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On Mai-HiME/Otome (very long with SPOILERS).


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Exaar



Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 279
Location: Delaware
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:16 pm Reply with quote
Basically this entire post is a huge spoiler. I will use the spoiler blocker thing, but there's no reason for you to be reading this if you haven't watched Mai-HiME and Mai Otome anyway. Smile

What I intend to do, for no reason other than my own amusement and to see if my ideas hold water with other fans of the series, is to explain in detail my ideas concerning the relationship between Mai-HiME and Mai Otome, a subject of some debate. All of my hypotheses are derived from watching the shows: I have not read any 'official' material on this topic, although I have browsed some other people's opinions on the matter. I don't claim that what I state here is 'right' or 'how they meant it to be', this is just how I believe it is, based on what I saw. So, henceforth, let the explanation begin.

I will start by listing a number of statements I believe to be true. I will then justify each of them and explain my reasoning. It is generally accepted that Mai Otome takes place in the future of Mai-HiME, and that at least one character (Miyu) is the same character as from HiME, not just a re-used face. I will view these as true assumptions. My hypotheses are as follows:

First,The Origin of Otomes

Based on the revelations in the later episodes, the conclusion I have come to is that Otomes are, in effect, false HiMEs created by the Searrs Foundation after the cessation of the Carnival. The evidence for this is everywhere: The ubiquitousness of the Searrs Foundation symbol is one of the most prominant. It is everywhere in this series, from on the Shinso's tanks (most prominantly on Rena Sayers') to the screens Miyu uses to access the Administar. The fact that she has such access is another strong argument for the fact that Searrs is the origin of Otome tech: The Administar, which apparently controls all Otome GEMs, is accessable through a Searrs Foundation interface.

I think some of the best clues to how this came about are revealed by Miyu in the hot baths scene where she, Mikoto, and the others are relaxing. First off, let me say that I firmly believe that the Cat Goddess Mikoto of Otome is actually the same Mikoto from HiME. She has the original HiME mark in the same place, and speaks all-too-familiarily about events/people from the past. Furthermore, Miyu calls her 'the last of the original materializers' and the 'Crystal Princess'. As we all recall from HiME, the Crystal Princess is the title given to the HiME who wins the Carnival. Although Mai was acknowledged as the winner at the end of HiME, the addition of Alyssa Searrs to the Carnival left two surviving HiME at the end: Mai and Mikoto. Therefore it is possible that Mikoto could also be considered a Crystal Princess as a winner of the Carnival.

The most illuminating remark relevant to the origins of Otome, though, is when Miyu says that Mikoto is 'the prototype of the type two materializers'. There are other instances in the series when Miyu refers to Otomes as 'type two'. This leads me to believe that the Searrs Foundation, who clearly are the originators of Otome Tech, created it by extending the research that created Alyssa by studying Mikoto. Using her, the last surviving HiME, as a prototype, they developed the nanomachines that transformed ordinary girls into Otome, or 'type two materializers'. The Administar, which apparently has control over all GEMs, was undoubtedly created by Searrs to serve the role of a false HiME star: whether the star is required for the technology to work, or is simply the administrating device set in that form as a tribute to the origins of the technology, I don't claim to know. The fact that the Searrs symbol on Miyu's screens transforms into a HiME symbol when she frees the Otome from their contracts further suggests a connection between HiME and Otome. In any event, the gigantic Searrs Foundation symbol that is emblazoned on the moon when the Administar is accessed by Miyu should be evidence enough for anyone to conclude that the Foundation is the origin of the tech.

I also believe the Searrs Foundation created the Harmonium, since it obviously requires at least one Otome to function. It was also responsible for the past destruction of the world, after which the Otome system was put into effect.

And what of the Searrs Foundation now? Clearly it no longer exists, apart from Miyu, but I believe that Schwarz is a derivative of it. John Smith worked for Searrs in HiME, and was significantly disloyal to them, and his face-double in Otome works for Schwarz and displays intimate knowledge of the workings of Otome and the Harmonium. I think the connection is something like this: Schwarz is the remains of a rebel faction within the Searrs Foundation. The Foundation wants to bring about the Golden Millenium, and Schwarz is German for 'black', which could be considered an opposite of the golden light Searrs is striving for. Smith was already rebelling against his superiors in HiME: I think it more than possible that sometime in the intervening time, he or his descendants split off from Searrs and took the name 'Schwarz' to show that they pursue an opposite agenda, but retained much of the knowledge of Searrs technology.

My next two hypotheses are much more controversial, and less supported, but I still think they are probably right.

First, other than just Miyu, both Mikoto and Nagi are also the same characters from HiME, not just face-doubles. I've already touched on why I believe Mikoto is the same: The HiME mark, Miyu's comments, and her familiarity with the past. But how could she have lived so long? Well, I don't know for sure, but I have a hunch that it has to do with the fact that she was once Miroku's vessel. Miroku was brother to the Obsidian Lord in HiME, the other major demonic force of the series. Mikoto was born and raised, basically, to be Miroku's vessel. She is never shown to have real parents, and is instead shown being taught and coached by the Obsidian Lord himself during her childhood. I think it is possible that she is actually not human, but a false human vessel created for that purpose. That might explain her longevity. Similarly, she is the Crystal Princess. The Crystal Princess usually lives for 300 years after the Carnival she wins, but Otome is more than 300 years in the future of Otome, almost certainly. But maybe, since she did not have to use her energies to keep the HiME star at bay (since it was destroyed), those energies lasted much longer, preserving her life. This is all just guesswork, of course.

Another controversial claim I'd like to make is that Otome does not actually take place on another planet, but on Earth. I know that they state many times in the series that their ancestors came to that planet FROM Earth, but there is strong evidence to suggest that history has been altered, either on purpose or by accident, to make them believe that. The strongest evidence is the fact that the building Miyu returns to underwater to access the Administar appears to be Fuuka Academy. Both from the outside and once she's inside, the building appears identical to the atrium from the first series. How'd that get there, under a lake, on another planet? It's also guarded by Orphens (no doubt set there by Nagi).

The moon also looks like Earth's moon. Now, that's not very good evidence, but some people have suggested they are on Mars and the blue star is Earth. Well, Mars has two moons, Phobos and Diemos, and both are significantly differant looking from Earth's. Plus, I think it is already pretty clear that the blue star, the Administar, is a false star put there by the Searrs Foundation.

Take this as further evidence: In episode 15, Sergay quotes this poem as referance to their journey to this planet:
"By using the blue planet as our guide, take me and dear Princess by my side through a thousand stars and ten thousand nights towards the golden era of light". He says it's by one of the original people who came to the planet. But if you think about it, it could easily be a metaphor. The Searrs Foundation was trying to bring Earth to the Golden Millenium, the Era of Light. This poem could be a wish for the Otomes, guided by the false blue star, to guide the world to the Golden Millenium.

In summary, I think it went like this after the end of HiME:

The Searrs Foundation, using Mikoto as a prototype, creates Otome as false HiME, governed by the Administar. They also create the Harmonium. In a huge war started in that era, the Harmonium is used to literally destroy and re-make the world, Earth. The survivors gathered what technology they could, and instituted the Otome system to see that no such war ever happened again. The world was so changed by these events that they reffered to it as a 'new world', and through the distortion of time, people in the 'dark ages' that followed actually came to believe they were no longer on Earth.

Whew. That's my version of the HiME/Otome connection. Do I think about this way too much? Yes. Is anyone likely to care enough to read the whole thing? Maybe not. But once I came up with all this, I felt like I had to tell SOMEONE, and none of my friends care enough about it to have an opinion on the subject. So, anyone who's still reading: Thanks for lending an ear! Comments and alternatives welcome!


Last edited by Exaar on Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:01 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Zalis116
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:14 pm Reply with quote
Wow, most impressive. (And yes, I did read it all.) I'd have to watcth the two series again to get into extreme detail, but I will comment on one thing:
Exaar wrote:
spoiler[The strongest evidence is the fact that the building Miyu returns to underwater to access the Administar appears to be Fuuka Academy. Both from the outside and once she's inside, the building appears identical to the atrium from the first series. How'd that get there, under a lake, on another planet? It's also guarded by Orphens (no doubt set there by Nagi).
]


Yes, I thought the exact same thing when I saw that scene--in episode 24, was it? Idk, I suggest editing the topic title to say "Spoiler Warning" and ditching the tags, because otherwise this page'll turn into a sea of black very quickly.
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Exaar



Joined: 19 Apr 2006
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Location: Delaware
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:03 pm Reply with quote
Yeah, you're right. I changed the title and removed the black stuff.
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DaZ616



Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 327
Location: Sydney, Australia
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:13 am Reply with quote
Very interesting. And yes i read the whole thing too Very Happy .

Im gonna re-watch both series to look for your points you stated and pointed out.

Nice work Exaar


-DaZ
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rozza



Joined: 12 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:06 am Reply with quote
if i rember in hime ther is a line somewher that sez that ther not on erath but another planiet varry simler to erath if i rember its near the end but id need to wach it agen to be shore
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PetrifiedJello



Joined: 11 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:03 pm Reply with quote
Exaar wrote:
Do I think about this way too much?

Not sure how "too much" is defined, but you wouldn't be alone.

Quote:
Is anyone likely to care enough to read the whole thing?

I wouldn't post if I didn't.

Quote:
So, anyone who's still reading: Thanks for lending an ear!

Give it back. I only offered my eyeballs.



Now, a favor... go back and add why you think Nagi isn't a double. You started to explain it, but instead, went on the support for Mikoto.

When I first watched Mai-Otome, I figured I'd be witnessing a retelling. Was I wrong. After comparing (damn, it's impossible not to!) as the story progressed, I instantly picked up the references to Mai-HiME as well.

First, an observation regarding "original" HiMEs. If you recall, all the characters were restored at the end of the original, so the "Crystal Princess" was, in effect, moot. I took this to be key the originals were... well... the same characters in Mai-Otome! A stretch, I know, but there's a reason to believe this.

The childs. Midori still had hers, without alteration, but Natsuki pulls one out which is a deformation of her original. Even commanding it to load a silver cartridge.

In fact, many of the leading Otomes had weapons which looked very similar to their childs. Even Juliet, who was a student, had a resemblence of hers.

Now, this is where things get way off the track, but I don't believe Mai-Otome is set that far into the future. In fact, I'd garner it's less than 200 years.

If a war did break out after the events of Mai-HiME, then it's quite possible the descendants felt the original "earth" was destroyed and they're now on a new one.

The war could have also affected the original HiME, which is why they have no recollection of their previous life.

History has shown many places change their names after catastrophic events if nothing more than to erase those memories, and it makes sense.

Another aspect to defend this theory is Miyu herself. She still looks the same, but carries some incredible historical information. Technology may be great when it's brand new, but even the best of designs fail over time. Thus, there's no way Miyu could live centuries and retain her current look. Components break down and memories fail over time (both natural and man-made).

I may not recall this correctly, but wasn't the red star in the original also a space station? I could have sworn the red faded as the HiME were restored and completed the conflict. Now I'll have to re-watch it to be sure!

There's definitely no disputing the Searrs references and those definitely helped change the mindset from comparison to continuation.

Whew. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought this. I had even considered making a similar thread two weeks ago when I finished Mai-Otome again but felt people would just take it as a "Which is better?" thread.

Kudos for this thread. It made me happy knowing I wasn't the only one who put such thought into these series.
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BES Null Core



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:24 pm Reply with quote
PetrifiedJello wrote:
Now, this is where things get way off the track, but I don't believe Mai-Otome is set that far into the future. In fact, I'd garner it's less than 200 years.

Garderobe is 200 years old. Maria says this outright in episode 17. Garderobe was founded by an Otome (stone Pure White Diamond), and the first Otome-like being created did not use a stone. Thus, Garderobe's founding should be after My-Hime. This places My-Otome 200 years or more into the future.

More likely, it's longer. In episode 8, we see a tombstone with a year range engraved on it: A.R. 264-281, and this referred to someone who died in the war 50 years ago. This is the start of a new calendar, almost certainly timed to their arrival on the planet (or supposed arrival on the planet if you believe it's Earth). Thus, My-Otome should be at least 300 years into the future of My-Hime.
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PetrifiedJello



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:28 pm Reply with quote
BES Null Core wrote:
More likely, it's longer. In episode 8, we see a tombstone with a year range engraved on it: A.R. 264-281, and this referred to someone who died in the war 50 years ago. This is the start of a new calendar, almost certainly timed to their arrival on the planet (or supposed arrival on the planet if you believe it's Earth). Thus, My-Otome should be at least 300 years into the future of My-Hime.

Good catch! I had completely forgotten about the tombstone!
Especially since I was trying to relate it to the age of the current civilization of Windbloom!
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Kimiko_0



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:49 pm Reply with quote
I haven't read all that's been written, but since the original post was from 2006, it might be relevant to ask, have y'all taken into account the events from Mai-Otome 0-S.ifr? There are some things in there that link the two series.
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BES Null Core



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:29 pm Reply with quote
My-Otome 0 does give further information on some of the speculations in this thread, most notably the ages of Miyu and Nagi dai Artai. As you might imagine, this post will contain spoilers for My-Otome 0.

1. Miyu is likely the same as the Miyu of My-Hime. In episode 2 of My-Otome 0p, Miyu refers to M-9 as one of her younger sisters. The background narrative just after the opening sequence of ep 1 shows Fumi sealing a number of Miyu-like androids. Near the end of ep 1, M-9 was activated, and the dialog in the beginning of ep 2 suggests that she was one of the sealed androids. In addition, Miyu says in ep 2 that M-9 updates her combat abilities using combat data she acquires, and she has Fumi's combat abilities. Thus, M-9 is most likely at least 200, so Miyu must be at least 200. Because she lasted at least 2 centuries, there is no immediate reason why she can't last more than 3. Thus, Miyu is likely the same as the Miyu in My-Hime.

2. Nagi dai Artai is most likely not Nagi Homura. In episode 24 of My-Otome, Sergei has a flashback of why he decided to follow Nagi. Nagi back then looks noticeably younger than Nagi during the series. Also, episode 3 of My-Otome 0 shows a brief glimpse of the Grand Duke of Artai and his Otome. The Grand Duke looks very similar to Nagi, except he looks older and has blue eyes, while Nagi has pink eyes. Coincidentally, his Otome has pink eyes. These are likely meant to be Nagi dai Artai's parents, so he isn't the same as Nagi Homura.

No definitive evidence either way about whether the world of My-Otome is Earth. These people had the technology to go to the satellite of the planet and convert it to part of the Otome administrative system. I do not see any reason why they couldn't have carried Fuka island with them when they emigrated.
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Exaar



Joined: 19 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:08 pm Reply with quote
Wow, I can't believe someone actually dredged this up after so long, hahaha.

I don't agree with some of the things Jello said: I don't think most of the Otome are the same people as the HiMEs, and I don't see any reason why Miyu couldn't last for a thousand years or more, assuming she was able to maintain herself. Smile

That said, I wrote that post RIGHT after the end of Otome, so I didn't originally take into account Mai Otome Zwei or 0.sifr when I wrote it, but I think that the evidence in those series more or less supports my original theories, although I also agree that with the evidence about Nagi dai Artai in 0, he's likely not the same guy from HiME. Too bad, I wish he was because I wanted more resolution about him, but oh well. Smile

But as I said, most of the new information presented in Zwei and Sifr pretty much go in the same direction as what I had thought, from the androids in Sifr to the re-appearance of Kagatsuchi at the end of Zwei. I also noticed a lot of similarity between the meteor-entity that appeared in Zwei (forget its name) and the OP/Miroku, and my private theory is that it was a third sibling: they came from space originally after all anyway (or at least I always thought so!)

Anyway, just thought it was neat that someone dragged this thread up after three years. I've watched more than 200 series by this point and Mai HiME remains my absolute favorite series: I've watched it through I believe 9 times now. Smile

There were rumors of another full-length Mai-universe series in the works a year or two ago, but I haven't heard anything about it since it was originally announced here on ANN. Anyone have any info on that?
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Kimiko_0



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:06 pm Reply with quote
Sunrise's Mai-HiME/Mai-Otome website: News page

Doesn't look like there's anything new there, except for some Blu-Ray editions and some comics.
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taikyosan



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:01 am Reply with quote
After watching Zwei and 0.Sifir i firmly believe that the world they are on is still earth (or the original planet from hime.) My reason for this is due to the very nature of the harmonium. In 0.Sifir, they say that in the last ware mankind used robots to fight for them and that world was destoryed. At some point in Otome it is confirmed that the Harmonium was used one time before. My guess is that it was to destory the android army that once existed. With the new world created Earl, they started over but turned to the powers of the Last surviving HiME and created Otome.

Mikoto is the same Mikoto from HiME
Miyu is the same Miyu from HiME as brought about in 0.Sifir, she probably made allies along the years that helped her with repairs. (as done by Akira's Father)

But other than that, i have a ton of more questions.

1. Zwei: were did thorn 1 come from? is it becuase (if otome 300 some odd years in the future) the carnival didn't start that was the fail safe to the destruction of the world and to create the carnival anew?

2. 0.Sifir: Rena had the crest of an HiME on her as if she was an original but it was different from the ones shown in HiME; also, Akira's father (i forget his name.) was looking at a book that showed several different symbols of the like as if, the carnival had started again at some point in time (my guess it has something to do with Thorn 1.)

3. 0.Sifir: Rena's HiME and/or Otome power called Aretemis (spelling?) seems to act independently of her Robe (when she had the crimson jade, not when she fused that power to the Blue Sky, if she did that much since they don't show if the gem broke.) In any case, isn't this the name of the satelite that Maya Seers used (her child) in HiME? and in connection with the Gold that Miyu sees in people that have a connection in some way or another?

4. Zwei: another question related to thorn 1 and the restart of the carnival, since it seems as if when it fused with the queen of windbloom, it had the ability to summon miruku which was mikoto's child who served the dark prince and was connected even more so to the HiME star.

I will close with this, they do say in episode 4 in regards to Rena's Saphire of the Blue Sky and arteremis(sp?) that led them on new journeys (new show maybe?)

ok im done lol. hope it made sense to anyone.
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the Rancorous



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:38 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
1. Zwei: were did thorn 1 come from? is it becuase (if otome 300 some odd years in the future) the carnival didn't start that was the fail safe to the destruction of the world and to create the carnival anew?

And this is the main problem with believing Otome takes place on a future Earth. We know that this weapon was man-made, and we are told that it is meant to destroy an entire world (according to Nagi). Given that info, why would such a weapon be made if there was only one planet people were settling on? Also, why would it be floating around on an asteroid out in space and not locked away underground or something?
It makes sense to believe that the original planet (earth) would make such a weapon in case one of its colonial planets begins to threaten others. It also makes sense to think that earth lost track of this weapon through some kind of malpractice and/or terrorist work. It does not make sense to think that such a weapon was made when earth was the only planet humans were settled on, nor does it make sense that this weapon would be floating around on an asteroid out in space for who knows how long.
I'm sure some one could argue that they abandoned the weapon and sent it out into space to be rid of it, but that would also not make sense since they could have just destroyed it and erased the info on how to create it. The weapon is proven to not be invincible, and going off of the arguments presented the tech of the Otome was around before this weapon was made (again, it wouldn't make sense to think that this weapon came before the Otome developments for obvious reasons), so it could have easily been scrapped and destroyed before its activation. And if it was indeed activated before being scrapped, there are only two ways things could have played out: 1. the Otome or the androids are sent in to destroy it and do so. Or 2. the weapon succeeds in its task and destroys the world; all human life is eradicated and the planet is now a dead planet.
Its pretty cool to think that Otome takes place on a post-apocalyptic earth, but because of the info dropped in Zwei I just can't see that being the case.
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BES Null Core



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:52 am Reply with quote
About the My-Hime/My-Otome timeline:

My-Otome takes place around A.R. 330, A.R. being a fictional calendar used in the My-Otome setting. A.R. 0 should be keyed to some significant event. Because this is a calendar used by the people of My-Otome, the event be one that they recognize as significant. The most obvious choices are the alleged start of the immigration era and the arrival on the planet.

Let's suppose that A.R. 0 was in fact keyed to the end of the My-Hime Hime Carnival and see where that supposition takes us. In episode 3 of My-Otome 0, Miyu refers to the Blue Sky Sapphire as a super meister gem from the immigration era. The immigration era would be around A.R. 0 as the My-Otome inhabitants believe. This means that the Blue Sky Sapphire existed around My-Hime time. In the My-Hime time, Alyssa Searrs was the only artificial Hime, and the gem that binds her to the Searrs Foundation leader is red (see episode 15 of My-Hime). The Blue Sky Sapphire did not exist at this time. Thus, the immigration era, circa A.R. 0, is after My-Hime. Thus, A.R. 0 is not keyed to the end of the My-Hime Hime Carnival. My-Otome occurs more than 330 years after My-Hime.
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