Forum - View topicMobile Suit Gundam SEED... wow!... Destiny... WTF?!
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Tony K.
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 11446 Location: Frisco, TX |
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After watching about half the series on Toonami a while back, I managed to buy the rest of the DVDs around last summer and finally got to rewatching the series this past week.
The art and animation looked a bit too digital, but then I just started with watching Vol. 6 on my computer, and I think the monitor's resolution fixed that right up. And with the progression being this far in the series, I'd probably bump those production values up from the B's to the A's. Don't care too much for the character designs, they all basically have the same face: a little slit on the top of the nose, a little slit on the bottom of the nose, and a shadow on the side of it 2-3 times bigger. The only difference is the color of their eyes and style of their hair. CG intergration ranges from choppy (like up-close shots of the Archangel) to really smooth (like when the Archangel was taking off of the water). One thing that bugged me a little when watching this on the TV was the camera panning. Lots of side panning and zooming effects with that still and very digital coloring just felt kind of cheap. On the computer, it feels less digitial and a little closer to hand-drawn. But not being an animation guru, I'm not sure on the technical descriptions or how to really describe such terminology. The music is stellar. I've always been a fan of Toshihiko Sahashi and his incredible brass composistions. He encompasses a great mix of sypmphonic and synth work to make a very dramatic, or even epic soundtrack. A lot of the BGM here reminds me of Fatal Fury: The Motion Picture (which really should've had an OST made) and Angel Links (who I am the only fan of around here). I've got the Strike Gundam's theme stuck in my head  . Oh, and especially good stuff on the timing and melodies of the piano pieces as well; they're quite melancholy and fitting for the scenes being played in.
I really like the OP and ED songs too. As strange as he may look in his androgeny, T.M.Revolution does some pretty good J-Pop/Rock tunes every now and then; great job on Invoke and that one insert song, Meteor. A nice touch of Yuuki Kajiura and See-Saw as well in ED #1 (don't want to type the title because it's too long  ). Moment is alright. but I'm more confused by the group's name, Vivian or Kazuma. So which one is the lead, Vivian or Kazuma  ? I really like OP #3, though, Believe by Nami Tamaki. Hard to "believe" she was only 14 when she made that song, but it's a nice, upbeat techno-ish J-Pop tune, and it goes very well with the opening sequence.
Voice acting is excellent on the Japanese side (except for Aisha, Waltfeld's lady, that girl needs some acting lessons; I laugh every time spoiler[ I hear her go "ah!" when their mobile suit is about to explode]. But aside from that, it's quite the cast of seiyuu for much of the main line-up. In particular, I'm impressed with Naomi Shindoh's Cagalli. I thought her voice was going to be another butch heroine like Jo in Burst Angel, but it kind of grows on you around the middle (more dramatically scripted) episodes. There really are a lot of solid performances, which is real unfortunate for the dub. The dub; I'll admit I've always been a big Ocean-Vancouver groupie, but this is job makes me nearly cringe. The actual casting is decent for a few of the main characters, but the dialogue and delivery is dang-near atrocious. And what's more, I feel like I'm getting 3 different sets of the script here: the dub, the Japanese track, and subtitles that sometimes fit neither of the 2. I was never on the SEED bandwagon back in the days of its fansubs, so I don't know about the different spellings of names and such, so forgive my ignorance. Based on Japanese transliteration, I think I get the gist of their pronunciations, but that's about it. Anyway, with the exception of Brian Drummond as Andrew "Desert Tiger" Waltfeld and Lisa Ann Belay as Lt. Murrue "Jiggly Boobs" Ramius (two old-time faves of mine, the voices, not the boobs ), much of the dub is borderline on stale, but at least it's better than what Blue Water might've done.
And now the story. Prior to watching Vol. 5 and 6 today, I thought this would be a Good / B+ series at most. spoiler[ You've got the whole parallel plot elements of Naturals vs. the Newtypes/Coordinators, though without the whole evolution twist, and friend vs. friend in Kira and Athrun. As the trend usually goes, these two friends are "destined" to fight each other on the battle field at some point. Okay, I had that one predicted.] spoiler[ Then you have the little meeting between Kira, Cagalli, and Waltfeld. They discuss what makes a war and question "how are you really supposed to end something like this; until your enemy is destroyed?" Cool, a little bit of rhetoric to sleep on. It brings the aspect of resolution to mind with the hope of a nice, little twist at the end, perhaps.] spoiler[ And then you have Cagalli reaching her home in Orb and getting that little pep-talk from her father. We get a little more philosophical dictation and are led to think about Cagalli's own motives and how she plans to particpate in a later role (maybe?).] But then you get to the meat of the emotions. Episodes 28-30 spoiler[ where (as silly as it felt at first) Torii "united" Kira with Athrun at the fence of the base, and he (Kira) says "a friend gave this to me... a good friend" (or whatever it translates to). I've seen many a shounen anime where friends eventually become rivals and openly confess that they still don't truly hate each other, but after all that happened to this point, I felt that scene was well-placed in the overall story and did wonders for stabilizing just how impactful this event was supposed to be.] spoiler[ Then you have Nicol getting killed in ep. 29. In all of my Gundam watching days, this is actually one of the more shocking death scenes I've witnessed. While they did little to build his character, those small parts they did have really helped in showing he's not such a bad guy, and it was really sad to see him die, and cut through the torso through his Gundam, no doubt. It felt gruesome, surprising, and very, very sad all at the same time.] Then in episode 30 spoiler[ you have Tolle getting killed by Athrun. While a bit predictable in the whole concept of "an eye for an eye," it was sad to see him die as well. The irrationality of youth and their crazy willingness to whatever they feel is right, or whatever it is we all once had, is something I forget ever existed sometimes. In retrospect, while it was obviously a foolish decision for Tolle to fly out there, the circumstances are understandable in the theme running amongst Kira and his friends: "do what you can because you can in the first place." Kira pilots the Strike because he can, and Tolle piloted the Sky Grasper 2 because he thought he could.] Which then brings us to that useless slut-of-a-b**ch, Flay Allster (replace the "-llster" with "-sshole,") easily my most hated character in all of Gundam right now. Yes, even more so than Quess Paraya. spoiler[ She's all racist and junk against Coordinatiors like it was the freakin' Civil War all over again, gets all panicky when her father's ship gets attacked, goes screaming her head off in shock, blames Kira for the whole mess, comes to the conclusion of "oh, I'll just join the military and get revenge on all of those damn Coordinators. What, Kira is staying? Hee, hee, I'll just use my stank p*ssy and hormonally charged to body to seduce him and make him my b**ch. Once he's hypnotized by my 'giving him some--,' he'll have no choice but to protect me with all his might and destroy every last one of those freaks of nature. MWA HAHAHAHA!"] Yeah, can't wait for her to die. I will probably finish the series by Thursday, but I'm open and willing to discuss this series. The highest rating I've ever given a Gundam title is an Excellent / A for the First Gundam movie trilogy and Endless Waltz. The way things are going now, I just might give this one the same thing (to rate any Gundam a Masterpeice / A+ is a long shot, but you never know..). And please do not mention SEED Destiny yet, as I will start that next week. For now, just try to stay on SEED. Thanks. EDIT: Personally, I hate using the initials "WTF." It's immature, boorish, uncivilized, overused, and cursing just isn't a normal part of my nature... But that Shitnn-face Rat Bastard Assuka pisses me off to no bounds. Not only does his presence in Destiny totally ruin the series with his "revenge = me being self-righteous so I can avenge my mutiliated parents and one-armed sister who died at the hands of the Attha family and Orb, oh, and I think I'm better than everyone because power is absolute, and I don't listen to any kind of logic because I'm a stupid son-of-a-b**ch that likes to protect brainless, incognitive, annoying, big-boobed, fanservice sluts with blonde hair named Stella with no other choice of life even though stupid sh*t-faces like Shitnn believes in me for no logical reason" kind of attiude. Last edited by Tony K. on Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:16 am; edited 2 times in total |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Some interesting points.
I too am a fan of SEED. I watched it on TV so I saw the Dub which I agree was mediocre. Luckilly I saw it on Canadian TV so I at least saw the unedited 14+ rated version instead of the chopped up PG version. SEED is definitely not your average Gundam series. I think thats why I enjoyed it so much. I enjoy the...simpler aspects of Mecha. Its cool to watch giant robots fight. However, I generally find Anime with nothing but this pretty dull. (Im looking at you G Gundam). Thats where SEED was cool. It also had alot of deeper stuff going on. Its interesting that you mention the music. I originally didn't notice it that much, but now that I think about it it really was quite well done. |
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KuzuryuuTakumi
 Posts: 58 Location: In the land of Twilight, Under the moon |
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It's been a while since I've watched SEED, but it's a really good series in my opinion.
First of all, I like G Gundam (just finished watching it  ), but i agree with you - SEED is more accessible because it's simpler than some U.C Gundam series. However, because of that, some of the people I know consider SEED and (God forbid) SEED DESTINY superior to the U.C simply because "yeh, we don't get U.C, and it looks like crap anyways ROFL" 
One thing I really liked about SEED was the music - I liked the second and fourth OPs better than the first and third, but I didn't really listen to any of the ED songs However, I felt that the insert song "Akatsuki no Kuruma" was superior to the rest - that song is beautiful and it's definitely one of my all time favourite songs (japanese or otherwise).
I'll discuss the plot once you've finished the series Tony 
(If I were you, I would avoid DESTINY like the plague, it really is that awful )
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penguintruth
 Posts: 8501 Location: Penguinopolis |
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Gundam SEED is nothing but a weak, pale echo of the Universal Century, specifically the original Mobile Suit Gundam. It's character and mecha designs are all too similar, it has reused animation, there are clip episodes, it's premise and the first half of the series is essentially a remake of the original series, it has not one geniunely likeable character, its "Char clone" character is a complete waste of a character, and it has the most questionable plot elements to it I've seen inside of a mecha series since Gundam ZZ.
spoiler[For instance, Andrew Walfield has a perfectly good, noble, and even touching death with his beloved in the desert, but they bring him back - for what? To serve on an idol singer's ship? ] And what is Lacus doing commanding a ship? Absurd. And Lacus helping Kira to steal a Gundam was as ridiculous as any other Gundamjack - no, worse - in Gundam history. Most of the combat was beam spam and the most unremarkable and bland action I've seen in a mecha series. And at least you could distinguish Gundam Wing's garish designs from each other during combat. What's worse is it's even more disturbingly terrible sequel, Gundam SEED Destiny, which makes even the original SEED look like A Farewell To Arms in comparison. Fukuda is a hack, plain and simple. Last edited by penguintruth on Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar  Posts: 16963 |
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I have yet to even try this series. Every time I look at it, or think about renting it, I have an internal struggle. I remember fondly series like the original Gundam, 8th MS team, and Stardust Memories. I think to myself, "They weren't the best but they were fun and I liked them." Then the other side of my brain reminds me of shows likes Gundam Wing and G Gundam. My therapist says I'm making great progress
After that I get all sweaty and nervous and feel like I'm being watched as I read the back of the dvd case. I of course quickly drop it and run away screaming that the pink elephants are coming to get me. I want to try it but I'm scared. For me it seems like each series has lost more of the franchises originality. Each new series seems like nothing more but the same material rehashed with each side having new names and shinier Gundams. "My Gundam has 3 coats of wax biotch so we're right and you're wrong : It just feels like each new series is more or less a continuation of the last one. The whole mech genre seems like it's getting stale lately, and the Gundam universe is no exception. From most of what I've heard the characters are also kinda weak and bland. No real life to them, very dull. I wanna give it a chance, I'm an 80's mech and metal junkie, and a mech junkie still, but I'm scared  What are some of the STRONG points to the series? Is it really worth checking out?
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Randall Miyashiro
 Posts: 2451 Location: A block away from Golden Gate Park |
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I just rewatched the entire series with my roommates a few months ago as well as the three films early last year. Upon watching it a second time I paid extra attention to spoiler[Andrew's spectacular explosion in the desert.] I wondered considering how final it looked if the writers knew spoiler[that they were going to bring him back, or if it was just the animators who were kept in the dark.] Then again I felt the same way later in the series when this also happens to spoiler[Kira when the Strike blows up in a very large explosion. I wonder if the animators are told to draw a big explosion without further instructions to make it not quite as fatal looking.]
I got even more antsy upon the second time through whenever we saw people having mini flashbacks incorporating recycled footage. The sheer number of recap episodes is ridiculous. I only wonder how they could have botched editing this series down into three movies. The worst was the back to back recap episodes in the middle of the series and the insane number of times we see the footage of spoiler[Niclole and Tolle's death] It feels as they use that footage at least a dozen times. Also many of the MS shots got rather ridiculous with the stock footage. The worst was with the over dramatic stock attacks from the three Blue Cosmos guys which made me feel as though I was playing Super Robot Taisen. Poor captain Ramius will always be remembered for that stock animation being bounced around in the captain's chair. If you are going to do something that memorable you shouldn't use it so many times. Overall the series has some nice animation, although Sunrise seems to use every money saving trick in the book for Gundam Seed. Gundam Seed might be my third favorite Gundam television series after First, and Zeta. I believe Gundam is at it's best with it's OVA format. Series like 0083, 08th and War in the Pocket can balance it's mecha episodes better. My favorite point in Seed is the stretch in the center where everyone is between MS. This is a problem that all Gundam television seems to face, and a reason why I love War in the Pocket. I also like the lack of MS types (especially non-mass produced models) in the above mentioned OVAs.The various Gundam television series feel as though they are a big commercial for cool looking MS (I'll admit I actually have a huge MG and Fix collection) at the expense of the integrity. I enjoyed that War in the Pocket only has two "unique MS" 0083 has four and the 08th really depends on your definitions although these are shorter by episode count. I like t the idea that main characters can pilot Zaku, and GMs (I just put together the MG nemo). Everyone doesn't need to pilot their very own unique MS. The various television incarnations feel a bit more shonen compared to the OVAs. I'm looking forward to Igloo, and have considered buying the R2. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18458 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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I watched Gundam SEED during its initial CN/[as] broadcast. While not a bad series, I found its antiwar rhetoric to be heavyhanded and hypocritical, especially given how much it reveled in reptitive Gundam fight scenes that often accomplished very little. It had enough story going for it to keep me mildly interested, however, and I took a shine to Lacus Clyne.
Tony K, concerning Fllay: she is everything you said, but I found her interesting because that's not a kind of character you see every day in anime series. And you may find her more sympathetic (or perhaps just pathetic) in the later stages of the series. (MAJOR spoiler[: Her death in one of the last episodes is arguably one of the series' most tragic events.] |
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Randall Miyashiro
Posts: 2451 Location: A block away from Golden Gate Park |
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Lacus and Cagalli are both great. It was funny watching this series with my roommates since they were split between these two girls. My one roommate actually had a fit when the eye catch changes spoiler[since he was a big Athrun/Lacus fan!] My favorite is Captain Ramius (B-Club's 1/6 version is currently saluting me from a bookshelf). Mitsuishi Kotono is an amazing VA, and my first time through Seed ran parallel to my first viewing of Excel! The funniest crossover is Lacus' VA Tanaka who is Yomi (Azumanga) who is really tone deaf! Of course my favorite VA Kuwashima doubles up as Flay and Natarle. I know I've mentioned it before, but this woman has played multiple major roles in so many series. Flay and Natarle sound so different. I just finished watching Melody of Oblivion and find it hard to believe she is Boca, the young male lead! |
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Levitz9
 Posts: 1022 Location: Puerto Rico |
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I had a crush on Capt. Ramius....but, yeah, they went too far with the whole bouncing-thing.
"We need a way to show how bad the damage to the ship is!" "...Make her boobs shake with it?" ...."EXCELLENT! Stock footage, with fan-service! YOU GET A RAISE!" "w00tage!" That, and I saw the manga--she looks younger in the manga than anyone else. Weird. ....And is it just me, or does Lt. Badgurl (?) look like a lesbian...? Back to seriousness: I saw it. I started to like it, but, you know, it get's too melodramatic about a third of the way in. I just watched it because there was nothing better on. |
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Kidder
 Posts: 188 Location: Bat country! >.< |
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I really enjoyed Gundam SEED simply because I had not seen a Gundam anime for absolutely years (the last one I saw was Mobile Suit F91
which I still believe has the best Gundam mecha designs). There were characters you liked and characters that you LOVED to hate. I'm not sure if the writers intentionally wrote Fllay as the focus of fan hatred, but if they did then it was pure genius. By concentrating all the pure hatred of fans on one single character then spoiler[killing her in a spectacular explosion], all the fans are happy and continue to adore the other characters. Pure friggin' genius.
Overall I enjoyed the entire series despite the reused footage and flashbacks galore. There's actually an ongoing show called Code Gaess, which is almost a replica of Gundam SEED (they even have a pink-haired pacifist princess  )
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SalarymanJoe
 Posts: 468 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA |
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Oh, boy, where to start with this...
I'm a UC Gundam fan, plain and simple. In a way, I was thankful for the excessive use of filler episodes - I was able to drop the series for twenty weeks and picked it back up to finish it. When I first started watching it, even though it started out nearly identical to First Gundam, I liked it. As the series went on for the next couple of episodes, I stopped liking it. A friend got me back into it with the mid-way fillers. From there, I liked the few decent scenes of animation and there were a few plot elements made the show entertaining for me. The ending disappointed me, though. I liked the cast of Zeta spoiler[and most of them were wasted], so I was hoping the SEED cast, a cast I genuinely do not like would spoiler[get the aforementioned Zeta treatment]. Instead, I got something nearly entirely ripped from the first series. I'll second penguintruth that Fukuda is a hack and I'll follow up with Hirai Hisashi being even more of a hack. I've got nothing against distinctive character designs (which are few and far between in many modern anime, especially moe shows) but unlike previous character designer Yoshikazu Yasuhiko, Hirai is downright repetitive (Fafner only increased my hatred of Hirai). With mecha designed by Okawara Kunio, I expected more; I only ended up liking the Jinn and the Justice Gundams out of the entire series. If there was anything that I can say about this series was excellent, it is the music. Not only the BGM and inserts, but with OP/EDs comprised from pop musicians and properties (as opposed to Gundam's tradition of more 'in-house' music production) were absolutely fantastic. If SEED were done as an OAV with the political intrigue that developed later, the music, and less recycled story and "Look what we can do with a computer!" animation, I would have enjoyed it much, much more. Unfortunately, as it was executed as a long TV series, it showed plenty of weaknesses in writing and character development. All together, it made for a truly subpar anime, poor Gundam, albeit with an excellent soundtrack. |
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penguintruth
Posts: 8501 Location: Penguinopolis |
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I have a feeling that most of the people who praise Gundam SEED have never given a thought to the original series or Zeta Gundam, or any of the earlier Gundam programs, which are far more complex in their plots and drama and not overwrought and recycled.
How anyone, anyone could praise a show that wastes time with the same action episode-character episode-action episode-character episode formula for forty or so episodes until the end is beyond me. Everything was so predictable - if you had only watched a few UC productions, you knew exactly what was going to happen in SEED and when. The only difference is that here, everything moment had some soap opera-y drama to it that reeked of trying far too hard to compensate for a lack of characterization. |
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Tony K.
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 11446 Location: Frisco, TX |
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I've seen Zeta and give it a Very Good. I had it rated Excellent at one point, but some of the characters just felt too emo towards the end, spoiler[ especially Kamille, and then they started killing everyone off (thank God for getting rid of that brat, Katsu).] I've not seen a single Gundam series where the main pilot exhibits some moments of brainless, teenage angst, which is probably why I haven't rated any Gundam title a Masperpiece yet.
I'm more inclined to enjoy characters over story in most other anime genres, but the Gundam franchise has always done a good job balancing the two, in my opinion. As much as I notice the similiarties between First Gundam and the parallel plot elements of its (more direct) spinoff predecessors in X and SEED, I don't really mind the fact that people keep recycling the same concept over and over again. The same can be said for a number of shounen series of the tsuyoku naritai variety. It's just another interpretation with a few alterations. Then again, these other shounen series can vary a lot in terms of presentation, as opposed to Gundam always having a war between two opposing armies, an interacting group of characters from each side, and a bunch of mecha. Regardless, though, I don't seem to get tired of it through any shape or form. With the exception of Char's Counterattack (rated Decent), I've really liked all of the Gundam anime I've seen (have only seen about 2 minutes of SD Gundam Force, so I don't really know what to think). I'm pretty much prone to all kinds of drama, given it's presented well and through (what I feel as) good characterization. Yes, I rated G Gundam a Very Good as well...  .
About the recycled animation; that's why I gave Lt. Ramius the nickname "Jiggly Boobs." I've lost count of how many times they keep showing that clip every time the Archangel gets attacked. And all of the Gundam TV series I've seen thus far have been guilty of that (I think, though SEED is actually the first Gundam title I've watched in a little over a year, so my memory is a bit rusty). The only thing that's really bugging me a little are the character designs. Like mentioned earlier, take away everyone's hair and eye color, and you've got one person being cast in the whole series  . The mech designs are okay, but they could've been a little more detailed.
It's good to see some varying opinions from other fans of the franchise, though. Thanks. |
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Facade19
 Posts: 91 |
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Quick question.
Now I began watching Gundam Seed Destiny and am in episode 5 so far. I really like Destiny. Do not exactly why, but i just do. Now would it be better for me to stop watching Destiny, and first finish Seed. Would I miss essential plot of Destiny without having seen Seed? |
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Tony K.
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 11446 Location: Frisco, TX |
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Uh.. yeah, I would think so. Seeing as how Destiny is a direct sequel to SEED, who would watch part 2 of something without first knowing what happens in part 1  ?
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