Forum - View topicMaria the Virgin Witch (TV).
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Rogueywon
Posts: 264 |
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Sigh. And episode 9 was doing so well. For most of its length, there was much more graceful direction than last week, spoiler[with the scene with Martha throwing the stone in particular having a lot of the emotional weight that was missing from her sickbed scene in episode 9.] And the scenes that people had been... "anticipating" (near the start of the episode) - spoiler[while they didn't play out as most had been anticipating, they did have a real gut-punch impact to them.]
Unfortunately, it threw it all away as far as I'm concerned with the final quarter of the episode. spoiler[The conversation between Maria and Bernard was one of the most forced and unconvincing I've seen in anime for a long time. Maria was putting forward very basic arguments on god's agency in the world (or lack thereof) that should absolutely not have provoked the kind of personal crisis that Bernard went through. A badly written scene that fumbled and introduced unintentional farce into a key moment.] |
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jroa
Posts: 546 |
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On the contrary, I'd tend to disagree on both counts. I believe there's always been a small degree of camp to Bernard's portrayal and particularly concerning his inability to truly comprehend Maria's behavior. It doesn't bother me, considering the show's always had a dual nature rather than being completely serious and dry. That being the case, I didn't interpret the scene as spoiler[ an actual personal crisis on his part] but more as spoiler[him simply getting into an intellectual/philosophical game where he got too caught up arguing against himself (in other words, he was taking Maria's words and contrasting/comparing them with various doctrines, theological or otherwise). Some characters tend to do that. The man didn't lose his own beliefs, not at all, but simply overreacted to a realization he had while trying to understand Maria's way of thinking. In the end though, he recovered his composure and moved on. As far as he's concerned, that's all. ] |
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Rogueywon
Posts: 264 |
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Oh, certainly there's been a bit of camp to how he was portrayed. spoiler[But what I saw in those final scenes of episode 9 wasn't camp; it was a failed attempt at genuine drama. I take the point about the show's dual nature, but this wasn't a case of flipping between "serious" and "funny". There was nothing "funny" in the scene, nor did I get the impression there was supposed to be.]
spoiler[I'd be more convinced by this if anything Maria said during the conversation was original or novel. Instead, she came out with a few well-worn platitudes that anybody with any degree of theological knowledge should have been able to brush aside without blinking. Even as an atheist who spent his final year of his (very Catholic) high-school arguing with his teachers who were horrified by his new-found atheism, I found Maria's arguments against Christianity frankly embarrassing. That they were apparently taken so seriously by Bernard is just not credible within the show's context.] |
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jroa
Posts: 546 |
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I guess we will have to disagree, for I found the actual drama the story is going for was already concentrated in the earlier parts of the episode, and not in that particular location. spoiler[ Evidently, Maria is still in potentially mortal danger, of course, but not because of anything Bernard was saying during the visit. That was more of a sign of his own personal curiosity than any decisive moment when it comes to deciding her fate. In my opinion, that's no more harmful than the scene where he had briefly flipped out after learning the witch was as pure as the Virgin Mary. Thus there's no harm in saying "yeah, this guy is kind of slightly crazy in some of his reactions" and leaving it at that.]
Depends on how we look at the situation in context. Not all men (or women) are created equal and I fear the comparative tolerance and sophistication of modern times may have colored your expectations. Rather than having to be completely "original" in the grand scheme of things, it's merely something highly unusual in the eyes of someone who has probably lived a sheltered life and never had his beliefs opposed so directly by the actions of a witch and what she represents. spoiler[Her words are an extension of her actions, in practice, so she didn't have to come up with some sort of complicated argument. Especially when Bernard was picking up the ball and running with it, so to speak, and therefore Maria suddenly quoting Church fathers or various philosophers would be out of character. In other words, it's just something that Bernard took the wrong way because of how he thinks.]
Which in turn is something I'd use to point out that sort of contemporary intellectual and/or educational environment isn't what the show is depicting. spoiler[Not to mention that Maria isn't really trying to philosophically prove the futility of Christianity in a debate but just put up a token defense of her own actions while sitting in a prison cell and talking to someone she dislikes.] |
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Rogueywon
Posts: 264 |
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All of which would be fine - except Bernard is an educated man, as shown by the number of theologians he quotes during that absurd little monologue of his. But I'd agree that the rest of the episode was fine - indeed very good in places. The sad thing is that it didn't really even seem to need that scene at the end which annoyed me so much. I think that's emerging for me as one of the weaknesses of this show (which remains good overall) - it's trying to cram too much into a 1-cour running length, when it would be better focusing at times on a smaller number of threads and scenes - taking more time over them to do them well. The best 1-cour shows (comedies excluded) are the ones which have brutal self-discipline and don't allow themselves to get distracted with threads they don't have time to do justice to. |
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justsomeaccount
 Posts: 471 |
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I also found weird the argument between Maria and Bernard and Bernard's over the topness there. While I was watching I thought it was bad, like bad breakdown scene for Bernard with very simple-minded arguments, but then with the last seconds I don't even know if that was supposed to be just a simple philosophical discussion for him, finding a new respect for her (that it looks it's going to translate into something depravated by his part) or really mind-blowing for him. It's too weird that I don't even know if it's good or not, I guess we'll have to see the future consequences to determine the exact purpose, but so far I'll say it wasn't very satisfying.
Well, fortunately the (almost) rape scene was tastefully portrayed, not trying to fetishize it with off-putting angles or something, although it felt very very forced that all the familiars went out just in time Galfa could do it. What I'm not clear is, is Maria pretending not to have powers, is because of the shock of almost losing them that she can't use them, did Galfa know that when he did that to her and said "I only wanted to take her magic, not having sex with her"? Did Galfa do something else that is not raping her to null a little bit her powers (remember the forest decaying, so something happened)? It's not clear. |
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Rogueywon
Posts: 264 |
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spoiler[People keep referring to that prosthetic of Galfa's in a way that makes me think it's more than just a prosthetic. Perhaps it's some form of kryptonite or something? Disappointing if true (wouldn't fit with the show's internal logic). Some form of psychological block preventing Maria from using her magic following the shock of the attack would make more sense as an explanation in narrative terms.] |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18420 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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I'm curious to see Gabriella's interpretation will be on this, but I suspect what probably happened was that spoiler[Galfa used a finger on that hand to break her hymen, which has long been the traditional physical sign of virginity (especially in older cultures). Thus she remains symbolically pure (which is why she hasn't completely lost her powers) but not physically intact (which is why she doesn't currently have access to them).]
I also agree that the final scene wasn't being played for camp. As much of a bastard as he is, Bernard has also consistently been portrayed as a philosophical soul, and he is definitely seeking to understand Maria; he finds her behavior to be a complete contradiction of what he understands about witches, after all. spoiler[That he would want to puzzle out if there was any merit to what she was saying, rather than just flatly rejecting it,] absolutely makes sense in that context. And I absolutely love that spoiler[he picked up on Maria trying to make things easier on Martha and her family by effectively giving her permission in the rock-throwing incident, and that Maria completely understood the situation without needing any prompting.] In all, I really liked how the episode was handled. |
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jroa
Posts: 546 |
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That's my current interpretation of her behavior, more or less, adding in the self-doubt she experienced last episode and perhaps not wanting to put Ann's village in additional danger now that the Church is on the offensive, so to speak. It also ties into her brief interaction with Martha this episode too. They could use another explanation, of course, but until proven otherwise...I'll go with that.
That's...not impossible, but I'd prefer they don't elaborate on the details and leave the implication up for debate. In any case, we don't know for sure.
I wouldn't say it's exclusively camp as the sequence did serve more than one purpose, but I do think there have been enough elements of satire in the series so far. I don't disagree with your interpretation of Bernard's interest in understanding Maria though, but it's precisely that and her being so out of his wavelength (if you want to put things in such a way) that leads him to make a few leaps too many in the process. |
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HaruhiToy
 Posts: 4118 |
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Why do I get confused from reading the above. If Maria's spoiler[hymen had been broken then the Church's doctor would conclude that Maria had lost her virginity,] regardless of whether she actually had or not. And the way I see it if it did go down that way then Maria would be spoiler[physically and actually pure, not symbolically pure. But not physically intact.] Her loss of power has I think more to do with the poison the assault used on her. spoiler[That was why they were concerned about her recovering. They know she was not raped.] Also, if that's what they wanted or still want spoiler[what is stopping them from having it done now?] She is in custody and totally helpless. |
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11577 |
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I thought the main purpose of the scene, aside from adding to the sense that Bernard is a raving lunatic, was spoiler[to cast him in a new light to Gilbert. What he overheard] is bound to have some repercussions.
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Yttrbio
 Posts: 3669 |
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That's the narrative purpose of the scene. But I think Bernard being a raving lunatic makes him a less interesting character, and makes the show as a whole less interesting as a result. This is one of those shows where having characters act like people, rather than caricatures, has gone a long way.
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Harleyquin
Posts: 2956 |
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I'm not sure what to make of Bernard's outburst myself, he's rehashing some very old arguments about the nature of faith which previous doctors and philosophers of the Church used to vex over, he quoted at least two individuals well known for their ruminations over the problem. The contrast between someone who has his head in the clouds and another with her feet on the ground is striking though.
As for the theory that spoiler[Maria's hymen is broken, it doesn't really make sense since her familiars are still able to maintain their alternate forms. Had she lost her powers completely they would have lost the ability to transform, it's not something so complicated as being both violated and pure at the same time. Probably the biggest rebuttal is Michael's intervention, if Maria had lost her powers then there is no reason why he would stop Eve from rushing to her aid if it was only just a fool's errand. ] |
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HaruhiToy
Posts: 4118 |
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I wouldn't argue with that, but I think we all know what was supposed to happen. Maria, spoiler[beaten, chained, near naked and helpless was supposed to guilelessly undermine Bernard's entire believe system in some way. Then the novice monk(s) were going to overhear his lack of faith and down the road they are going to denounce him] and he will end up in Maria's current position. They just didn't do it very well. Maria turned out to be no more rhetorically formidable than the average contemporary teenager. She didn't even articulate her own simplistic worldview very well. Editor: rewrite! |
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ChibiKangaroo
 Posts: 2941 |
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I think this is probably the exact type of analysis I would not want the show to set up. The spoiler["was it really rape, because he just penetrated her with a metal instrument rather than his penis?"] analysis. I don't really know what to say about it. It is a very bizarre and disturbing way for the show to handle that plot point. To be honest, I was fully expecting that someone would come in at the last second and save her before Galfa could do something. That's how these things are usually done. I still have reservations about shows using an attempted rape in the casual way it is often done, but at least that avoids the spoiler[uncomfortable debate about whether a girl's "purity" gets taken away or not depending on the instrument used by the rapist.] I don't really understand why the show would want to draw all of our focus onto that right now, as it feels like such a crude debate to have. spoiler[If they wanted to have some storyline about her "regaining her purity after being raped," as offensive as that might be to some people, they could do that without setting up this "was she really raped or not because of what he used" type of analysis.] It's just the type of stuff that leaves me shaking my head because I feel like the execution of this show has been particularly poor, even though the initial set-up was great. As for the Bernard part at the end, I agree - it felt very forced. We've never seen spoiler[him go into a psychotic break like that before. He has always seemed like a highly cunning and articulate villain, a very dastardly one, but certainly no raving lunatic. But here he suddenly seems to lose his mind for the final scene.] I understand what the show wanted to do, but again, the execution was just awful. About the only things I liked about this episode was the fact that Viv was shown spoiler[standing up to Michael on Maria's behalf, and the scene where Martha throws the stone at Maria]. Viv's gradually been made into a more sympathetic character over the last few episodes, which is good, and the part with Martha was raw and meaningful. |
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