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Bonham wrote:

I should have mentioned that I think there should be a distinction spoiler[between the white-feathers and black-feathers.]

. spoiler[What white and black feathers? There's only charcoal grey feathers. Haibane Renmei actually means Charcoal Feather Federation. Any one of the haibane could have their feathers become stained with sin, it all depends on how severe their sin was before they committed suicide. Also any Haibane who doesn't gain redemption within an amount of time and therefore miss their Day Of Flight, are banished to a lonely oblivian to languish for all eternity, not become one of the monks. This concept is not unlike the Catholic Christian belief of Pergatory, where your sinfulness isn't bad enough for your soul to go to Hell, but not absolved and therefore redeemed enough to go to Heaven. However in Catholicism, suicide is a mortal sin which gets any Catholic soul a direct express ride to Hell if not absolved by the Last Rite performed by a priest. unfortunatly not many of them reside around railway lines, or near rivers, lakes, or deep wells, ]

Ahhh memories. I still have my original dvd releases for this show. Funny thing is I just had my gf watch this show and now this new release comes out heh. I might buy this, even though I already own the show, simply to have a backup. My original dvd singles are old and well used. They're still in great shape but this is one of those series I would be very upset if I lost or something happened to. I've re-watched it numerous times. So maybe for x-mas a backup is in order.

I, personally can't get past my own views of this show's purgatory-like setting. It's like being put into prison with no idea how or why you got there. It's so diametrically opposed to my own view that death is a return to ultimate freedom.

trilaan--

I think that you need to keep in mind that in Buddhism that people are reborn in a state as a direct result of their karma. This show was aired in Japan, so there would have been no need to explicitly state that.

Mohawk52 wrote:

spoiler[What white and black feathers? There's only charcoal grey feathers. Haibane Renmei actually means Charcoal Feather Federation.]

Typing out spoiler[white feathers and black feathers is easier than typing out non-sin-bound and sin-bound all the time. I'm obviously making a distinction based on [url=http://thepinksylphide.com/images/haibane-renmei/misc/Reki's%20sin%20spreads%20quickly%20across%20her%20wings.png]this[/url].]

Quote:

spoiler[Any one of the haibane could have their feathers become stained with sin, it all depends on how severe their sin was before they committed suicide.]

spoiler[I don't recall the exact line or visual clue that indicates this. Which episode/moment are you referring to?]

Quote:

Also any Haibane who doesn't gain redemption within an amount of time and therefore miss their Day Of Flight, are banished to a lonely oblivian to languish for all eternity, not become one of the monks.

spoiler[I recall that there were sources outside the anime that confirmed the haibane renmei -- like Washi the Communicator -- are former sin-bound haibane who were not able to achieve their day of flight (much in the same way yoshitoshi ABe confirmed that all of the haibane are suicides). And if you discount that, there is the very obvious visual and dialogue clue that Washi and others are former haibane -- it happens in episode 11, and frankly I see it as the only interpretation that makes sense of the haibane renmei.]

Key wrote:

Moonsaber wrote:

A question: How does this two disk version stack up quality wise against my current version? Is there anything to recommend it? I wouldn't mind owning two copies of this even if the subtitle font is better. The original disks had a fair amount of art and other extras, if I recall.

We'll have to have someone else comment on that. This rerelease is the first time I've had a hard copy of the series; in fact, the first time I saw any of this series beyond the first episode was about three weeks ago, so I'm a very recent convert.

I'll take a weak stab at it, tho this isn't going to be all that comprehensive having only a very little time between work projects. (is Hissatsu still about?)
I have the original Pioneer set from way back, and also acquired the new release with the intention that one of the sets will be off to be brother, so for the moment I can look at both.

The bonus content has already been covered, though I am slightly disappointed the Next Episode previews and final episode ending remained separate and not integrated into the main program where I think they would have complimented very nicely. (this was frequently the presentation for many/most Pioneer releases, IIRC - hoping they get reintegrated for the new Lain release.)

Bitrates: a scan of just ep.1 using DVDLab (only the video stream)
Old Pioneer disc

Funimation disc

Screencaps: Eight shots from ep.1 (these aren't frame accurate in matching, but close enough to give you a decent idea of how things differ.)
1. OP title card
Pio http://www.eskimo.com/~kdeanda/aod/hbrm01-9426717.png
Funi http://www.eskimo.com/~kdeanda/aod/hbrm02-9420668.png

2. Reki stomps a cigarette
Pio http://www.eskimo.com/~kdeanda/aod/hbrmA1-663872.png
Funi http://www.eskimo.com/~kdeanda/aod/hbrmA2-653920.png

3. The bulletin board
Pio http://www.eskimo.com/~kdeanda/aod/hbrmB1-664113.png
Funi http://www.eskimo.com/~kdeanda/aod/hbrmB2-654143.png

4. Rakka floating
Pio http://www.eskimo.com/~kdeanda/aod/hbrmD1-717591.png
Funi http://www.eskimo.com/~kdeanda/aod/hbrmD2-656269.png

5. Reki & Nemu arguing about asigning the watch
Pio http://www.eskimo.com/~kdeanda/aod/hbrmE1-9433954.png
Funi http://www.eskimo.com/~kdeanda/aod/hbrmE2-9435957.png

6. The group - about to get Egged
Pio http://www.eskimo.com/~kdeanda/aod/hbrmF1-9445791.png
Funi http://www.eskimo.com/~kdeanda/aod/hbrmF2-9435497.png

7. Reki falls (high speed motion shot)
Pio http://www.eskimo.com/~kdeanda/aod/hbrmI1-9447684.png
Funi http://www.eskimo.com/~kdeanda/aod/hbrmI2-9443014.png

8. Rakka gets some static
Pio http://www.eskimo.com/~kdeanda/aod/hbrmH1-9450394.png
Funi http://www.eskimo.com/~kdeanda/aod/hbrmH2-9440431.png

9. Hikari & Rakka return the halo mould (much later - ep.3 I think)
Pio http://www.eskimo.com/~kdeanda/aod/hbrmR1-9429437.png
Funi http://www.eskimo.com/~kdeanda/aod/hbrmR2-9425470.png

There's an overall increase in detail, though at the cost of ringing on some edges. Dunno if this is due to EE by Funi or something native to the masters. I suspect the later, as IIRC this was a significant issue with the JP BD upscale, and it's perhaps the source Funi was provided. The old set is -very- soft, though dunno how it compared to its JP DVD equivalent.

Subtitles: Pioneer was yellow, Funi is white and seems to be a slightly smaller font.
Of note: I noticed that some screen text translations aren't present on the new set that were on the old, though I haven't taken a full account. Immediately noticed were the absence of text for the ep1 OP credits, and nametags on the bulletin board... there may be others, or perhaps that's all there is. It does though appear not to be a complete port of the Pioneer subtitles, but the translation & timing seem to be otherwise identical. (regular OP & ED are the same for both; English-only text.)

The technical issues tho IMO are far outweighed by the quality of the program - glad to see it back in print, even if it never looks as good as it should (such may be the fate of many early DIP productions... Sad

)

Cyclograph wrote:

Screencaps:

The lines seem to be almost smeared in certain cases -- screencap five with Reki and Nemu, for example -- which indicates it probably being from the new Japanese master for their blu-ray. And man, it's weird to not see the show look soft...

It's a shame, but not a surprise after Funimation used the new Japanese FLCL master which garnered a fair bit of controversy.

nbahn wrote:

I think that you need to keep in mind that in Buddhism that people are reborn in a state as a direct result of their karma. This show was aired in Japan, so there would have been no need to explicitly state that.

Oh sure, I can understand the whys of it and see it from that perspective, I just can't change my personal perspective on it.

I'm sure my dad would love it just from the perspective you laid out.

Bonham wrote:

Mohawk52 wrote:

spoiler[What white and black feathers? There's only charcoal grey feathers. Haibane Renmei actually means Charcoal Feather Federation.]

Typing out spoiler[white feathers and black feathers is easier than typing out non-sin-bound and sin-bound all the time. I'm obviously making a distinction based on [url=http://thepinksylphide.com/images/haibane-renmei/misc/Reki's%20sin%20spreads%20quickly%20across%20her%20wings.png]this[/url].]

That's no excuse.

Quote:

spoiler[Any one of the haibane could have their feathers become stained with sin, it all depends on how severe their sin was before they committed suicide.]

spoiler[I don't recall the exact line or visual clue that indicates this. Which episode/moment are you referring to?] Ask yourself why would those two be the only one's? It's a given that is not shown with the others. Ask Abe why that was.

Quote:

spoiler[Also any Haibane who doesn't gain redemption within an amount of time and therefore miss their Day Of Flight, are banished to a lonely oblivian to languish for all eternity, not become one of the monks.]

spoiler[I recall that there were sources outside the anime that confirmed the haibane renmei -- like Washi the Communicator -- are former sin-bound haibane who were not able to achieve their day of flight (much in the same way yoshitoshi ABe confirmed that all of the haibane are suicides). And if you discount that, there is the very obvious visual and dialogue clue that Washi and others are former haibane -- it happens in episode 11, and frankly I see it as the only interpretation that makes sense of the haibane renmei.][/quote]spoiler[Washi said this to Rakka at the end, he also mentioned that the wings shrival and fall off, so it is just as speculated that Washi's Wings are just empty covers on his wardrobe, there to give the Haibane a feeling that the monks are the same as them to try to illiminate distrust. Same as the rest you have referred to. ]

Mohawk52 wrote:

Quote:

spoiler[Also any Haibane who doesn't gain redemption within an amount of time and therefore miss their Day Of Flight, are banished to a lonely oblivian to languish for all eternity, not become one of the monks.]

spoiler[I recall that there were sources outside the anime that confirmed the haibane renmei -- like Washi the Communicator -- are former sin-bound haibane who were not able to achieve their day of flight (much in the same way yoshitoshi ABe confirmed that all of the haibane are suicides). And if you discount that, there is the very obvious visual and dialogue clue that Washi and others are former haibane -- it happens in episode 11, and frankly I see it as the only interpretation that makes sense of the haibane renmei.]

spoiler[Washi said this to Rakka at the end, he also mentioned that the wings shrival and fall off, so it is just as speculated that Washi's Wings are just empty covers on his wardrobe, there to give the Haibane a feeling that the monks are the same as them to try to illiminate distrust. Same as the rest you have referred to. ][/quote]

Yeah, there is no point where it is stated that spoiler[any that doesn't gain redemption disappears in to oblivion. There are heavy implications that the Haibane Renmei are those that failed to gain this redemption, though that is never outright stated either. It's open to interpretation, but I think those that view it as disappearing in to oblivion are flawed as there is nothing to indicate that is the case, and it seems more an effort to apply beliefs of certain religious denominations to the show instead of interpreting the content of the show itself.]

spoiler[Also, the idea that there's a time constraint also seems unlikely. It doesn't seem that it comes down to obtaining redemption in a certain period of time. Instead it seems that they can either follow the road of redemption or the road of despair, and it is that falling in to despair that finally results in the loss of the wings, at least that was my interpretation of it.]

Mohawk52 wrote:

That's no excuse.

You're trying to pin me on word choice. Stop being pedantic.

Quote:

spoiler[Ask yourself why would those two be the only one's? It's a given that is not shown with the others. Ask Abe why that was.]

spoiler[Your wording is vague here, but I still go back to my question (which was also perhaps wordy vaguely): where is it stated or implied that any of the haibane could become sin-bound? I'm honestly asking for a straightforward answer, because from what I remember it was never made competely clear.]

Quote:

spoiler[Washi said this to Rakka at the end, he also mentioned that the wings shrival and fall off, so it is just as speculated that Washi's Wings are just empty covers on his wardrobe, there to give the Haibane a feeling that the monks are the same as them to try to illiminate distrust. Same as the rest you have referred to. ]

Keonyn already responded to this quite well, so there's nothing else I need to add.

Quoted from the subs on my discs which pretty much are the same for the dub.spoiler[Washi states to Raka, "Some do remain, but they are no longer called Haibane. They lose their wings and halo, and live away from both humans and Haibane. Sooner or later they grow old and die. It's a quiet and peaceful, but lonely life". It's never stated how, or where the remenants live, but if it's "a lonely life" no one else is in contact with them. One could say that would be a form of oblivion. ]Also spoiler[ the Haibane know when their time has come, or is coming soon, when their halo's luminance starts to pulsate.] So much of this story is left to speculation that either concept is plausable.

Animegomaniac wrote:

2 Searching for meaning where there isn't any. If you're asking "why this" or "why that" or what does [blank] mean", you're missing the point. It means what you, the viewer, want it to mean. So your imagination is supplying all the heavy lifting while the creator gets the credit for being "profound".

You completely ignore the fact that this issue is discussed IN THE SERIES. There is a whole episode dedicated to it (ep 4, I believe -- the one in the library). The questions are the point, because, as humans, that is all we have.

Question: Why can't we see what is beyond the wall of death?
Answer: Nobody knows, but many people have made up their own stories because they want to have some kind of meaning.

Question: Why does evil exist?
Answer: Nobody knows, but many people have made up their own stories because they want to have some kind of meaning.

As humans (just like the Haibane), we live in a world that doesn't answer all of our questions. Making up our own stories can provide meaning.

It's like Sound of the Sky - but good! Wink

dm wrote:

NieA_7 and Haibane Renmei, he deserves credit for creating, but not Lain.

This. ABe did character design for Lain and Texhnolyze, but the story was by Yasuyuki Ueda (hence the nonsensical ending).

eyeresist wrote:

dm wrote:

NieA_7 and Haibane Renmei, he deserves credit for creating, but not Lain.

This. ABe did character design for Lain and Texhnolyze, but the story was by Yasuyuki Ueda (hence the nonsensical ending).

This is incorrect: Ueda conceived the story, but the series compositions (and many of the episode scripts) for Lain and TEX were conceived by Chiaki J. Konaka.

LaFreccia's excellent post is particularly because I feel it very much applies to all of the ABe series. Lain and TEX require a bit more work than what the average anime demands of viewers -- the former moreso than the latter in terms of plot construction -- but that doesn't make them bad. Both deal with characters attempting to make sense of their environment and navigate through it, just as Haibane Renmei does (and NieA_7 to a lesser extent). And I wouldn't certainly I wouldn't attach narrative incoherence to any of them -- they all very much conclude in ways that are narratively, tonally and thematically consistent with everything leading up to it (the spoiler[bittersweet loneliness in Lain, anti-climatic continuation of daily life in NieA_7, the redemption and release in Haibane, and the cathartic (self-)destruction in TEX]). If we preclude ambiguity from being a potentially desirable narrative trait, fiction becomes a whole lot more boring and uncreative.

I would also say that there's real emotional honesty of human behavior and limited knowledge in all of the shows (even in Lain!) which really strike a chord in fans of the show (including myself). It's not an issue of being "deep" or "profound" -- that's equivalent to trying to quantify something intangible within a show, and utterly meaningless. So I can't relate to people when they say any of the series is nonsensical/pretentious, emotionally hollow, unnecessarily melodramatic (which I've actually seen said about Haibane before!), etc. I feel they all portray issues of malleable identities, self-hatred, uncertainty, ideological fighting, regret, etc. in a way that I find true to my experience and that of others, even if there modes of presentation are fantastical or (initially) bewildering. I can relate to all of them in different ways.

I can at least say that other Haibane Renmei fans in this thread can really empathize or sympathize with Rakka and Reki: spoiler[Reki burdening herself with guilt because she doesn't want to acknowledge alternatives Rakka breaking down (in episode 10?) because she seems unable to help Reki; the abruptness for when someone has passed one, as Kuu technically does...] I can't prove authorial intent, but it feels that those emotions and ideas are really coming from ABe with personal experience and perspective, rather than merely creating events just for drama. I really appreciate that.

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