and disrespectful.

If you do choose to keep using the word in face of that knowledge, you deserve what you get for it.


Last edited by Kitsunelaine on Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:27 am; edited 5 times in total
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Stuart Smith



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Posts: 1298
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:14 am Reply with quote
Mad_Scientist wrote:
And plenty of black people use the n word, and some don't care if white people use it either. That doesn't mean I'm going to ignore the wishes of all the black people who DO care just because some don't.


Those two words aren't even remotely the same thing. One is a racially charged word with decades of history and hatred behind it to the point it was a factor of the Civil War and the other is just an issue of a small minority of people take issue with it on the internet, most of whom don't even partake in the practice. If 'trap' is suddenly a slur now, then I wonder if other popular anime/manga lexicon words like okama will become considered one as well in the near future. I wonder if Funimation will get any heat once they get to the Ivankov episodes of One Piece, assuming they haven't gotten there already as I don't follow the dub. Would be interesting if they get picked on though or have to change things.

Though personally the idea of this being an issue in the anime and manga community seems a little quaint considering all the subject matter out there, crossdressing and crossplay being a huge one. Though if you want to be REALLY technical, then going off that reasoning 'crossplay' or even the word 'crossdressing' should be frowned upon as it implies they're dressing abnormally for their gender and it's not a normal state of dress for them.

-Stuart Smith
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