Forum - View topicLocalisation.
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hentai4me
 Posts: 1313 Location: England. Robin is so Cute! |
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Well this is a relatively important topic and so lets give it a go shall we.
I understand and usually am glad of localisation, but I also know that some people really dislike the 'Americanisation' of anime. I'll admit that as long as a) the meaning(in the case of descriptions/discussions) isnt changed too drastically or b) the aim and effect of the lines arent changed(a joke should still be a joke, even if its not the original) then I am more than fine with what they change. as I am not very well informed of Japanese culture or language I can enjoy an anime far more if it has been 'westernised' than if left traditional and I expect this is true of most people. So I understand the pros of localisation but not really the cons that some people go on about as 'ruining' the title. True sometimes it goes too far but thats usually quite rare. |
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beast
 Posts: 102 Location: High Ground |
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I could list a con:
For some people, not as close as possible to the original = a contra. I for one would rather have a cultural joke literally translated/explained, learn about something cultural in the process and not laugh, than giggle because of an "invented" joke aimed at the US audience. I could just as well watch Family Guy, Southpark or Simpsons if all I wanted is to be entertained. |
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Azathrael
 Posts: 745 |
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I'm not in favor of localization so I'll just quickly mention a con.
I know that it's not possible to explain every cultural joke that's specific to Japanese. I know fansubs try to by adding an explanation before an episode but obviously that won't be happening in DVD's. But to translate the joke so that it fits the taste of Americans (your "Americanization") sometimes end up insulting anime. For example, there could be a scene in an anime where a cultural reference is used by a character to tell a joke. The "Americanization" then would make this joke out of some completely unrelated reference and end up taking away the original meaning of the scene. Ok, that was a bad example. I can't remember any specific scene of a specific anime to provide as an example. So instead, how about a TV show? Recently, I watched a show called MXC. It's a Japanese comedy program that's been dubbed - completely Americanized. What the Japanese participants of the show say and what the English dubbed voices say are completely different - It's like listening to the radio while watching a movie muted. Now, this is the most extreme case where it's completely localized - but I can just as easily take this case and say it's the same for the one scene of an anime where it's localized. It's the same concept at a different scale. |
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beast
Posts: 102 Location: High Ground |
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Another example:
Let's say an anime character makes a pun in the Japanese version. Enter localization: since the original pun wouldn't be funny and wouldn't make sense in English, the American company tries to replace the pun with an English pun, an English saying, or an newly invented joke in order to cater to your average anime joe. More often than not, this procedure isn't limited to the dub and makes it way to the sub too. Result: something is lost in translation. Now you can argue a) that you don't care, all you want is to be entertained (which, to me, is kind of shallow and ignorant attitude) b) that the American company has to do this in order to make money (which, to me, is reasoning that values monetary gain more than the original message/vision/intention of the anime). These are legit and reasonable arguments since a) simple-minded, shallow and ignorant people do exist - can't do anything about it and b) the American company has paid a lot of money for the license, so it makes sense to make as much money as possible in return. Also, the Japanese anime industry can now use this money to produce more anime etc. But I don't respect these arguments, because the original message/vision/intention of a work is paramount to me. I don't care for economical reasons. And this is exactly why I prefer a fansub with lots of additional explanation and information to even an official and professional DVD. |
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Greennunu
Posts: 145 |
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Well, it's not so much the Americanization, that gets me, but when a free source(Fansubbers) does a better job of translating and taking their time to explain things as far as cultural differences goes, and then I look at a retail anime price of 29.95, I somehow feel cheated when I buy the DvD.
I still buy DvDs en masses, and I usually watch Japanse/Eng Sub, but once you start learning japanese, you can tell the changes they made in translation, usually like hentai said it's very small, and they usually try and keep it as closesly related as possible. I think if we have to pay for it, they should at least put a bit more effort into it, seeing how they usually release 3-5 eps every 2 months. I think it was in Fruits Basket(boot legged that I had) where there were 2 types of Eng subtitle one was more closely reltaed to the actual Japanese - English Translation, and the other was what the Dubbers were actually saying. If these DvDs had that feature I wouldn't mind dishing out the dough at all. ATM, there is really no real reason(other than the normal legal stuff) for me to buy a DvD for 20bux, when a fan subber who gets paid probably nothing for aubbing the anime does a better job of subbing it, they translate songs for you with Kanji/Kana, English, and Romaji, explain less known culutral jokes, phrases, and scenes. |
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cerealkilllerr
 Posts: 21 |
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maybe the translations are not so much cultural as they are intellectual. one thing i thought of was that the American media has transformed the average television viewer into a braindead couch-potato. TV nowadays in America HAS to have certain criteria in order to stay on air (e.g. sex drugs violence). Americans dont want a good story or something that will basically make them actually think. take a look at the current popular anime in America: action shows - shows that can be translated because there's not much subtext; just violence, violence, and some cleavage thrown in for kicks.the average American doesnt want to learn something multi-cultural (if he can't understand it, then "screw it; why bother learning something when i can just change the channel?") i think that the reason why the lines are changed is not because of the cultural differences, but that Americans are too stuck in our ways to open our minds to something that may be confusing.
(example: one of my best friends will not watch kung-fu movies if they have english subtitles) that used to be me. i am an American, and i can remember the first time i watched FLCL. i HATED it. i thought it was the stupidest show i had ever seen. 2 years later, 2 years wiser, i am now 19 and FLCL comes on [adultswim] again. i watched it and absolutely loved it, simply because i had learned a few things about Japan and its culture. now, i am a lot more open about different anime's i watch. (i am a 19 year old guy and i just finished watching the whole Fruits Basket series, and liked it) |
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Kouji
 Posts: 978 |
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I can understand the dubbing companies' reasons for Americanization, but I don't agree with it at all. I think it's important to preserve the Japanese culture as much as possible in order to preserve the original essence of the show. I don't see why things like Japanese humor should have to be Americanized just because some people won't understand it. If you're watching a Japanese show and don't like it because you don't understand the Japanese culture, then either actually LEARN about Japanese culture yourself or simply don't watch it. Parents are always complaining about how cartoons aren't educational enough for kids, so why don't the dubbing companies that practice Americanization take this opportunity to be educational by teaching kids about Japanese culture through anime? If Dora The Explorer can be popular on Nick Jr., surely anime dubs can leave in Japanese culture.
One thing I don't understand about why dubbing companies Americanize anime is why do they act like they actually have proof that Amercanization is abosuletly neccessary when they dub an anime? I have yet to see a single anime dubbed for Saturday mornings that did poorly because Japanese culture was left in, so how do they know that kids won't like an anime if there's Japanese culture left in if they've never even tried? Now if 4Kids were to dub a widely popular anime show, air it on Saturday mornings at a reasonable timeslot, actually leave in Japanese culture, and THEN the show did poorly, I might be more inclined to believe them, but they haven't yet. In fact, I've seen the exact opposite happen. 4Kids dubbed One Piece, a widely popular anime, aired it at a reasonable Saturday morning timeslot, Americanized it to death because the show wouldn't sell if Japanese culture was left in the dub, and the show DID POORLY. In fact, the One Piece dub is doing so badly on 4Kids TV that the rest of the show has to finish up on Toonami because the ratings were so poor on 4Kids TV. Another example is Cardcaptors. Nelvana completely Americanized Cardcaptor Sakura, believing that it was neccessary before the show could make a success in the U.S., but the dub-only Cardcaptors DVDs did so poorly that Geneon had to discontinue them yet their uncut JAPANESE Cardcaptor Sakura DVDs were outselling the dub-only DVDs. Meanwhile, some of the most popular anime among American kids are action-oriented shows whose dubs do leave in Japanese culture elements, like Rurouni Kenshin, Inuyasha, and Naruto. Another thing I hate about Americanization is that it's a form of racism. While the dubbing companies may not be directly expressing themselves as being racists towards the Japanese, they are creating this false image that "Kids don't like Japanese cartoons if there's any Japanese left in because they don't like anything Japanese, so let's pretend Japan doesn't exist and take out anything Japanese." A girl at the 4Kids forums tried to claim that Tokyo Mew Mew wasn't produced in Japan after all, but was actually produced in California instead. Now, if 4Kids had dubbed Tokyo Mew Mew with the Japanese culture of the show left in, do you think that girl would have still made that mistake? Obiviously, Americanization is not abosuletly neccessary for an anime to sell in the U.S. Would Azumanga Daioh be nearly as funny if they Americanized all the dialog? |
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CyberViper
Posts: 218 Location: Matsumoto, Nagano Japan |
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Here is a very important con to not only westernization, but also just titles that have been translated:
The suffixes to names don't carry over in translation. "-kun, -chan, -sama, -sensei, - senpai, -san (or just the complete absence of a suffix)", are all very important in understanding one characters relationship to another. The way they address each other helps the veiwer understand the relationship better and what they characters think of each other. That isn't really localization, but it's a con with tranlasting... As far as localisation goes: I don't really mind that much, because I think most of the time a joke stays a joke, even though it was originally a cultural joke or pun, which wouldn't be understood by a the large majority of a non-japanese audience. Of course, you'd still laugh since it was a joke, but the cleverness is just taken out of it. The only thing that bothers me, is when the plot takes place in another place...like America or England, yet everyone in the anime is speaking Japanese. I mean...I know, it can't be helped! It's part of the story and it's an anime so, yes, they'd speak Japanese. But it always makes me think "Something just really doesn't work here..." Anyway, that's my take on all this. |
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shadow_guyver
 Posts: 307 Location: Tokyo, Japan |
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Okay, I think I see a misconception here.
It's not that anime companies think Japanese culture will cause a show to fail, it's that they believe Americanizing it will broaden the appeal, and thus make it a bigger success than it would have been without the changes. |
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Vortextk
 Posts: 892 Location: Orlando, Fl |
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Thank you for some common sense... Sure on a message board dedicated to anime, everyone is up in arms about "americanizing" a show. Let's take FMP for an example. Kaname, in an episode about free summers and good times, mentioned the beach boys. I thought nothing of it, it made sense to me.(Dubbed) Now, when I was reading the official site of the licensed dvd's, they explained that actually, in the original Japanese she mentions another song. I don't know the song, it doesn't mean anything to me, so they changed it so it DOES mean something to me. What's wrong with that?(Though they did go into a good amount of detail of why the change and what the song originally meant etc, nice touch) Now, to be fair, companies should change it in the dub, not in the subtitles, and maybe have booklets that summarize things "japanese" that happen in the show which they had to change. Every "otaku" believes Japan is wonderful and so is everything japanese. If we change anything from Japan, it's bad because we're American(atleast we as in most places the license anime). It's a television show. Say what you want about anime, if someone doesn't understand something they won't care about it. I truly like when a fansub group explains a lot of things, but it remains that people don't NEED to know Japanese culture to like anime. People can look into it if they want, but it's stupid to say "you can't like anime without exploring Japanese culture along with it." And please, MXC? That show is not americanized, that show is making FUN of the contestants AND the show. It's like a fandubbing of a show where all they do is make stupid jokes about the characters and the show. That is not americanization where the goal is to "help understand". It doesn't belong in this thread at all. |
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6897 Location: Kazune City |
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First off, let's leave Ghost Stories out of this, OK?
I guess I'm in favor of localization / localisation if it changes things that non-Japanese viewers wouldn't have a hope of understanding, like obscure references to old shows, celebrities, politicians, etc. Puns are generally okay to change, since English is diverse enough that talented writers can find an appropriate joke. I understand that R1 DVDs don't want to fill the screen with extra notes in shows like Kodocha, where the jokes come flying in 1 km per minute. Sometimes they do provide explanations, like in Nadesico when a character says of the ship's computer, like "I don't care if it calls itself Omoikane (heavy bell) or Karuikane (light bell)!" In the dub, this becomes, "I don't care if it calls itself 'Little Orphan Annie'!" which is funny enough. Sometimes, a little straying from the literal meaning takes place, like in FMP? Fumoffu, episode 8, where Tessa says that getting wet is her business--she really says "I'm a person of the water trade," with "water trade" being a euphenism for the porn/adult entertainment industry in Japan. (I had to convince somebody on another forum that she really was talking about porn, and that I wasn't ignorant about the mechanics of sex in the process of explicating the joke.) Other localizations I've seen are minor changes to make things more accessible, like converting to English/American measurement units instead of using the metric system--I think this happens in episode 12 of Love Hina when Keitarou and Motoko are talking about height, where the dub uses standard units and the subtitles have metric units with parenthetical asides. However, I don't really like "de-culturization" and eliminating things completely; I mean, let's call a spade a spade and a kimono a kimono, not a dress. Why change yen amounts to dollars when we know that a show takes place in Japan? Also, I know that they'll usually eliminate name suffixes, but if a character calls someone else by their last name, at least leave the last name in the subtitles. It's not like calling people by last name only is completely foreign to Western audiences, as it sometimes happens in the military/private schools/workplaces, or at least I think it does. Funimation has started including suffixes in subtitles with series like Fruits Basket and Kodocha, and I don't see why other companies don't want to do the same...with fansubs being extremely available, you know that many more people understand the honorific system than they did 10 years ago. I guess my ideals for R1 DVDs are something like this: 1) Change major things that won't be comprehensible to American audiences, if explanation would be too cumbersome. Even so, it's still nice to add translation notes in the liner notes DVD extras for all the curious fans out there. 2) Tweak minor things that don't affect the action to make things more accessible. 3) Leave things that fall between these extremes as they are, since many things can be understood from context even if they seem like foreign terms at first. Besides, most people know words like kimono, sensei, and so forth. My final complaint: I do think it represents a good step forward to see some of the name suffixes/other titles left in dubs, which does happen (Planetes, Please Twins!, Ai yori aoshi, Angelic Layer), but if you're going to have them in the dub, then make sure they're pronounced right. I did some spot-listening to the Nuku Nuku TV dub, and it's decent, but Nuku Nuku calls Noriko "Noriko-chan." The problem: they pronounce "chan" with the "a" rhyming with "and," though it's supposed to sound like the "a" of "father."  I think some of these VAs need phonetics classes, and if anybody from ADV reads this (yeah right!), I have some experience in the field, and will teach it for the low low price of $1,116.73 plus travel expenses  
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Azathrael
Posts: 745 |
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Isn't that two ways of saying the same thing? One's just more "positive" while the other's a little more "negative". If you put those two ways together: "US anime companies believe including Japanese culture (which the average American is not familiar with) will cause a show to fail (or lose popularity) so they Americanize it to attract more ("the average") Americans who enjoy anime but are not familiar with Japanese culture (and thus increasing profits)" Deshou? ^__^ One of the things that bother me about localization is that if it's Japanese anime that includes Japanese culture, then they should have the right to decide whether to keep it there or not (and not have the US anime companies decide). Japanese culture is, if not a major a part of, Japanese anime. Taking that away "degrades" anime in the sense that it's taking away one of the sources from which it's called "anime". For me, that would mean that I would presuppose for anyone who's interested in anime to be also interested in Japanese culture as well - interested enough to prefer learning the Japanese culture through anime instead of preferring it Americanized. I don't think it's wrong to prefer your own country's jokes and humor, but I do think it's wrong to look for it (or prefer it) from some other country's source of entertainment. |
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Jabberwock
 Posts: 92 Location: Currently attending the University of Florida |
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I am pro-localization. I watch anime so it will entertain me, not so I can get a lesson in Japanese culture. If I wanted to learn about Japanese Culture I would go read a book titled as such. I don't need useless suffixes and/or comments/jokes concerning things that I will have no clue about from Japan. The purists may cry foul at their precious anime being altered as they always do, but I for one am glad the American companies make it more relatable to us majority of American fans. For if we were not the majority, they would not localize it. Other than that, for not wanting to repeat more of what has already been said, I pretty much agree with what Zalis116 said.
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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I'm in favor of localization in most cases, provided the story remains intact. While the purists and hardcore fans are up in arms because obscure references are altered to allow for references that make sense to the culture it's being dubbed the majority of casual or average fans prefer it that way. Frankly, I don't rely on anime to teach me about other cultures and I don't want to hear a joke that's meaningless just because it might teach me about some relatively meaningless cultural fact that will likely not hold much value outside of that reference.
These are translated shows, that means they get translated over for the language and culture of the viewer while the viewer is still given the option for the original if they desire so the whole argument is pretty pointless anyways. With the option of the original given people still find it necessary to degrade and belittle those who aren't as "pure" in their fandom, it's really a rather sad and greedy display. I have nothing against suffixes and titles being left in the translation if it fits, but I don't miss them if they're translated either, but I do start to have a problem with people who demand they remain when the setting of the series doesn't warrant their usage outside of the language that relies on them. I don't think it's wrong to look for joke's and humor and a degree of cultural familiarity from a translated version of another countries entertainment. The core of the story remains the same, and if a novel I wrote made it to Japan and it was localized I wouldn't have a problem with that either simply because I want the audience to soak in the story. If the story remains true and the script is close to genuine then that's fine, if it isn't for you then watch the sub, you're given a choice so stop trying to rule over those that chose the other way. |
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shadow_guyver
Posts: 307 Location: Tokyo, Japan |
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I see what you're saying Azathrael, but it is different.
The misconception is that the companies believe not Americanizing a show will cause it to fail, and maybe lose money, so they must Americanize. What I'm saying is that they have no such belief. They probably realize that they could leave it as is and still have a success, but the companies believe that by Americanizing, and broadening the appeal to people that have no interest in having to learn a foreign culture in order to fully understand whats going on, they can have a bigger success. See the difference yet? They don't think they have to change it to make it a success, they just want it to be as big a success as possible. At the end of the day, anime companies are businesses trying to make a profit. |
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