Forum - View topicNEWS: Red Garden, NHK to End in Boxes, Not Single DVDs
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Cait
 Posts: 503 |
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I second this. I also would add to that the complaint that most of my post was completely ignored in favor of giving me another lecture on how I should "suck it up" when someone pushes me against a wall and tells me if I want c item, I have to pay for a and b as well, even though I already own a and b. Also, this whole thing about Harry Potter and these granola bars are not comparable. The granola bars because: http://www.netgrocer.com/pd/Netgrocercom/Nature_Valley/Granola_Bars_Crunchy_Cinnamon/890_oz/00016000264502/2D462 Obviously the bars are still in existence, you just have to go to different means to acquire them, much like many anime and manga titles can only be found online these days. And the Harry Potter book isn't comparable for two reasons. First, and most importantly, books can't be compared to DVDs. A book is a stand alone item and selling it as part of a set and only a set (unless it is Paradise Regained or Brave New World Revisited, which are often actually tacked onto the back of the binding of their prequels) isn't going to save the publisher any money. Basically all it does is forces the bookstore to sell seven books at once and maybe some people who didn't own any of the books will buy all seven, but the people who bought 1-6 will indeed be rightly pissed about it. The second reason is that Harry Potter was an incredibly popular franchise and simply because book 7 was so highly anticipated there would have been no reason to resort to collecting all 7 books into one set in order to sell the whole thing. The "new" publisher would lose no money by "taking a chance" on selling individual volumes of an incredibly popular series. The would, however, have to feel the wrath of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Harry Potter fans around the world. Anime fans don't have those numbers in the English market, so unfortunately for us, we just can't "fight for our rights" so to speak, or I guess more accurately, fight for some respect. |
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Kireek
Posts: 274 |
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Cinnemon bars, granola bars, peanut butter and life in the jungle eh?
I like were this is going. |
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Official FUNi Rep
Company Representative
Posts: 12 |
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Hello anime fans,
We do understand your concern regarding the future releases of these two series in which you have already invested so much time and emotion. I won't bore you with the long explanation as to how we came to the decision we did as to how to package these series nor rattle off the many factors that led to that decision. That being said, we have taken your comments to heart and here's what we are going to do: in addition to the box sets we will ALSO release Red Garden Volumes 4 and 5, Pumpkin Scissors v.5, and NHK v.5. They will be available through The Right Stuf in December -- though street dates have not yet been finalized. Volume 6 for all three of these series will be available at a later date, still to be determined, and will also be available via The Right Stuf. Best regards -- Official FUNi Rep |
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braves
 Posts: 2309 Location: Puerto Rico (but living in Texas) |
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...now will everybody take what they said about FUNimation back?
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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"Life in the jungle" i.e.-Welcome to the mean, hard, harsh ADULT world where people revel in screwing you over. Been there about 30 yrs myself. "It's their bat & ball" i.e.-Sojitz & Funi are calling the shots just like any other company out there. They might throw their customers a bone here & there as long as it doesn't seriously impact the bottom line, but they aren't going to do something that's going to cost them more money than seems reasonable. (Yeah, tell the stockholders "We lost $$$ in the 1st quarter appeasing people who bought a competitor's product") Don't like their rules, don't shop there, but also realize they have the right to call it as they see it. Sojitz MAYBE could be expected to think about their cusomers, but if they pulled the contract from ADV for whatever reason, then they don't seem too willing to work with people/customers. Funi is the US biggest anime company for a reason. Yes, they have to make cold-hearted business deals. It's cheaper to offer a "free" T-Shirt with a product because that T-shirt is also advertising for that product. My issue here is everyone is acting as though the Geneon deal & the Sojitz deal are the same when they are not. Just because Funi signed on in the same position as ADV fell thru on doesn't put the Sojitz titles in the same position as the Geneon dvds. The deal is different. Yes, it would have been nice for Funi to accomodate the ADV fans. Or maybe everyone should have just backed off & waited for the dust to settle. We don't know what happened to Sojitz & ADV. Obviously it was all legal or we'd be seeing some court action. IF ADV did default in some way & Sojitz "repossessed" the titles, the fans should probably be happy for any form the product is finally offered in. It's not unlike an extended warranty. The manufacturer warranty covers so much, but the seller offers a better package for more money. If the 2nd warranty company folds, you just might be S.O.L. Cait-- WHat I was pointing out & what you didn't want to hear was even though it's not exactly in the same package, you can finish NHK for less than 5 arms & 3 legs. If you get your head out of the lock-set concept "I only need the last 4 eps so why should I pay the company that basically rescued the title for eps I already own?" over to "I can finish the title without having to buy the entire series at an exhorbitant price", it's not that bad. Yeah, it would have been wonderful if Sojitz & ADV had stayed in bed together. Didn't happen. In the ugly divorce & re-marriage the kids got makeovers you don't like, but they're still the kids you loved before, just dressed differently.
But you're fighting for rights that only exist in the furthest reaches of the imagination. When an owner sells a product some section of the consumers usually does get screwed over be it a sports team (where the owner might move the team to a different city) or a beverage (say Quaker Oats was it that sold Snapple?) because maybe the new owner doesn't distribute to the store in your neighborhood so if you want the item, you might have to drive 30 miles out of your way to get it. The only rights you possess as a consumer are the usual warranty against defective product, etc. In the interest of keeping the customer happy, most companies offer perks like shopper points, or comfy chairs for sitting & reading in, but if Barnes & Noble was bought out tomorrow by Books-R-Us & they removed all the chairs (because they believe people are reading entire books rather than buying them) you can complain, but Books-R-Us does not owe you a comfy chair. You all seem to be acting as though Funi is the Evil Empire. They're just the new dad As the mother of a teen, sorry I might sound preachy to you. I get a lot of practice at home. I also spend my days arguing with convicted felons which is probably even more frustratingly dead end. |
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HitokiriShadow
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No, I've provided evidence even if you continuously refuse to except it.
But ADV solicits titles two to three months in advance, even though they didn't get to release a bunch of them due to the Sojitz issues. They solicited more volumes for everything except Wallflower.
So now Sojitz forced ADV to renegotiate? I have no idea what actually happened but I would imagine that if Sojitz pulled the licenses, the ADV would want to try to renegotiate.
Different situations and different contracts. First, Funi doesn't own the licenses to the Geneon titles or even make the decisions for the release: Geneon still does that. Second, why would they "license" everything from Geneon? They are releasing everything that was in the process of being released, but Geneon's backcatalog is untouched unless I'm forgetting one or two shows. That's basically what they did with ADV except they are also releasing a few titles that were already complete. I fail to see how you went to Funi licensing everything Geneon had from what I said there. Oh, and remember that Funi IS releasing singles for the remainder of two shows: Kanon and Devil May Cry. They didn't just do sets across the board, they did decide that two titles could justify singles.
It shows that someone out there still thinks ADV can make things work, it doesn't say anything at all about Sojitz or that its only "because of the product". And the product doesn't matter much if you can't have confidence in the company to do illegally to screw you over. Contracts are full of get out clauses and there is no reason to believe Sojitz did anything other than use one that it had every right to do (that's what get out clauses are for).
My point was that while ADV was not doing absolutely nothing, it had not actually started dubbing the series outside of the preview episodes for getting it on TV and were nowhere near actually getting it released. I'm really not sure what it has to do with Funi's set releases or how we got on this tangent.
For the record, I was agreeing with you about Red Garden UK thing. You are free to be unhappy and complain, though when people (not you) start taking it as a personally insult, I think that's a bit much. But I can understand people being miffed and people are certainly free to feel that way. I just take issue with people acting like they know what happened and using to justify utter hatred when they actually have no basis for it or are flat out wrong.
We I actually mostly agree with you or at least don't disagree with you. I'm actually not fond of how ADV handled the whole situation and I suspect poor business decisions may well have been an issue. I love ADV's work on their products (occasional questionable coverart like Utawarerumono aside) but that period of time was incredibly frustrating. I still believe the random BluRay announcement they promptly forgot about was a blatant smokescreen to avoid actually saying anything to the fans. Of course they can't say what's actually happening due to confidentiality reasons, but they said almost nothing at all and simply let rumors fester. I think there were some other things that annoyed me as well, but I don't remember specifics and it may have been at least partially general fatigue at being left hanging after spending money on collecting anime, manga, or light novels. I also have my own issues with Funi and fully understand why people would be peeved at them, though I admit that I may actually pick up a few titles because of their new cheap set releases. But I'm far from a Funi fanboy. Their new sets leave something to be desired in the packaging department and I'm worried about how cramming that many episodes per disc may effect things, though it seems to not be a problem with Sasami Magical Girl Club and School Rumble season 2 and I'm not exactly a videophile either. I'm also stuck with a half-finished Kodocha (I bought the singles). I do feel for people being kind of screwed by Funi's release even though it doesn't actually affect me, its just that seeing weeks of vile comments spewed at them has also gotten to me.
That's actually pretty amusing. It's worth noting that a Funi rep did pop in at AoD and said they would look into what they could do, but just don't get your hopes up too much. Also, it may be worth e-mailing Funi, if you haven't already. It may be meaningless, but who knows? Edit: And I totally should have finished reading the thread first. Ah well, good news for those who needed them. NOW maybe the hateful bile will stop. |
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halo
Posts: 356 |
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HitokiriShadow
Posts: 6251 |
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The thread you are linking to is quoting the Funi rep from this thread. |
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Dargonxtc
 Posts: 4463 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
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What do the first three sentences have to do with the last? Or are you just being indignant? If it is, then good job, if it isn't then I am confused. |
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halo
Posts: 356 |
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Yeah, I meant to post that with a link to hear on another forum and got confused trying to deal with an angry customer on the phone.[/irony] |
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Cait
Posts: 503 |
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Thank you very much, you've ensured at least one more DVD sale right here! CCS, rather than replying to any of your comments I will regard them as moot cosidering this turn of events and drop the argument. HitokiriShadow, I think we're on the same page now. I'll be taking the DVD sleeve out of my box set shortly, but if you want to see it, send me a PM and I'll give you a link to the picture I took of it. |
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MokonaModoki
 Posts: 437 Location: Austin, Texas |
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I think that what you were missing in the process of trying to make points with cookies and granola bars is that people were annoyed at having a blown (MSRP) $159.90 investment in filling an artbox with DVDs that were eventually supposed to cost (MSRP) $189.88. When the ante is upped on them to say that their cost to complete the series will be (MSRP) $219.88 for part of what they origiinally collected plus half of what anyone else can now get for (MSRP) $119.96. That's $100 extra to have an incomplete artbox and half of a product that they never wanted. That does make it an exhorbinant price for a very unattractive amalgamation to end up with on your shelves.
Luckily for us, Funimation has recognized the problem, seen that it shouldn't be considered a dead end issue, and elected to not treat the existing fans of these programs like children or felons. |
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GATSU
Posts: 15585 |
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CCS:
Exactly.
Bad analogy, especially since there was no proof ADV was financially unstable.
They probably already produced most of the dvds beforehand. I'd imagine continuing titles like Hellsing Ultimate just involve getting the voice actors together, since Geneon never had its own studio. Hitokiri:
Conjecture is not evidence. Do you have sales records?
Yes, but how can you solicit a title 2-3 months in advance, if you no longer have it, or your partner is holding up the rights?
They did want to renegotiate, and even said so in their statements.
FUNi technically co-owns the licenses to the ADV titles, just as ADV did. And if Geneon still made the decisions for how their shows would be released, then they'd still be in the business.
Tell that to the scam artists in the housing market. 
The fact that they used it more than once suggested that they tried to rewrite its interpretation.
Both companies tried to get deals which didn't happen. |
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HitokiriShadow
Posts: 6251 |
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No, it's not conjecture that they failed to solicit anymore volumes of Red Garden. I don't need sales records to see that, nor do I need them to logically reach the conclusion that the series was doing poorly. Conjecture is these strange things you keep coming up about the situation with no evidence to back it up.
Yes, but how can you solicit a title 2-3 months in advance, if you no longer have it, or your partner is holding up the rights?[/quote] That wasn't a problem for any of their other titles. They solicited everything else even though they couldn't actually release them when they finally lost the licenses in July. Wallflower was the only one that didn't have any more volumes even solicited.
Okay, so how does that lead to Sojitz "forcing" them to renegotiate if ADV is ready and willing to go try to do that when Sojitz pulled them?
I believe that Sojitz still owns the licenses, just like they did with ADV, but Funi is now doing the releasing. And Geneon IS still in business. That's why they are releasing their DVDs again. Funi is just distributing, Geneon is still calling the shots for how things get released and still owns the licenses. Whether or not Geneon sticks around and licenses anything new remains to be seen, but they ARE in business right now.
You are once again making an incredible jump and it really doesn't make any sense. What I would imagine happened is that Sojitz pulled the licenses in February, ADV scrambled to renegotiate to keep them, Sojitz did that and then whatever caused Sojitz to use said clauses the first time caused them to do it again. I don't see how you reach this conclusion that Sojitz screwed ADV over or "rewrote its interpretation" because it happened twice.
Well, its clear ADV didn't get the TV deal before Sojitz pulled the licenses, but whether or not ADV would have eventually succeeded (I highly doubt it) is impossible to say. But what other company are you talking about? Funi just got a deal with Sojitz and Geneon, so what did they not get? Or are you talking about some other company? |
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MokonaModoki
Posts: 437 Location: Austin, Texas |
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Some of the back and forth in this thread about ADV and Sojitz is really amusing.
Any notion that ADV "missed payments" to Sojitz makes absolutely no sense. JCI (led by Sojitz) and ARM (a subsidiary of JCI) made investments in ADV that got them 20% ownership. The function of ARM in this deal was to acquire the licenses (probably using the exact same money that JCI invested in ADV), with ARM holding the licenses exclusively (never openly stated, but obvious from events as they transpired) and ADV responsible for production and distribution. It should have been lucrative for all parties, but the return on investment was going to come a part-ownership portion of ADV revenues, not from payments that ADV owed on licenses that they never held. All we actually know is that ARM took their licenses and ADV-created work-product elsewhere for distribution. AFAIK, there has never been any public statement that JCI (Sojitz) or ARM has even divested their stake in ADV. They may have simply decided that they could get a better ROI from the completed product with someone else. If that's the case, then yes, something very crappy was done to ADV. From my perspective, if ADV did anything wrong, it was just getting into this deal in the first place. The question is whether they could have been stupid enough to get in a position where they could complete ADR work (for licenses that they didn't actually hold) without actually guaranteeing that they had exclusive rights to distribute the resulting product. If they did so under the assumption that a partner that actually held the license would act in good faith based solely on the fact that said partner was a part owner in ADV (without contractually accounting for the possibility that the partner could make more money with the completed product elsewhere), then yes, they were that stupid. As far as ADV's fiscal health goes, unless they've done something else spectacularly stupid that we've never heard about, they've been sitting on a great big pile of money intended for a live-action NGE movie for a long time. With that sort of bank, analogies that the repo-man came because they couldn't make their car payments don't hold much water. They do actually have money to get new licenses (that absent outside interference can be produced and distributed to completion). Public statements about Clannad (which back up their statements of intent from a few months ago) suggest that this has begun happening. And regarding Wallflower, that ADV hadn't solicited volume 4 before the ARM licenses were taken elsewhere is correct. However ADR work on volume 4 was completed before the rights to produce Wallflower were stripped. Work on volumes 5 and 6 did resume a couple weeks ago (yes, with the same cast). In any case, if the marker for the beginning of any publicly known issue with Sojitz is placed at January (when Gurren Lagann definitively disappeared from ADVs catalog - never to return), then any belief that anything that occurred after January with any ARM held title can be separated from the "Sojitz problem" is probably unfounded. ADV quite likely did see what was coming, and choose to stop work on Wallflower to avoid providing any more "free" work-product to be taken away from them. OTOH, there's also no reason to believe that anything about Wallflower is related to any television-broadcast deal being negotiated or desired. That's not to say that the ability to get television broadcast deals (or not) didn't contribute to this "breakup", because it probably did - just not for Wallflower. The desired television deals were probably associated with titles that hadn't been solicited for DVD release yet (see Gurren Lagann again for this). Sergeant Frog is pretty suspect here, but I've seen nothing to verify that. However there is a series that was always intended to go to television (that has never been announced as in production) that ADV worked on dubbing to completion for two years. The public position is that ADV does not have the license to it (and strictly speaking, the didn't). They are legally constrained from discussing it at all, and if a broadcast deal for it can be obtained then that work product may be the biggest prize that Sojitz/ARM took away from this whole mess. It has toys associated with it. Lots of toys. |
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