Forum - View topicShakugan no Shana (TV) (all seasons + movie).
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Mad_Scientist
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 3011 |
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Eh, not too familiar with the various fansubs since I've been using the official nico nico subs for the most part. But on the anime suki forum there was some discussion about a fansub for the final episode that had multiple errors, spoiler[such as saying that Yuji becomes a human at the end, when in fact he becomes a unique existence that is not a torch but certainly not human.]
They didn't mention names of the subs though. EDIT: Ok, I've seen the translation MaxSouth was using I think, and it was the one that apparently contains a lot of errors. But even ignoring that, the implication I got from the context of Yuji's words wasn't that spoiler[the "Law doesn't work for some reason that is never explained, and we're just going to throw this out there randomly" but rather, that the Denizens have been consuming humans for so long that there simply being a rule that bans them from doing so isn't enough for true co-existence.] |
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Ferian
 Posts: 162 |
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Dear MaxSouth, what part in the words "time stamp" do you fail to understand?
Also, MadScientist has just explained what Yuuju was actually talking about. Furthermore, you are taking Denizens for a uniform mass with a singular will when, in fact, there are most diverging opinions among them. spoiler[There are those that have grown attached to humans but there are also those who will continue preying on them simply for fun of it, rule or not (to elaborate, because I gather you are prone to misunderstand this part unless I do, I am not talking about devouring humans as they had in this world - that is impossible in Xanadu - but simply hunting/killing - after all, Denizens remain superior predators with supernatural abilities).]
I suppose you are talking from personal experience. 
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Ikari1
 Posts: 531 Location: London |
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The rule is still there. spoiler[Shana asks Yuji wether or not he really had to go to Xanadu and wether or not the rule wasnt good enough for him on it's own. She wouldn't say that if it had been negated. Start watching from 14;00 onwards. The question is however, wether or not the rule is absolute and stops Denizens from eating humans or wether or not it is just a rule and there to be broken.
Personally I think the former since the series seems to place empahsis on the relationship between Human and denizens/flame hazes rather than the fact that they eat them. The aim is to get them living with each other peacefully. Justus represents this dream quite litterally, being the child of a human and Denizen. Shana still seems to think that the rule is there so yeah it probably is to be honest. Even if it isn't the denizens are said to be of one mind on the whole when it comes to wanting to live with humans peacefully. That's pretty much the whole point when you consider Sabrac.Shana,Pheles and Margery's relationship focuses over the course of the seasons. They are all emotionally involved with humans in some way. The development of Hecate throughout the season points to this being the focus and the end of this season pretty much says ' It's not set in stone but pretty damn close', when it comes to resolving the issue between humans and tomogara. The will to live with humans is there, they just need to be shown how. This is where yuji,Shana and Justus come in with the new world. Lead by example and all that. Basically I agree with Ferian and mad Scientist in his/her understanding of the show. Basically the rule is there but that the rift between Flame hazes,humans and denizens isnt something that is just going to go away all at once. There will still be some denizens that stay behind and there will still be some Denizens that cant work out how live peacefully. The only plot hole here for me though that bugs me is the fact that Yuji chooses to leave behind his family easilly and how despite becoming human again, he still leaves. Having said this, he did show in either the first season or the second that he was always prepared to leave to make sure his home city stayed safe. This or the fact that Yoshida wont be in the new world  He was still flying around with his powers despite being human again aswell. I am a little confused on that point but it doesnt really bother me all that. .
It was quite sad in some regards with the way that everyone was split up.] The line in question is being looked in the wrong light in someways aswell. The line is basically being used to show that Yuji doesnt want to forgive himself and doesnt think that what he has done is enough when in reality he has done quite alot. He feels he needs to atone and punish himself and Shana and everyone else is pretty much telling him other wise. I felt that this line was more of an indication of how hard yuji is being on himself rather than some big revalation/plot hole. You have to read between the lines more maxsouth. As others have said the emphasis on what he said is more on the fact that he feels the rule wont be enough on it's own to coexisist peacefully with humans. They need to be told and taught aswell. |
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Ferian
Posts: 162 |
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No real plot hole there. spoiler[It wasn't said that he's become a human, only that he isn't a torch anymore. I believe Leanansidhe's spell has simply stabilized his existence. His family still won't remember him, and will continue to believe he has never existed in the first place.] |
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Mad_Scientist
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 3011 |
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Regarding translations, here's a post from the anime suki forums about the two sub versions out. They aren't mentioned by name (I'm not sure that's allowed on anime suki... actually, not sure we're really supposed to do that here either) but you should be able to tell which fansub you ended watching by this post.
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TarsTarkas
 Posts: 5836 Location: Virginia, United States |
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I disagree about giving Yuji a break. He wanted to change the world, and got many people killed to achieve his ends.
So what did we get out of all those deaths: spoiler[Shana is no safer than she was before. Our would may be a tad safer, because some denizens move to the new world. This new world doesn't seem like a paradise either, because the denizens really have nothing stopping them.] Humans in our world, really have a hard time maintaining sustainable fish harvesting levels, over fishing is a real problem. In the fictional world, even Vampires have problems with sustainable human harvests. The Vegans and PETA really have had no success in changing us omnivores. spoiler[Why on Earth would the Denizen's want to change centuries or eon's worth of human life force eating. Really, the line that highlights FAILURE, is his need to leave family and friends to go to the new world, to enforce this rule.] So, if the whole goal of this whole tragedy was to give Shana a safer world to live in, spoiler[it was a total failure], with the cost in blood unimaginable. If you are going to get your friends killed, and quite possibly Shana too, the rewards have better be worth it. So I have no pity for Yuji. spoiler[If you dance with the devil, you better be able to pay the price. Yuji had better remember everyone he got killed, because of his actions. He'd better spend the rest of his life fixing this problem.] But the writers should spend eternity in torment for their mangling of Yuji's character. Or at least call this season a reimagining or reboot. |
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bin1127
Posts: 148 |
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Did anyone else feel the creators just forced a plot line just to give us another season to watch? I loved watching season one, but then onwards everything went over my head from the plot to the massive amount of names and spells that appears once and never mentioned again. It feels very much like harry potter movies where tons of events happen but none of them attribute anything worthwhile to the main plot.
So much effort being put into making a beautiful anime but wasted on a plot so tepid and mundane. This could be that I'm not a fan of the manga/LN and as such cannot understand the complete awesomeness of this anime... I will hope that is the case. |
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Mad_Scientist
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 3011 |
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@TarTarkas
There are quite a few things I think you are missing. First of all, why is spoiler[Xanadu a paradise for Denizens? Well, consider their alternatives. They got the Crimson World, which has been implied to be a pretty horrible place. It also has no humans, which the Denizens are interested in. They got the human world, which rejects them as unnatural existences and forces them to consume Power of Existence in order to manifest themselves. Which leads to them eating humans, being attacked by Flame Hazes, and also has the potential to destroy reality if things go really bad. They got Xanadu, which is a world that is basically like the human world, but it is designed for them and accepts them. Oh, it's also overflowing with Power of Existence, so they can perform all sorts of things, all the while finally having a chance to try interacting with humans without having to be parasites that feast upon them.] Is it any wonder that they prefer Xanadu? Now, is the human world safer after all this? spoiler[Yes. It's true that not every Denizen necessarily went to Xanadu, but I kind of got the impression that Margery was bringing that up largely as an excuse to explain why she'd stay behind with Keisaku. After all, as explained above, Xanadu is a paradise for Denizens. It is a world created by the manifest wishes of the Denizens that were so strong they called forth the God of Creation. I think it's fair to say that almost all the Denizens went to Xanadu. Those handful that stayed behind will soon learn that it is in their best interest to leave, considering there are still powerful Flame Hazes like Sophie around, and well, there's no good reason for any Denizens to stay. Since there will no longer be a bunch of Denizens recklessly consuming humans and creating distortions, the whole "threat to all of existence" thing is pretty much gone. So I'd say humans are definitely safer.] Now, something you didn't specifically bring up but that was mentioned by others, is why are spoiler[a bunch of Flame Hazes going to Xanadu? Well, the answer to that seems fairly obvious to me. Curiosity. Hatred for Denizens and a desire to follow them. A genuine desire to protect humans (since even if Denizens can't eat them they can still cause problems for them). A desire for unlimited Power of Existence for themselves. Some or all of the above. Take your pick.] Of course, this meansspoiler[ that there are potentially future conflicts in Xanadu between Denizens and Flame Hazes. Even if the Flame Hazes hadn't gone, there would still be the potential for Denizens to abuse humans.] So does this mean Yuji failed? spoiler[No. First of all, the mission of a Flame Haze is to protect the balance and stop the distortions caused by eating humans, not protect humans themselves. But one could say that Shana, at least now, does care about humans and wouldn't be willing to let a bunch of them suffer just because the threat to the world itself is gone. So does that mean Yuji failed? Once again, no. It means Yuji isn't done yet, which is something he said to Bel Peol. For him, things are just starting. That is why he intended to go to Xanadu, alone if needed, and create a peaceful co-existence between Denizens and Humans. Before, such a co-existence was simply not possible. There was no way to bring it about with the way the worlds were. Now, it is possible, even if it may be difficult to achieve. Yuji intends to create it, even if it takes thousands of years. He believed he could do it, suffering alone if need be, and only then after he has created co-existence between Denizens and humans (and thus at last succeeded in allowing Shana a peaceful life) would he have any right to be with her. Shana disagreed, and clearly wants to work with him to achieve peace. So yes, Yuji has not (yet) allowed Shana a peaceful life. But there is at least now a path open that makes such a thing possible in the future, when before there was no hope.] |
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MaxSouth
Posts: 1363 |
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The plot is so messy that it required sheets of explanations, and even then the story is pointless -- because those explanations seem quite stretched.
Just one example: spoiler[Denizens supposedly (according to one theory about what was said in the anime -- among many theories) can not eat people, but yet somehow might harm them? There was never example of any interaction between Denizens and people, besides the latter being eaten by the former. Also, the anime says that Denizens love people already. So why those 1225 Flame Hazes are needed in the copy of the world?] Nothing is really explained. |
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Mad_Scientist
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 3011 |
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Seriously? You seriously don't see why powerful beings that can perform all sorts of spells and miracles that are far beyond the abilities of humans could harm humans spoiler[through methods other than eating them, and would thus still be a potential danger to humans even when unable to eat them?]
I mean, let's say we got a vampire with a whole host of supernatural powers included super strength and speed and telekinesis and hypnoses and who knows what else. spoiler[And then something suddenly makes it where it is impossible for the vampire to suck blood from humans, but the vampire is provided with an infinite supply of blood from the world itself. ] Can the vampire suddenly no longer harm humans? No, of course not, it would be silly to assume that. As for your second paragraph, spoiler[the very existence of Flame Hazes is itself a form of interaction between humans and Denizens. And there was that Denizen from season 2 in Margery's flashback who was obsessed with humans, though he was a bit of a nut and didn't really interact with them in a healthy manner. Regardless of whether healthy interaction with humans is common, there have been cases of Denizens showing a definite interest/curiosity in humans throughout the series.] And your final point.. spoiler[you really don't see why Denizens suddenly trying to interact with humans to a much greater extent than before could lead to conflict, and possibly abuse? ] You're wrong, things in this anime are explained. The major things are at least. Sometimes not as well as they could be, and sometimes it's easy to miss the explanations, but everything does make sense for the most part once you take the time to think about it and remember all the details. At least it makes sense to me.
Well, I can safely say you are wrong about the reason the 3rd season was created. This anime is based on a series of Light Novels, (the manga is another adaption of said novels) and the 3rd season of the anime follows the Light Novels. Heck, from what I understand there is far less anime-original material in the 3rd season than in previous seasons, especially season 2. Now, you could speculate that the author of the novels came up with this plot just so he could drag out the series in the books, but I'd say that's not the case either. I've seen some partial translations of some of the novels, and there is some clear foreshadowing of the ending events. This foreshadowing surprisingly early in the novels. It's clear that the author had this ending in mind from very early on, possibly from the very start of the series. |
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Ferian
Posts: 162 |
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The lack of explanations of obvious things might have to do with that the staff trusting the watchers to have a little bit of logic allowing them to make conclusions on things implied that limited air time wouldn't allow to put into the episodes properly. Obviously, I'm joking, as J.C.Staff would never make such a major misunderstanding about their audience.
But the stuff you point out really is rather obvious.
spoiler[Quite obviously, if you cannot eat something, you cannot harm it in any way... Oh, wait, that doesn't sound right, does it? You can still burn down a forest, even though you'd never be able to swallow it whole. Anyway, the Tomogara will have to start interacting with the humans of Xanadu. Now, what are the chances that a conflict will NOT break out? Zero. About the example part: ...have you even been paying attention? What do you think Johann and Pheles were there for? No, wait, even long before that, there's Shana and Yuuji, and if you don't consider Yuuji human, Margery and Keisaku. About the 1225 Flame Hazes: they are needed there because they are NOT needed here. Imagine that you're an immortal whose whole purpose was hunting down Tomogara (don't forget, many if not most of them had contracted Lords of Guze specifically to take revenge), and suddenly that reason of yours is taken away. You are now an unaging being with no purpose left, and little chance to mingle with mortals as that will only bring you emptiness due to them dying while you will have to continue on. Don't know about you, I'd prefer to go where all other immortals chill. There's even a meaning to them being in Xanadu. They can at least act as police there, and not fear unemployment any time soon. Also, the anime does not say denizens love humans. They find humans interesting, that is all I've gathered. Sydonay is a fine example, especially in the final few episodes.] Everything above is obvious to me. All that's needed is a bit of brain activity. P.S. All those other "theories" are results of silly misunderstandings or outright trolling being taken seriously (oh, wait, that's also a misunderstanding...). edit: P.P.S. I sign up for everything MadScientist has said in the post above. |
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Mad_Scientist
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 3011 |
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Ok, now I have to seriously wonder if I've been paying attention, as when asked for an example of humans and Denizens interacting with each other, the first thing I think of is not Pheles and Johann, no, it's crazy progress guy from season 2. 
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5836 Location: Virginia, United States |
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@Mad_Scientist
If you love the taste of beef, no amount of beef substitute is going to taste as good. Vampire fiction has toyed with this idea also. Blood from a live victim is much more tastier than blood from a blood packet. spoiler[Also, Yuji's birth world was never invaded en masse by the denizens. So the fact that the majority of the denizens moved to the new world, is not really all that relevant. I am sure that plenty of denizens will visit the old world, thinking that what little Flame Hazes stayed behind will have a harder time patrolling it as efficiently as before. Also, on the new world, if the denizens have all the magic power they could ever want, what about the humans. The denizens would be like gods. So you have god-like beings and poor humans. What is the old saying, "power corrupts, ultimate power corrupts ultimately". Think that Yuji, Shana, and all those Flame Hazes are going to have their hands full.] I'll admit, that perhaps I am being too negative. Because of my issues with Yuji's radical characterization changes. He goes from loving and wanting to protect Shana; to physically merging with the villains, world building, war with his friends and love, and his family becomes disposable, of course all for the greater good. There is a wide gulf between those two characterizations, and any bridge between them is basically unrealistic. Even if he succeeded in the majority of his goals, there still would have been a very great chance of losing Shana forever or even getting her killed. The world building and the war seem to be more important to Yuji than his love for Shana. While Yuji doesn't want Shana killed, his actions clearly could endanger her life, and he seems to accept this. These are not the actions of a man who is supposedly in love with Shana. |
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Mad_Scientist
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 3011 |
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I'd say you are being too negative. spoiler[Most denizens don't seem to particularly care where they get their Power of Existence from, so I doubt you'd have many wanting to go to the human world, especially since as you yourself pointed out they'd have far more power in Xanadu.]
spoiler[And yes, Yuji and the Flame Hazes will definitely have their hands full in Xanadu, but not as much as you think. For one thing, I don't think the flowing Power of Existence in there is really going to make things worse. Look at it this way: Denizens could already paralyze any human in a wide radius with a simple seal spell, and could also consume their very existence. Humans are already utterly helpless before Denizens. If not for the Flame Hazes, Denizens could have easily set themselves up as gods in the human world.] spoiler[Humans were already basically insects to the Denizens, so the extra power of Xanadu isn't really going to make a difference. Both Flame Hazes and Denizens will be stronger there, but that will be of little consequence to those below them. Imagine a group of ants, a man who wants to crush the ants, and another man who wants to protect them. Both men are both armed with knives. Now, imagine that those knives are taken away and replaced with machine guns. Doesn't really matter to the ants does it?] That said, I partially agree with you that Yuji's characterization this season wasn't perfect, that there is a disconnect between it and the first 2 seasons, but I don't think it is as extreme as you think. For example, I don't think his family suddenly became disposable to him. Early on, when Yuji assumed he was going to fade away, he was happy that his family would forget him because it meant they wouldn't suffer the sadness of remembering his death. Even after he realized he might not be disappearing any time soon, he was perfectly willing to leave Misaki City and his family behind in order to protect him, even though in those cases they would remember him and worry about his safety. If that was what he felt was needed, that was what he would do. Him leaving them behind now (when they currently don't remember him) doesn't seem out of place. In general, I don't have as harsh a view of Yuji's actions as you do. Yes, what he did risked Shana's life, but he felt that she was inevitably going to die anyways unless something was done about the whole eternal battle between Flame Hazes and Denizens. Yes, he joined the "villains," but the villains turned out to not be nearly as evil as thought previously. So while I definitely think there should have been more foreshadowing of Yuji's decision, and more indication that his character would be the sort of person to make that type of choice, I don't think his character was destroyed. I just think it got some rather rough development. |
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TarsTarkas
Posts: 5836 Location: Virginia, United States |
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The amount of foreshadowing required to make the final season Yuji characterization normal would have fundamentally changed season one and two Yuji's character.
The final season Yuji was prepared to kill Shana, probably not directly if he could help it, but most assuredly indirectly because of his actions. And not just Shana either. His friends may also die because of what he purposefully brought about. The final season Yuji is prepared to leave behind Shana, and there is the realization that because of his actions, Shana if she survives may not want to be with him. These are not the actions of a normal 'sane' man, but of a person who has serious mental issues. These are not the actions of a man who supposedly loves Shana. If the foreshadowing was done correctly we probably wouldn't have liked Yuji as a person during season one and two. This whole "There is a chance that Shana is going to die during this ongoing conflict with the denizens, so I am going to further endanger Shana's life and may even be forced to kill her myself, so I may have the 'chance' of saving her from death from the denizens.", are not the actions of a sane man. |
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