Forum - View topicNEWS: Ken Otaku Ryu "Hating the Otaku Wave" Published in Japan
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minakichan
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...So does "otaku" in this case mean the generic "obsessive unhygenic geek fanboy" or the "anime/manga/vidgame whatever obsessive unhygenic geek fanboy"?
Really, lolicon pisses me off, but those "OMG X POP CULTURE IS RUINING THE WORLD" pisses me off more. I mean, WOW, there are SO many violent and porno movies today... we really should ban cinema worldwide... And don't even get me started on those horribly corrupt novels. |
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AstroNerdBoy
 Posts: 413 Location: Denver, CO |
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There's no reason to show NAKED 3rd-grade girls except to appeal to the lolicon crowd. "Healthy" adults don't want to see it. 
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v1cious
 Posts: 6203 Location: Houston, TX |
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yeah i tend to group loli and moe together for some reason. in any case, it's clear they're trying to sexualize a little girl(clothes ripping, tentacles, etc.), which is just creepy. too bad really cause the storyline is actually really good. |
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HitokiriShadow
 Posts: 6251 |
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A couple years really isn't that long ago. |
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Sally60
Posts: 13 |
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#1 Regarding nudity
NanohaS2 belongs to the Mahou Shoujo genre and is naturally bound by all its traditions and the typical expectations for a show of such a type. I assume people complaining about nudity are refering to the transformation scenes? These exist in nearly every Mahou Shoujo type show, eg Sailormoon. Rayearth, Nanoha S1 etc While some people may find it perverse, it isn't fair to say that such things are so as they are simply traditional to the genre and are accepted as normal already by much of the local viewers in Japan. You'd be hard pressed to find a pedophile or lolicon drooling over the most recent transformation scenes in anime. If on the other hand we're referring to the odd bath scene then that is a bit more unique but not unheard of. Bath scenes exist almost everywhere and to the best of my knowledge was used only once in Nanoha S2. Unlike the ecchi flavoured ones from Mahoromatic, Nanoha's was perfectly normal and lasted for less then 10 seconds. Nothing erotic certainly. Ichigo has a some very long bath scenes but they are nowhere close to erotic. If you're interested in finding out what is an erotic bath scene you might want to visit some of the ecchi districts of the internet fandom sector. #2 Regarding Lolicon I am assuming that Lolicon here refers to simply young female characters rather then erotic representations of them, as Shana is being touted as one and has none of the latter. Ichigo is also being accused of pedo-ish representation but it is hard to imagine a show further from it. The young schoolgirl in Japan is nearly an immortal social iconic figure in that she has been known to wield magic, alien powers, psychic abilities and nearly any other conceivable non-mundane attribute. As such, having such characters run as main characters in anime are definately common. They of course take roles from the incredible (Nanoha) to the mundane (Ichigo) and everything inbetween. It is difficult to understand for me exactly where the complains are coming at. Is it the age of the character that causes such furore? Nanoha is extremely young and Pretty Sammy is younger too. Some of the older shoujos have them in the 6-9 bracket as well. They represent heroines and role models for the younger girls who these shows are targeted at. Most who desire to look at young girls in an erotic manner have other sources rather then mainstream anime. The doujinshi and adult anime production houses produce a steady stream of highly erotic works. These encompress what are the real lolicon and pedo-ish anime and should not be confused with what most are discussing here (Nanoha, PaniPoni, Ichigo, Shana etc). And they well should be, they are supposed to be such things as they won't be very good adult products otherwise. It is possible that such things promote Loli-con tendencies but it is not a clear and simple case to attach the same accusation to PaniPoni and other normal shows. Nor is it reasonable to accuse the adult anime/doujinshi/game industry of such a thing without reasonable statistical correlation analysis. Priestess_Sally |
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vebhe
Posts: 3 |
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It isn't even that, it's the fact that Nudity isn't as taboo in Japanese culture and society (unless of course, you start showing genetalia. Then you have to start censoring it  ).
I mean, the ancient Greeks(?) had nude peeing-boy statues and little naked cupids. Does that make them a lolicon/Michael Jackson race for admiring naked little boys? |
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astra
Posts: 131 |
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It's wishful thinking to say that most anime doesn't sexualize young girls. The problem with moe and lolicon is that much of it is not erotic in the traditional sense. The stuff sexualizes the non-erotic. For example, the small underdeveloped breasts of a young girl would not be considered erotic by some but the way they are presented in lolicon and moe have obvious erotic overtones. The lighting that emphasizes the young body or the angles all sexualize what most would not normally consider sexy.
For the people that argue that focusing on young girls is simply a tradition in the genre, where do you think it first came from? It shows a perversion that has existed for quite some time and still continues today. The frightening thing is that what arguably is the domain of pedophiles has been allowed to become so mainstream. Non-pedophiles who watch the anime simply ignore the lolicon overtones and enjoy the story. This doesn't mean that the overtones do not exist. And this is not to say that lolicon is present in all anime in equal amounts. There is an obvious difference between Sailor Moon's Chibi Usa and Cardcaptor Sakura. Chibi Moon wears a short skirt and has naked transformation scenes. Sakura has transformation scenes but they are not all about her body. However, the reason that CCS was so wildly popular in Japan was because of men with interest in moe. Moe might not be overwhelmingly erotic; instead it is about finding the erotic in what is not usually sexual. No matter how compelling you argue the story of CCS is, why are grown men so fascinated by the exploits of a young girl in a children's show? There is *something* that makes these men watch these shows. So guys, what is that something? Why do you give a shit about some stupid little kid on her childish adventures? Obviously, simply watching an exceptional show about such a subject does not indicate anything. But what about the people who continually watch these things? There *is* a reason. However, lolicon and moe are not legitimate reasons to demonize otaku. Certainly, they are problems in anime but as other people have said, they are also problems in Japanese society as a whole. I haven't read the manga, obviously, but I don't like irrational hatred. Heck, I don't even like rational hatred 
Oh and hay, kids. It bugs me when people reply to my posts and completely misunderstand what I wrote. Think before you post. |
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outlawwolf
 Posts: 645 |
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Actually, Lolicon means someone young looking (usually almost younger than 10 looking)in erotic situations. It's an adaptation of the whole Lolita thing which is basically young looking girls in erotic situations, only in real life. |
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outlawwolf
Posts: 645 |
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[quote="outlawwolf"]
Actually, Lolicon means someone young looking (usually almost younger than 10 looking)in erotic animated situations. It's an adaptation of the whole Lolita fetish which is young looking girls in erotic real live situations. |
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vebhe
Posts: 3 |
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According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolicon : "Strictly speaking, Lolita complex in Japanese refers only to the condition, but the abbreviation lolicon can refer to pedophiles. In the Western world, the term lolicon refers to sexual anime-style artwork portraying underage characters, often produced in Japan." So you're only half wrong, and only half correct (going by wikipaedia, that is). Dunno why you're trying to quote yourself in your double post though
Last edited by vebhe on Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sally60
Posts: 13 |
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#1 It's wishful thinking to say that most anime doesn't sexualize young girls
#2 The stuff sexualizes the non-erotic #3 It shows a perversion that has existed for quite some time and still continues today. #4 Non-pedophiles who watch the anime simply ignore the lolicon overtones and enjoy the story. #5 Chibi Moon wears a short skirt and has naked transformation scenes. Sakura has transformation scenes but they are not all about her body. #6 Why are grown men so fascinated by the exploits of a young girl in a children's show? There is *something* that makes these men watch these showsWhy do you give a shit about some stupid little kid on her childish adventures? #7 Oh and hay, kids. It bugs me when people reply to my posts and completely misunderstand what I wrote. Think before you post =========================================== My you are certainly have very set view on this. I am unable to find another post of yours in this thread so it is quite puzzling what you mean by #7. Calling people kids is however nothing polite. Nonetheless your entire post seems to suggest that that many shoujo animes sexualise young girls. While that statement is easy to understand, you make few references to any reasons why you believe so. You suggest that Chibi-Usa is sexualised because she wears a short skirt.100% of the Sailor Senshi cast have that outfit. While I suppose you might consider all the characters there sexualised, that is quite an extreme view. The Sailor Senshi are superheroines and as befitting their archetype they tend to dress the part. Superheroine outfits tend to be flashy and slight sexy. Many US comic heroines too have skimpy outfits, it is simply the difference in age that causes some problems to some people. In Mahou Shoujo anime, the heroines start young. You suggests that her transformation scenes are about her body. Its hard to imagine a transformation scene that does not involve the materialisation of magical clothing from thin air. Kinomoto Sakura is an exception amongst Mahou Shoujos because her friend Tomoyo does her costumes and they are most definately mundane and not magical in nature. That is why you don't see Sailormoon type naked transformation scenes. Barring such exceptional circumstances, mahou shoujos like to include outlined transformation scenes with no detail to anything except generic body shape. Pretty Cure's transformations are not very different from Sailormoon's or any other mahou shoujo transformation. No sexual organs or similar aspects are included unless of course you are looking at a production from an adult studio. The concept that such shows sexualise the non-erotic is contradictory in itself. What is not erotic cannot be sexualised. Pedo-ish fans and those with similar perverted fetishes go for the proper channels to satisfy their desires. Properly sexualised and erotic versions of CCS, Chibi-Usa, Nanoha and any other number of popular female heroines exist in the adult industry. If on the other hand you want to suggest that certain people against reasonable logic are aroused by what is not erotic then that by itself has nothing to do with the media being discussed. For example, CCS TV is not an erotic show but its hentai version is. However if people find CCS TV to be erotic then it is not the fault of the producers. A simple drawing of an apple might be erotic to some but the picture by itself is not erotic. Instead of accepting that much of Japan does not consider these things erotic and by extension that such things are non-erotic, you try to suggest that all who share that opinion are suffering from perversion. As they fully consider such a tradition to be non-perverse in nature. That is a rather nasty generalisation which you have given nothing to support. However you also suggest that the primary reason for CCS's popularity is due to the erotic perceptions of most of its male fanbase. If that were truly the case, shows with a higher and more blatant slant of erotic activities would gain far higher popularity. That this is not the case suggests that more wholesome reasons are the cause of CCS's runaway success. Indeed it is said that the show was successful because of its heartwarming and lighthearted portrayal of the daily life of Sakura and the trials she endured. First Love, friendships, childish conflict and the various other generic tools of shoujo anime. You define 'Moe' as "finding the erotic in what is not usually sexual". While this is the first time I've heard of such a definition, it cannot be deined that Moe is a very difficult term to define because it is a slang used by the anime fanbase and like most slang words, its meaning differs depending who you ask. Moe is more commonly defined as the budding feeling of affectionate protection. I have never heard of Moe used in an erotic sense and unless you provide an example of your uncommon definition you won't be able to prove anything. From your #6 it would seem that you cannot conceive that grown men might find interest in CCS without having any sexual motivations. I recommend you rethink that belief or you'll find nearly all mahou shoujo anime, shoujo anime and quite a bit of the other genres (its rare to find an anime without any underage girls) out there tainted with what you believe 'sexualisation of underage girls'. Priestess_Sally |
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darkhunter
 Posts: 2992 Location: Los Angelas |
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Eh, I would like to see less generic moe type show being release, but that's not going to happen.
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Nick1978
 Posts: 16 Location: Ohio, USA |
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Or you could just let it go and not make stupid comments that tend to enflame things any further? 
Im willing to go out on a limb and say this guy had no intention of even trying to remotely sound rude when he wrote that yet you have taken it upon yourself to correct this great injustice! Im sure he learned his lesson and will from this day forward use only neutral PC words as not to offend the wonderful people like you out there! Yay for progress.......... 
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Fiction Alchemist
Posts: 438 |
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DELETED. What a stupid post.
Last edited by Fiction Alchemist on Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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hikaru004
 Posts: 2306 |
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Well, I think that moe and lolicon can co-exist. You can think of lolicon as a step in the continuum started by moe's "protect" and "nurture". It's actually done as a plot device in anime (eg. Primula in "Shuffle", Nodoka in "Mahou Sensei Negima", Hazuki in "Tsukuyomi Moonphase", Cosette in "Le Portrait de Petite Cossette"). |
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