Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! [2006-08-04]
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Mint Mania IIDX
 Posts: 77 Location: Central |
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Why do you assume that we don't?
Doesn't this contradict with the first, as most porn viewing is generalized with the reason of "because you can't get any IRL"? Also, you sound like you're 12 years old spelling out the word "losers" for me. Pretty immature, and I'm not saying that as a personal attack. I think everyone here can agree with that.
Illegal: There are government laws behind it. Immoral: There are personal beliefs behind it. Disgusting: This is an opinion. In logical debate, the last two things are basically thrown out, as they are purely emotionally driven. I'm not saying that rape and child porn are not these things, mind you. I'm just letting you know that someone could say that normal hentai is "immoral and disgusting", and I guarantee that some of the people in this thread who look at hentai would probably fight that. I don't see how lolicon is really all that different in that sense. In fact, aren't all forms of pornography considered by a lot of people as "immoral and disgusting"? Wasn't GTA: San Andreas considered "immoral and disgusting"? Wasn't rock and roll considered "immoral and disgusting"? I will reiterate: It's not the material, it's the person. In fact, I read a very interesting quote on another forum on a completely unrelated topic that I think could be useful here: "People who spend a lot of time in reality have no problems distinguishing it from fantasy." A lot of us lolicon "enthusiasts" have social lives, possibly jobs, maybe even emotional attachments in the form of relationships. We know the difference between a little girl of age 10 and a little anime girl that looks like she could be 10. In our minds, there is a significant difference, and we know that the line between them is something that is not to be crossed. We just have a different hentai preference. Can we honestly be blamed for liking something, be it loli, guro, furry, or anything else? It's just a stupid drawing on our computer screens. As long as you don't thrive on the damn thing and NEED lolicon to cope with life like it's some sort of narcotic, I fail to see how it's problematic as something by itself. Too much of anything is never good. |
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burzmali
Posts: 143 |
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['Insert comment about the insatiable appetite of lolicon fanboys']
Fine, Section 1466A states the law in regards lolicon (as re-enforced with Whorley's conviction). If it is illegal does that change the debate about whether or not a viewer is sick to watch it?
Can a spree killer really be blamed for liking to kill? |
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ThirdWizard
 Posts: 42 |
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The logic is sound, but that doesn't make it necessarily true. It does warrant further study, however, and careful watching in the meantime. But, does that mean we should ban Negima like Zac says? Everyone seems to be carefully avoiding that subject, so I have to wonder... |
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Kilgamayan
 Posts: 275 Location: Location, Location. |
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Yes, because killing is against the law. |
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Dargonxtc
 Posts: 4463 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
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When did Zac ever say he wanted Negima banned? You guys lost the point of what was the matter at hand ten pages ago. |
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ThirdWizard
Posts: 42 |
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Okay not banned. He just wants it to go away completely, with nobody picking it up, making it, or endorsing it, so I'll retract that statement and appologise. And the point? I'm just looking out for my own interests. I think Moon Phase is harmless. I want to know if others disagree. I think its got a cool plot, and while I admit it isn't anything fantastic, its a fun series. The implication is that people don't want stuff like Higurashi no Naku Koro ni around, and since I don't watch it for any kind of pedophillic impulse, I'm kind of offended in the implication that that would be the main reason to watch it. See, I asked about this a while back to find out, and no one responded. My only explaination is that people do think its wrong and that they just aren't answering because they don't have a leg to stand on, debate wise. But, I could be wrong. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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You're really stretching here. I never said that about Negima. I said I'd rather they didn't manufacture or endorse Lolicon shows. I've seen Negima, it's pretty harmless. The girls don't look like they're 8 years old, and at least in the anime, there's really not a lot of fanservice, just a handful of lame suggestive jokes. Harem comedies like Negima are basically never going to go away, and they're an accepted staple. What I wish they'd stop doing is making shows like Strawberry Marshmallow and marketing them to college-aged males and airing them at 1:30 AM. It's pretty obvious who that's supposed to appeal to. If they aired it at 7:00 AM and aimed it at little girls, there wouldn't be such a massive image problem. As for lolicon porn? Yeah, I wish that would go away completely (or at the very least, the people who shout from the rooftops about how hot 8-year old anime girls are would shut up and go back underground where they belong). But that probably won't happen. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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There's no getting around the stigma that watching something like Higurashi no whatever means you're attracted to little girls. That's who the show is aimed at, that's what they're selling it on, that's who it's for. That you get no sexual satisfaction from watching it is something you're going to have to convince people of, and that's just the way it goes. It's like saying "Well I really enjoy watching this Godzilla movie, but I'm not watching it for the giant monsters. No, really! I swear!". It might be true but good luck convincing people of that. In terms of "wanting shows like that to go away", they're a symptom of a larger problem and if I had to choose between not having shows like Higurashi around and being labelled a pedophile by the media for watching anime, I'd choose the former. |
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ThirdWizard
Posts: 42 |
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Saying Higurashi is selling itself on loli-con just isn't accurate. It's selling itself on horror, mystery, and other thriller-eque qualities that make up most of the good suspense-horror genre. (edit: Horror using scary little kids is nothing new after all.)
What you're saying is that any show in which children are the main characters that is aimed at adults is going to be loli-con stuff, and there's just no way I can see how that argument holds up on examination. Do you actually believe that or are you more concerning with the general public's view of the show? What about the two little girls in xxxHolic? |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Higurashi is selling itself mostly with little girls. Yeah, there's mystery and whatnot but most of the marketing materials highlight the lolicon girls in the show. You like it for the mystery and suspense, so you think that's what it's selling itself on, but that isn't really the case. You have to look at these things objectively. Just look at the marketing materials. Also, it's pretty obvious what the differences are between shows that simply have characters in them that are little girls and shows that spotlight little girls and put them in situations where they are easily sexualized. If you make a show about 5-year old girls in skimpy clothes who do "cute" things, air it at 1:30 in the morning and aim it at college males, that's lolicon bait. If the cast of your show is primarily girls who look like they're under 10 and it's targeted at college-aged males, that's lolicon bait. This isn't rocket science. And yes, I am vastly more concerned about the public's perception of this issue than I am about any other facet of it. |
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ThirdWizard
Posts: 42 |
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For the record, I've never seen Negima, so I shouldn't have brought that up.
Unfortunately, their marketing material isn't available to me. I'm going mostly on what I see on online forums. There's a great forum I can't link to here, but it has tons and tons of discussions about trying to unpiece the series to figure out what's going on. That's why it was made, after all, and why it follows the very odd chapter structure. It's made to be examined and dissected. There's even an image thread on that message board, and while there are a few sexialized images, the majority are normal or creepy stuff, images from the video game, wallpapers, that kind of thing from what I've seen (I'm deathly scared of seeing spoilers there, so I visit rarely). I've also never accidently stumbled on hentai for the show, which I think is saying something considering what happened last time I tried to look up stuff on Ouran High School Host Club.
Which Higurashi does not really do... they're mostly creepy, with demon eyes and saying "transferred out" and other curiously weird-killer type behavior.
Do you consider threatening, killing, torturing, etc to be "cute" things? I mean, there are lighthearted places to accentuate the horror later. When they have a picnic and all have fun together, it really makes it worse when they later put a needle in his rice ball, for example.
Will loli-cons watch it? Yes. hat isn't to say that those are their primary audiance, nor is it to say that they chose for the girls to look young simply to draw in the loli-con crowd.
Thanks for clearing that up for me. |
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burzmali
Posts: 143 |
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Well, that sucks don't it. "To kill" qualifies as "anything else", hence the answer to the orginial question (Can we honestly be blamed for liking something, be it loli, guro, furry, or anything else?) is yes. Therefore that defense doesn't hold water either. Two justifications down, God knows how many left to go. And by the way, possession of lolicon is against the law too, per Section 1466A(b). Guro and furry might break Section 1466(b), but that requires a higher burden of proof. |
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Kamui4356
 Posts: 10 |
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He was not convicted solely for possessing lolicon material. He also had real child porn and was a convicted sex offender in violation of his parole. As I said in the last thread, the law has never, to my knowledge, been tested. No one has been tried based solely on possession of lolicon. Until that happens, the law cannot be said to have been reinforced.
Stop lumping moe in with lolicon. If you see anything wrong with Ichigo Mashimaro, I have to assume it's your mind that's screwed up. I'm a big fan of the series, and not because I'm attracted to little girls. It's a sweet, innocent series, and I actually find it funny. That doesn't mean I'm attracted to the character in a sexual way. I'd be horrified if I saw a doujinshi with the im girls being shown in a sexual way. Higurashi is about the lolis? Have you ever seen it? They're used in marketing material because it attracts the attention of otaku. That doesn't mean the series focuses on it to attract pedophiles. I find it ironic that "mainstream fans" are so concerned about lolicon causing anime to be associated with child porn, when they do the exact same thing to moe series. edit: Yes, one could point out that the Ichigo Mashimaro manga has panty shots, but I've yet to read it. Plus it's clear Zac was talking about the anime. |
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Mint Mania IIDX
Posts: 77 Location: Central |
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Oh my [expletive] god. You knew I was on the subject of hentai, and you STILL turned it into something completely unrelated like "killing" just to hear yourself be right about something. We're sick of it. Also, show me where it says I can't have a picture of a naked anime girl that doesn't have an age but looks young and doesn't look like any girl in reality on my hard drive. |
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Pleroma
 Posts: 443 Location: Eromanga island |
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No idea what promotional material you are looking at but most fo what I have seen involves the teenage Rena or Mion looking either really cute or really scary. If the hype before it aired is anything to go by (and it is) the horror was the selling point from day 1, there is really no "loli-bait" to speak of as even the two loli characters are creepy as hell and non-sexualized.
Yes that is true, and ditto for say Nanoha. But if the local distribuitors CAN market a show for a different crowd then whats the harm? I know a lot of people enjoy Ichigo Mashimaro from little girls who like the cutenes or can relate to it or whatever to someone like myself who likes the Azumanga-ish humor and has a weakness for "cute" (yes they are lolis, but thats not reason enough to watch a series imo) and would hate it if stuff like this got stuffed away in a closet somewhere in Japan. Just because it is aimed at a specific demographic doesn't mean that others can't enjoy it and they should be able to. You can argue the whole "keep it in Japan" point for stuff thats very blatantly sexual and would have little appeal for those not into loli, but not for things that can reach a wide and diverse audience despite their original target. |
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