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what about that one girl with the pills that was always around him in highschool? there was a scene where she starts to undress and goes toward him in that sort of way. that kind of implies it. only saw a couple episodes at a con, but i did see that.

Hmm, ya. That was in his thoughts, it never actually happened...

Pleroma wrote:

v1cious wrote:

so i just read the first two volumes of the manga, and i am absolutely stunned at how much Gonzo changed this. not only was a ton of stuff changed or edited out, but they completely toned down the mood. don't get me wrong i still think it's a great anime, but... wow.

Anime was (apparently very faithfully) based on the novel, not the manga. If anything its the manga tat diverges from the original story.

That so! Well, hopefully the guy from Tokyopop at the Phoenix con wasn't BSing me about them releasing the novels sometime next summer.

huh, i didn't catch on to that. only saw one episode prior to it. but i still think that the ending was created by people on acid.

I hate to be the guy with the avatar that matches the post...but, NHK is one of the tiny handful of anime that transcends entertainment and actually forms something I can identify with.
I actually have a crush on this show. As stupid as that sounds, I can find familiar traits in every major player. It's a warm but dirty blanket.
I'll grant there were lapses in animation quality, but the tale told is the thing that stands.
And it stands tall.

PantsGoblin wrote:

As I've mentioned before in two other threads, it is my belief that both hikikomori and otaku are both strongly connected to Pervasive Developmental Disorders, in particularly, Aspergers. If you read Wiki's article, you will notice that the similarites are undeniable.

actually, i never thought about that! it does seem similar.

now i'm no expert in psychology (took a few courses in college), but here's my opinion:

Satou has a mild form of schizophrenia. NHK ni Youkoso deals with how Satou, as not being aware of his paranoia being unusual from the norm, believes that there are conspiracies personally out to get him personally. that already raises a red flag. he's able to adapt to changes, like becoming obsessed w/ galges and spoiler[finally resorting to working once his allowances were gone], but in his mind, those conspiracies are still plotting something against him... he just doesn't know when. after each attempt he just falls back to old habits and starts from zero. in reality it's not that he has problems with social interaction, but the paranoia that comes with what he thinks others are saying of him. the hallucinations are frying his brain. Satou's intelligent and observant enough to slide in jokes like the dream bout the giant snake with the gun firing, etc etc or call out BS when he sees it.

it doesn't help the fact that sempai is (again, my personal opinion), just an emo girl using Satou as a lap dog to agree with her perceptions of the world - be a "yes man." spoiler[when they showed her getting married and having a baby, it showed to me that it was just cold feet she was having. she didn't have any guidance, she she used conspiracies as an excuse to show why she felt like she had nowhere to go. the suicide just showed that in reality she and the others in the club were the weak ones. Satou, although initially not wanting to die, showed that he was commited. even though he was swayed, he grasps on tiny strings to get through day to day. those conspiracies that sempai taught him just further encompassed his life in seclusion. it doesn't help that he liked her also. but Satou was still smart enough to respect her fiancee and not say anything to him about why he didn't notice her problems.]

same thing with Yamazaki.. he's also a jaded character that's using Satou as a medium to express his opinions and anger. spoiler[he already had an identity as an otaku and needed someone there that could fit as a friend. he forces Satou (hilariously) to study galges and help develop a galge together, for his overall plan to get back at his classmates. and he was able to come to a conclusion with the girl he liked, as well as has the family business to run. he chose the business and essentially did, in a sense, abandon Satou. Yamazaki damn well knew that Satou was having problems, and him leaving isn't going to help. and i can't believe he'd use an mmorpg to fudge with Satou, forcing him into a fake romantic relationship then break it to him by busting the door open and showing that he's that character. shock therapy doesn't cure shit.] while i don't doubt they were there for Satou, they definitely NEVER tried to understand how he felt/what he was going through. i'm not trivializing their problems, but compared to Satou's, if they really were friends, how could they not notice/not act? i know this is anime, but it's very accurate to real-life experiences.

even his parents, as the way they were portrayed, don't know what's going on. they just think he's shy. megumi did see his weakness and preyed upon it, spoiler[even though she has a brother who is in a similar predicament,] to bury him in a pyramid scheme. that further draws Satou away from interacting with others. the hikkikomori and NEET issues just fit in with (are by-products of) his schizophrenia. Satou has good perspective. he's empathic and is able to be in other people's shoes. his problem is filling his own. rpgs helped fill that gap temporarily of trying to belong, living in a virtual world, just like when Satou daydreams or thinks up the conspiracies.

i like NHK due to the fact that it shows how one average looking, young Japanese male has so many problems within him that he can't cope with and how Japanese society, in his eyes, shows how wrong he is. we can say "what the fudge is wrong with you" but we don't offer to help that person. Japan, as well as Korea and Koreans for that matter, turn a blind eye to mental/psychological problems. it's not that they hide it - at least that means they are dealing with the problem in some manner, but they act is if it's not there, that's it's some other problem like "you need a good education/job" or "you just need to find the right girl." i can, to a degree, definitely relate to how Satou feels around others. i've had my bouts of depression (although it's probably more like anxiety), attempts at suicide, and form ridiculous excuses about what's going on with my life as a 2nd gen Korean-American. i don't fit in with the Korean cliques nor with any other Asian/non-Asian groups for that matter. i'm able to see in others' perspectives, like my parents' 1st gen ways of thinking/opinions, but i can't find my own niche in life.

i may be getting real serious here, but it seems like at least by the end of the season that the show's about Satou's identity as a person. spoiler[in the end Misaki was the only one that could relate, and was compatible in being a true friend to Satou, although the relationship was tentative. her exp with an abusive father and not having that family structure to give her identity other than being someone in the way was something Satou finally understood. yes, they also both exploited each other's weaknesses, but they eventually understood that they needed each other in order to survive. Satou filled Misaki's need for feeling significant/being needed, while Satou found his source of finding someone willing to understand and able to use her as the rescuer/rescuee of his schizophrenic outbursts/paranoia attacks.]

they didn't really get that much into it, but those appliances were basically the "voices" telling him self-destructive messages and destroying any attempt at interaction or finding help.

i haven't fully read the manga yet, but i'm getting there. i'd hope that if the manga's still being serialized that they try to fit in something about Scientology trying get Satou to join, just like the evangelics in the beginning and the pyramid scheme. that'd be hilarious!

any opinions on what i wrote, or scenarios for Satou?[/spoiler]

Last edited by adonais on Mon Jan 01, 2007 7:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

a1b2c3 wrote:

Satou has a mild form of schizophrenia. NHK ni Youkoso deals with how Satou, as not being aware of his paranoia being unusual from the norm, believes that there are conspiracies personally out to get him personally.

I think he is quite aware of his own paranoia on a lower level, subconsciously perhaps, only he's unable to snap out of it. Like in the last episode, the scene with him and spoiler[Misaki on the cliff, where he attacks the NHK ghoul, saying (to himeself) something like "how pathetic that this is the only thing I can think of to save the one I love"] (I paraphrase, I forget the exact formulation).

Quote:

it doesn't help the fact that sempai is (again, my personal opinion), just an emo girl using Satou as a lap dog to agree with her perceptions of the world - be a "yes man."

Not sure about that, I got the impression senpai was suffering under a major depression herself, maybe bipolar, and she did show him all those meds she were taking at one point.

Quote:

same thing with Yamazaki.. <snip>.... he chose the business and essentially did, in a sense, abandon Satou. Yamazaki damn well knew that Satou was having problems, and him leaving isn't going to help.

Well like you noted, it's not like Yamazaki was without personal(ity) problems of his own, and to say he abandoned Satou would somehow assume that Yamazaki had a responsiility to take care of him in the first place, which he didn't. They just happened to be neighbours, and for a time they entertained the notion that they could do something together. Then reality kicked in, and they both learned a valuable lesson in life.

Quote:

spoiler[and i can't believe he'd use an mmorpg to fudge with Satou, forcing him into a fake romantic relationship then break it to him by busting the door open and showing that he's that character. shock therapy doesn't cure shit.]

This again I see as evidence that even Yamazaki wasn't all there, and certainly not equipped to cure or take care of Satou.

Quote:

any opinions on what i wrote, or scenarios for Satou?

Great discussion, I enjoyed reading it, although I might have a slightly different interpretation on a couple of points as outlined above Wink

Hmm well if you consider spoiler[how Satou introduces Mizaki to the NHK at the very end and his reasoning for doing so. Mizaki couldnt believe in God and so did not have something on which to blame the pains in here life, resorting to her blaming herself instead. Satou uses the paranoia about the NHK to remove the blame that Mizaki was placing on herself and gave her a "real God" on whom she could lay all the troubles of her life. If this is how Satou considers the NHK it would seem reasonable that he is using it for a similar reason himself. I dont really see the idea of the conspiracy brought up earlier than when he was with ( upperclassman , forgot her name already), I think that he was already isolated before the NHK entered the fray and it was on this he decided to blame his problems.

Though in Satou's case the NHK initially seems to have worsened the effect, but at the same time he didn't consider suicide for 4 years as a hikky until brought to the offline meeting. Its possible that the NHK did provide an emotional support even if it also increased his isolation.
]

Just some thoughts.

Does anyone have any insight as to what spoiler[ possible issues Satou might have with his father? For example when his allowance is cut his mother cuts the call quickly when his father arrives home. Also he seemed more concerned about losing his allowance than finding out that his father was hospitalised (though that might have been a matter of perception ). His past is not something that is dealth with before the high school period (unless I completely missed something) I felt that it left something to be desired that it didn't really go into how his isolation initially began though on the other hand it is not necessarily something that requires some traumatic event. ]

drakonslair wrote:

Does anyone have any insight as to what spoiler[ possible issues Satou might have with his father? For example when his allowance is cut his mother cuts the call quickly when his father arrives home. Also he seemed more concerned about losing his allowance than finding out that his father was hospitalised (though that might have been a matter of perception ). His past is not something that is dealth with before the high school period (unless I completely missed something) I felt that it left something to be desired that it didn't really go into how his isolation initially began though on the other hand it is not necessarily something that requires some traumatic event. ]

I have no idea what's up with his father, but certainly Satou was more concerned about his allowance than his father's health. The snippets we were shown didn't seem to indicate that the father had anything to do with Satou turning into a hikkikomori, but there could of course be something hidden that we werent shown. The flashbacks mostly revolved around his mother if I recall correctly, and that he was very fond of her. And then one day on his way to school, it looks like someone just flipped a switch and the anxiety and paranoia kicked in. I don't know, maybe the manga or the original novel has more on this.

thanks for the replies!

adonais wrote:

I think he is quite aware of his own paranoia on a lower level, subconsciously perhaps, only he's unable to snap out of it.

yeah! that's exactly what i meant. "not being aware of his paranoia being unusual from the norm." i actually meant that he was not aware that his paranoia's unnatural. sorry, i suffer from a condition called a-brevitis and can't make clean and coherent sentences. with schizophrenia, his imaginary world and reality are one in the same. that's why spoiler[just like you said about the last ep where he jumps out at the monster, he really DOES believe he's trying to defeat the NHK organization to defend himself and Misaki.]

sorry, i know i was heavy handed with the other characters.

adonais wrote:

..and to say he abandoned Satou would somehow assume that Yamazaki had a responsiility to take care of him in the first place, which he didn't. They just happened to be neighbours, and for a time they entertained the notion that they could do something together.

i would, in all honesty, say that Yamazaki really spoiler[had no intention of going back home. he knew he had to though, because of the failure of the galge, dropping out of college, his way of settling with the girl he liked by making it melodramatic, and just picking up and going. yeah, sure, it was a deal that if he failed he'd go back. his allowances would have been cut off if he stayed, so he didn't have a choice. Yamazaki could've finished his courses, graduate, and present his portfolio to those galge companies to get a job (if he really wanted to), since his vision is about revolutionizing the galge industry. understandable, but from Satou's perspective they WERE neighbors, so he had constant contact with another human being. once he left, those voices started coming back.] sometimes friends don't need to be intelligent or of sound mind (lmfao, well, i hope MY friends are). they just need to be there. that's my focus on the "wtf" at Yamazaki.

drakonslair wrote:

spoiler[Though in Satou's case the NHK initially seems to have worsened the effect, but at the same time he didn't consider suicide for 4 years as a hikky until brought to the offline meeting. Its possible that the NHK did provide an emotional support even if it also increased his isolation]

good point! and the one before that too. spoiler[but isolation is the last thing you'd want someone with a mental disorder to do. they have the potential to cause harm to themselves or to others. that's why i'd consider being further isolated dangerous ground.. like when they showed the N. H. and K. doors closing down on a certain episode. that's what the schizophrenia wants.]

in regards to the father: spoiler[NHK is also an allegory to the social structure. the reason why the father subject is darted around is intentional. Satou's father is a salaryman (i HOPE i'm right about this.. i don't think it was a family business).. and a salaryman's job in Japan is hell. leave work early, come home late, just to sustain their family lives. Satou most likely didn't have any relationship with his father besides the usual filial piety format. just like with my dad, i assume all that Satou's dad did was pressure him to go to college, do well in his education, work, life, etc. and Satou resented him for it. his dad probably wasn't there for him since he was always at work (salarymen are in career jobs and strive for vertical movement in the workplace, but it's tough since most of the time it may just be horizontal) when he was little.

the reason why Satou would be more concerned about his allowance would be because he wants to maintain his "independence" and not come back home. facing his father with the failures he has is probably not motivation to go home either.

the reason why his mention Satou's father in the series is like happenstance is because metaphorically that's what his dad is to him. just someone that's there, not too significant (although he's the breadwinner). Satou probably has a great relationship with his mother because most likely she stays at home.]

it's funny because most of the time anime, and even normal tv shows, rarely talk about a main character's relationship with their family unless it's vital to the character development or plot. but this omission in NHK seems intentional, which i enjoy - most good movies don't even have (or don't bother to try) this type of direction/editing.

Very nice discussion going on here now. Schizophrenia never really came to mind, but it definately seems like a possibility. I knew he must have had something beyond just Aspergers though, his paranoid and delusional tendencies made me think there was most likely more to it than just that... But the obsessive part of Aspergers would also explain some more (I think it may apply more to otaku, who are known for being obsessive, than hikikomori though...).

a1b2c3 wrote:

in regards to the father: spoiler[NHK is also an allegory to the social structure. the reason why the father subject is darted around is intentional. Satou's father is a salaryman (i HOPE i'm right about this.. i don't think it was a family business).. and a salaryman's job in Japan is hell. leave work early, come home late, just to sustain their family lives. Satou most likely didn't have any relationship with his father besides the usual filial piety format. just like with my dad, i assume all that Satou's dad did was pressure him to go to college, do well in his education, work, life, etc. and Satou resented him for it. his dad probably wasn't there for him since he was always at work (salarymen are in career jobs and strive for vertical movement in the workplace, but it's tough since most of the time it may just be horizontal) when he was little.]

So this is just an assumption right? (assuming you didn't read ahead in the manga or novel) Seems like a possible one and would explain it... Wondering if anybody knows if they go into this in the manga/novel...

I read six volumes of the manga at a somewhat accelerated pace (read a couple of volumes on a trans-Canada flight from Toronto to Vancouveer). So my recollections of what exactly was said or done can be a touch sketchy. Anyways, here are a few things I remember about the characters and story in the manga that might be of interest to those who have watched the anime series (hope you folks don't mind the liberal use of spoiler tags. After all, the English translation of the manga is five volumes behind(sic)).:

Sato-kun's affliction: In a random flip through the manga I came across a panel where Sato-kun's father refers to his son's affliction as "utsubou". My read on that is that the diagnosis is "depression". Essentially that word unto itself doesn't describe what's wrong with him. At least in the manga it becomes serious enough for Sato-kun to be spoiler[ hospitalized and forced to move back in with his parents. The results are of course predicatably disastrous - he is offered the savings his mother had kept for him as part of deal with his parents to straighten out his life, takes the money whilst spouting nonsense about Misak-chan, returns to Tokyo, ends up broke and homeless, crosses paths with Kashiwa-sempai again and gets to witness Kobayashi-san's not so hikikomori any longer but relatively delusional older brother embrace Misaki-chan after having drowned out Sato-kun's "confession" to her wth his own. ]

Kashiwa-senpai: In the anime she's relegated to a lost soul who keeps bumping into Sato at such ridiculously convenient times to allow her to work out her personal issues. In the manga she's a slightly different creature. spoiler[ I believe at one point in the story she had an addiction to sleeping pills(though I think I'm likely amiss on this point) and later her marriage to Jougasaki is depicted as a somewhat rocky relationship. That element is introduced with a sequence featuring his patronizing responses to his infuriated spouse during a domestic dispute, which starts off with an image of a knife thrown by her landing in the wall just to the left of his head. Needless to say, so far in the manga she has not become a mother.]

Sato's parents: I vaguely recall a sequence in the anime where Sato-kun remembers how his mother covered for him when he damaged a neighbour's property and how he thus swore to himself that he'd never lie to her again. That is depicted in the manga. His mother also displays the same "mother's intuition" in the manga as seen in the anime scene at the Chinese restaurant in Yokohama. If I recall correctly, in the anime his father doesn't even make an appearance. In the manga his father does appear. spoiler[ His father is definitely in the background of Sato-kun's life. Very much the classic Japanese father figure. I suppose it is sort of an "atarimai"(sic), or just a given, situation that he is simply the head of the household, its income provider and is not emotionally connected to his son. The iconic image of the father in the manga is that of his fist being slammed into the table top as he dumps the "What are you going to do with your life?" lecture on his son. The twist in the manga is that Sato-kun had stumbled across a photo of his father in his younger days that is evidence of his father's folk singer aspirations. That gets used to derail his father's wrath and projection of authority and power. In turn it leads to the disastrous sequence of events in Sato-kun's life mentioned earlier. ]

Misaki-chan: The depiction of Misaki-chan in the anime is, for me, a less flawed character than her manga counterpart. In the manga she's spoiler[ a senior high school drop-out who is messed up (self destructive?) enough to slash her wrists twice, though only once to the degree it is life threatening. I believe the woman she said was her aunt, the Jehovah's Witness lady who gives Sato-kun the copy of Awake! with the article about hikikomori, turns out to actually be her mother. I'm going to have to track down the chapter covering her story of an abusive father figure burning her arm with cigarettes (I have a vague recollection it turns out to be untrue). There's a very peculiar chapter in the manga where Misaki-chan is shown attempting to claim she's "normal" on her first day back at school and then proceeds to isolate herself at lunchtime. When approached by her classmates she finds it difficult to fit in with the "in clique" and is unable to tolerate the girls of the "geek clique". The chapter ends for her with her being discovered by Yamazaki at 1AM (she had yelled out and awoken him) bouncing around exhuberantly in a maid outfit, electric guitar slung over her shoulder, MISAKI web page on her computer screen, Sato-kun's former apartment decked out in lacey curtains and pillows and her lightly slashed wrist wrapped in bandages. With Yamazaki in front of her it all comes crashing down on her as a very wrong scene. In a wonderful twist of fate, her school counseller is Jougasaki-san - Kashiwa-senpai's husband. It is to him that she professes that she is unable to fit into life in a Japanese high school (at a later stage she claims it is because she's utterly bored). Of course, Jougaski-san's words are just as ineffective in resolving Misaki-chan's conflicts as they are in placating his wife. ]

I've left Kobayashi, Yamazaki and Nanako out simply because I think I'm going to have to re-read the books to get a better grip on them.

Anyways, the relationship between Sato-kun and Misaki-chan depicted at the end of the anime had me smiling. I suppose it could be called a charming(?) example of spoiler[co-dependency...well, based on the impression I got anyways. I loved her claim to the title of head of the NHK - "Nihon Hitojichi(Hostage) Kyokai". ]

I just finished earlier this afternoon, and really liked it for the most part - except when the normally pretty smart Sato was incredibly stupid spoiler[freaking out about FFXI, Galges/Pr0n, and Amway)].

The only other thing that bugged me was Sempai. Everytime she came around, Sato would completely forget everything else. It seemed as though he only saw an opportunity in her flirting, than him really being into her. I don't quite understand what happened to them in the club room in High School on her last day? Then what happened on New Year's Eve? Were those "encounters" in Sato's head, or where they real?

Bruce Lee wrote:

I just finished earlier this afternoon, and really liked it for the most part - except when the normally pretty smart Sato was incredibly stupid spoiler[freaking out about FFXI, Galges/Pr0n, and Amway)].

The only other thing that bugged me was Sempai. Everytime she came around, Sato would completely forget everything else. It seemed as though he only saw an opportunity in her flirting, than him really being into her. I don't quite understand what happened to them in the club room in High School on her last day? Then what happened on New Year's Eve? Were those "encounters" in Sato's head, or where they real?

They only happened in his head.

Edit: To expand slightly on the Sempai thing. It would have been Sempai who gave him the idea of the NHK and would have been from what we see the only person he interacted with during high school. She is somewhat outside of his hikky ways. He doesnt suffer from his aversion to being out when with her.

He also probably sees elements of himself within Sempai's character along with an obvious attraction on a physical level. It wouldnt be surprising for him to drop everything for her as she is likely the only person he was most comfortable with.

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