You are welcome to look at the talkback but please consider that this article is over 3 years old before posting.
Forum - View topicGAME: Nier Replicant Ver.1.22474487139...
|
Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Rob19ny
Posts: 1700 |
|
|||
Thank you for not calling the game a remaster or remake, which Yoko and Saito said it wasn't, but a version up(grade), and respecting their vision throughout this article. Others have no have respect and think they know more than the creators, which leads to misinformation spreading. |
||||
|
||||
|
b-dragon
Posts: 463 |
|
|||
|
Its been a bit since I had such a conflicted reaction to a game. And I've been playing a lot of games that have some pretty major flaws, so that's saying something. I think it has to do with the intentionality of the bad design- and I do believe the most problematic game design choices (in my mind, the repetition of large sections and sidequests as a whole,) to be intentionally bad. Because I understand it to be intentionally bad, I can't simply acknowledge the flaw and look past it. I have to engage with it as it is. I understand that there is a statement to be made with this state of being stuck in a cycle and/or mundanity...but that doesn't make the experience enjoyable or interesting. For a vast majority of the game's runtime, I don't enjoy playing it.
And that's a shame, because holy cow, does it nail the high points it wants to. The music is stellar- there aren't too many tracks, but with all variations tracks get they don't get old. More specialized folks than I can get into why it is so good...just know that I haven't played in a few days, and in my head I can still hear the soundtrack. Its great stuff, truly. As is the voice acting- as pointed out the dub is superb. Also, a lot of little character beats can happen in combat- it can be difficult to read subtitles in the middle of a fight. The narrative is not the most complex, but it doubles down hard and focuses on important points and themes- and comes out all the better for it. There are a few things that could have used more build up through the game, but not much should be added. Its a lean plot with interesting characters- best not weigh it down much. Regarding Brother vs Papa Nier- I think they both do have points where one or the other presents a stronger case, but ultimately I think Brother Nier is the better fit for the narrative. Personally, I have a hard time recommending it. Intentional seeming bad design seems like a giant, bony finger directed at players, and is hard to ignore. But...when it clicks, it is magic that lives long after you've forgotten the gameplay. I guess...it comes down to why you play games. Do you play for the thrill during the game...or the memory of it after? At least, thats my opinion. |
||||
|
||||
|
meiam
Posts: 3442 |
|
|||
|
Having followed Taro game since drakengard I'm still somewhat baffle that his game took off so much, none more so than nier. It has some really cool stuff in it but it's mostly... dull and boring. I'd say it's roughly 20% cool stuff to 80% boredom. The combat is so shallow it might as well not be there (and the few changes this version made are not even close to enough) and the game is so incredibly full of boring padding, including an insulting amount of of pointless backtracking and running back and forth between the same 2-3 areas, that at launch plenty of people were genuinely calling it a parody of open world RPG.
This is made all the worse because subsequent playtrough have little difference from the first one, so you have to replay a mostly boring experience for just a few minutes of interesting stuff. When I finished it way back my first though was just "I wish I had just watched a lets play of it". You can easily get all of the good side of the game and, if it's a good LP, they'll cut out the pointless padding and overlong dungeon and you can get a pretty tight experience that way. The soundtrack is amazing, but you can also experience that without having to drudge trough the gameplay. If you haven't played the original one, I'd strongly caution against buying into the hype for this game, it's mostly riding of the coattail of automata. Instead read review of the PS3 version which scored significantly worse than this new release. |
||||
|
||||
Vanadise
 Posts: 500 |
|
|||
|
NieR Replicant is, I think, a good illustration of why I think describing games as "good" or "bad," especially in critic reviews is misguided and not useful.
The new version has some significant improvements over the original, and it's still got some dull environments, a lot of repetition, poor difficulty balancing, and a number of other perfectly valid complaints. A reviewer assigning it a numeric score could give it a 7/10 and I'd say that's completely justified. Despite that, it's still an amazing experience and one of the most impactful games I've ever played. It's got a special place in my heart, and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to anybody who's interested in a story-heavy JRPG that is willing to be weird and experimental. It's a 10/10 in terms of long-term impact that it's personally had on me, and that's the only score that really matters. I have no doubt that the game came out exactly as Yoko Taro intended it, and so even if there are parts of it that I and other people don't like, I can't find any justification for calling it "bad on purpose." The thought that goes into decisions like this isn't "I'm going to make something unenjoyable," it's "I'm going to try something unusual to make a point or provoke a reaction." Something isn't bad just because you didn't personally enjoy it; everything is done in service of an overarching goal, and if it helped it achieve that goal, it's good. |
||||
|
||||
|
b-dragon
Posts: 463 |
|
|||
I agree with most of what you said- but I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. If it is repetitive, monotonous, boring and unpleasant on purpose- it is still all of those things. And as an objective gameplay experience, they are bad things, particularly in excess. Its an "Endless 8" argument (Haruhi Suzumiya), and there, as now, I hold the same opinion: A "purpose" or "intent" doesn't save something from being bad or good- it adds a dimension to it. "Intent" does matter, but any sort of media must contend with both creator and consumer. Interactive media more than most. If players fail to play through because they got bored and irate with endless fetch quests, and fragile deliveries and replaying the back half over and over again-how much does creator intent matter? They'll not be there to see. That isn't an easy question, but its an important one for games in particular. As for whether its was bad on purpose- I don't actually think the combat was. It was touched up, addressed in this fix. Humorously, as if aware that polish was only going to go so far, some of the fixes include interacting with gameplay less- autobattle, yay! But seeing what was fixed or changed, and what wasn't...well, that tells us something about his priorities in more closely aligning it with his new-or prior, I guess-vision. None of this, obviously, means it is somehow not allowed to be amazingly impactful for you or anyone else. Myself, I like this one better than Automata, and I can make few objective arguments to justify that stance (better characters, mostly). But I'm also not inclined to write off flaws just because they were in service of a goal-they are still flaws, and ought be treated as such. The ends, in a game, don't always justify the means. |
||||
|
||||
whiskeyii
 Posts: 2247 |
|
|||
|
Chalk me up there with James as another of those “it may be trash, but it’s *my* trash, dammit!” You know how people who get into X form of media talk about this or that film/book/comic/whatever being their watershed moment for what a [insert thing] could be? NieR was that game for me. I was already almost there, I think, as a fan of stuff like Shadow of the Colossus, and Spec Ops: The Line was looming on the horizon, unbeknownst to me, but NieR was like a thematic kick to the face about what games could really do in terms of interactivity, way, waaaaay beyond what most other studios were willing to do to their players. And I loved every roughly hewn minute of it. I’m so glad this game is getting another shot; there’s just not a lot like it out there.
|
||||
|
||||
|
meiam
Posts: 3442 |
|
|||
You can make it sounds like some amazing art piece, but it's pretty obvious what happened here. They made the good parts of the game and it was like 6 hours, went "crap we can't sell a full price game with just 6 hours of content!" and padded it with pointless back and forth and unnecessary replay. Those bring absolutely nothing to the game and could easily be removed without subtracting anything from the experience but the game was too short and they knew that if they release without the padding all the review would be "too short". There's nothing unusual about boring fetch miniquest that send you back and forth across the same area, that's just classic padding. The combat was also just bad, they were good enough to recognized that they couldn't do any better and sub contracted that part to platinum for automata. This isn't a case of them intending the combat to be generic boring, they just didn't have the chop to make anything but that (and probably didn't really care). Nothing usual here, just think of the most generic action RPG you've ever played, removed one or two features and you can nier gameplay. |
||||
|
||||
|
Stelman257
Posts: 276 |
|
|||
|
Goddamn I love this game. And yeah I'm so happy Yoko Taro's games are finally getting the attention they deserve. Thank you Nier Automata, and thank you to everyone who gave this game a second chance at a wonderful life.
|
||||
|
||||
cookiemanstah
 Posts: 546 |
|
|||
|
so in summary (again): Yoko Taro is a bad game designer but a great writer?
Honestly, why not make an anime since he's published plenty of literature |
||||
|
||||
Greed1914
 Posts: 4442 |
|
|||
|
I'd say I'm in agreement that intent only goes so far. There may very well be creator commentary conveyed by something like bland fetch quests or a character acknowledging it was a fruitless effort, but it's the type of thing that the audience will understand the first time. Asking them to do it repeatedly shifts it into doing the same things as others, but asking for the player to let it slide since there is a wink to the audience.
An example I would use is the trend for isekai protagonists to be aware of what isekai is. Sure, the author is making it obvious at the start that they, via the protagonist, are well aware of how common it is, but that doesn't change the fact that they use the same tropes. If someone is weary of isekai, I doubt they are going to be convinced to stick with a story just because the author made it clear they meant to reuse the same tropes. I guess what I'm getting at is that it still boils down to the audience's tolerance for that design. I'm generally ok with these things since I haven't grown bored with them, but I'm not going to fault someone that is. |
||||
|
||||
|
whiskeyii
Posts: 2247 |
|
|||
My rebuttal would be that I think he is genuinely trying to use the interactivity unique to games in unusual ways, and that this approach just isn't possible in other mediums. I do think he works best when in a mostly narrative role, though, and is well supported by developers and programmers who understand how to help him achieve his vision. |
||||
|
||||
Cryten
 Posts: 997 |
|
|||
|
All of Taro's works seem to make the same statement that there is nothing you can do. It all ends badly for everyone and the only point of existing is to enjoy the brief moments between suffering where the force that be arnt frelling you over. I find that a bit depressing all told. The best ending for me was when you got to fight the creators of the game to attain that one impossible good ending in Automata.
|
||||
|
||||
|
a_Bear_in_Bearcave
Posts: 514 Location: Poland |
|
|||
I agree that the interactive element of games, where you, the Player, are the one executing all of the actions the MC and making the choices, even if they have to be narrative-constrained, can add a lot to the personal responsibility aspect when the game hits you with the results of the MCs actions and choices. Of course, it only applies if the game can make you care about the world, it's inhabitants and your teammates in the first place, and if the narrative doesn't feel too railroad-y, but game creator can invoke immense emotions in player using that submersion in fictional world and pretend choices it gives to the player that is not available to mere watcher or reader of media. |
||||
|
||||
|
ChimeyChime
Posts: 63 |
|
|||
|
I liked the original nier well enough, but I doubt I'll buy this one. I have no interest in the brother-sister relationship.
|
||||
|
||||
Spike Terra
 Subscriber Posts: 359 Location: Maryland |
|
|||
|
I always thought of the quest loop in nier to be intentionally simple so you pay more attention to the quest stories (which are great for getting to know the world). I will say that I wish they dropped some of the material requirements for the weapon upgrades as the drop rate early game is god awful until you get the correct word edits. That and the flower growing mechanics can go pound salt ( how dare you make me have to pretend to be in multiple time zones
 ). I can't even criticize the quest loop too hard as it felt standard for the time of 2010.
Dual audio is great option for this game especially when you have to play it multiple times for the entire story. The cast is amazing on both sides, it really helps that the characters are super lovable (except for spoiler[Tyrann and Gideon]). The music has always been top notch, I bought the soundtrack off the SE website and have been playing fleeting words on loop for at least two months. |
||||
|
||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group