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Sara wrote:

This talk of the fetishization of domesticity reminds me of this commercial for the Rose Petal Cottage, a girl-targeted play set. I was livid when I first saw it.

Exactly why is this commercial so bad? Okay, so it idealizes housewifery. In earlier days, getting angry over it would have made sense -- you wanted to change a regime of restriction (where a girl had no choice) to a regime of freedom. But we have a regime of freedom now, yet there is still this anger at these sorts of media.

I know the standard response: "We want girls to know that they can be ANYTHING!" or somesuch. We've only been hammering this into the girls' heads for three decades. But what if a girl chooses housewifery? The knives come out. She is a traitor.

I notice that this "do anything" idea seems to only apply to things feminists like, but not to things that they don't like or look down upon, such as housewifery. But I understand: the feminist wants to give the girl guidance, but doesn't want to seem like she is simply writing a new set of "rules." However, the idea that "girls can be ANYTHING!" must accept its own contradiction must accept housewifery if it is freely chosen.

If you want to guide girls, put your foot down and assert the decisions that you think they should make, based on your life experience.

Just a random technical question, but I'm guessing that ANN uses some kind of automated text parsing to generate encyclopedia links in columns? That's the only way I can explain a random link to a manga entitled So What, since it did not otherwise arise naturally from the conversation.

Very fascinating article, and enlightening as well. Especially about the cultural phenomenon of "dollfie" and "super dolfie". I wonder if the good Prof has come to the conclusion that perhaps fetishes, like this, could be one of the underlying causes of the low birth rate in Japan? I find it intriguing that she finds it fascinating, that these people would go to a hotel with their favourite doll like it was a honey moon, but not a bit curious as to why? Surely she must be aware that the Japanese are one of the most culturally, emotionally, and ecumenically suppressed nation on the planet. Especially after losing WW2. They have been under a blanket suppression of expression of anything that might cause the rest of the world to think that they are in any way up risingly rebellious, or fanatical that might rise to becoming yet another imperialist, or any other ultra militaristic regime. The art of manga had become a relief valve of sorts where mangakas could freely express how they really felt about anything that was boiling under their façade of placidness, and then they could hide behind the excuse that it was only a story and a fictitious one as well. Maybe when she gets over her "research" of shoujo, she might find a copy of "Planet of the J@p" (actual title) That should turn on a different coloured light for her to read by. Wink

For every person in Japan there is two personas for each. The one they want you to believe is true, and the one, the real one, that is hidden within and kept quiet. This is quite natural to the Japanese as they have had to do it for centuries, when the slightest of action, or perceived insult, or dishonour could literally cost you your head instantly. Proper etiquette was a lesson learned well and to the extreme if you wanted a long life. Like any suppressed society like this, art became the release for all that, and for the Japanese it is the art of manga, and that is why there is so much of it with such a wide spectrum of subjects, and genres, much to my appreciation, but damn it was one hell of a way to get there. I know of no other nation that can depict the most severe of brutalities so beautifully well. The good Professor doesn't seem to radiate this notion in her interview, to me.

I always thought the lower birthrate in Japan was more due to two factors:

First, because women are still expected to leave their jobs and become housewives over there when they get married, a lot of women, in order to retain their careers, choose to either not get married or not have children.

And secondly, Japan, possibly because of the war, but pervasively nonetheless, has become a culture of repressed childishness in general. There seems to be such a stark contrast there between what people "expect" from individuals as a society, and how they trend and consume popular culture in an almost frantic and addictive manner. In order to avoid the responsibilities of being an "adult," under which in Japanese society it seems a lot of pressure and stress lies, people cling as long a possible to the pleasures of youth (look at the entire concept of the otaku). This might include a general throwing away of adult responsibilities, including that of rearing children.

But I don't claim to be an expert on Japanese culture, so my thinking on the subject could very well be entirely flawed.

Goodpenguin wrote:

littlegreenwolf wrote:

I’m really curious as to what your definition of a Doctor of Philosophy is

Me. What's that (Philosophy) got to do with anything ? I'm more curious if you've ever heard of 'Design Communications' before today?

Ah... I see, you're an expert on PhDs, yet you don't even know what PhD stands for. Bravo. You can't see it, but I'm clapping for your outstanding performance.

To answer your question, yes I have heard of Design Communications before today. I'm an art major, it's something we study. In fact, it's basically all we do as art students in terms of art related classes outside of our actual art projects. Various schools put the word visual in it here or there sometimes, but it's the same thing. If you don't think it's something actually used in the real world to make money you've probably never seen an advertisement, art, watched a movie, or heck, anime.

You'd be surprised in how much psychology there actually is in art and advertising. As for culture studies, well, without art their is no such thing as culture, it goes hand in hand with our art history classes, a requirement for some with the degree, and with art history courses you study everything from philosophy, sociology, political theory, basic world history, as well as a bonus in basic architecture. That's not even going into the typical academic classes we have to take on top of the basic art courses to attain a degree.

Do I buy that she's studied all that for years on top of years to attain a PhD? I don't doubt it.

So, like people can study anime for a living? that's like...wierd...
It sounds awesome at first, but I think I'd ratherjust keep it a hobby, I dunno.

Wooga wrote:

So, like people can study anime for a living? that's like...wierd...
It sounds awesome at first, but I think I'd ratherjust keep it a hobby, I dunno.

What's weird about it? How is it any different from studying film for a living? Or Roman architecture? Or Shakespeare?

Kenotic wrote:

I'm going to have to look up the Mechademia journal and see if I can find it in town. Any people from Minneapolis with an idea where you can find it? I'll order it otherwise, but it'd be fun to find it in a local store Smile

I spotted the first issue in MCAD's art store when I visited Minneapolis in July (bonus: it features artwork by yours truly! ;p). It may still be there; otherwise I think Amazon is probably your best bet.

Vantos wrote:

I know the standard response: "We want girls to know that they can be ANYTHING!" or somesuch. We've only been hammering this into the girls' heads for three decades. But what if a girl chooses housewifery? The knives come out. She is a traitor.

I notice that this "do anything" idea seems to only apply to things feminists like, but not to things that they don't like or look down upon, such as housewifery. But I understand: the feminist wants to give the girl guidance, but doesn't want to seem like she is simply writing a new set of "rules." However, the idea that "girls can be ANYTHING!" must accept its own contradiction must accept housewifery if it is freely chosen.

Um, wow. You've obviously never read a feminist blog, or have the slightest bit of understanding about the feminist community, or else you'd know they frequently write and talk about pregnancy, breastfeeding, motherhood, and other domestic topics. This mainstream illusion that the feminist movement somehow has a problem with women who decide to be stay-at-home moms is completely fabricated.

The Rose Petal Cottage commercial bugs me because it reinforces gender stereotypes and sets up a set of rules and expectations that will force subconcious societal pressure on girls and their roles in life. The same way this may have happened to you (I'm assuming you're a guy) if a douchey uncle ever asked when you'll be captain of the football team, or how people might expect you respond to conflict with violence, or hide all traces of insecurity for your entire life. There are unfair pressures on both sides of the gender spectrum, and some toy company out there picked one at random and is trying to make a profit from it.

A- if I read the interview correctly, she teaches for a living and writes about anime and manga as apart of her research. She specifically advised those interested in such research to, um, get a day job.

B- How are domestic kitsch and DIY in the US like shojo manga in Japan? I'm not sure I understood the comparison.

C- Aren't Nana and ParaKiss exceptions to the older shojo/Josei rule, in which, I believe, the majority of female characters are either longing for domestic bliss (Tramps Like Us, Suppli) or living it (With the Light-Raising an Autistic Child)? The majority of titles released here are chosen for American audiences, so I think making any statements based on impressions from domestically released titles only may not reflect Japanese culture as a whole.

D- the Magical Girl stuff was interesting. I never thought of young girls as "most free," but it makes sense.

E- birthrates are down in just about every first world country (look at Europe). I don't think Japan is unique in that reguard, but some individuals way of coping might be.

Thanks for the interesting artical! I look foward to stuff like this in the future.

Cloe wrote:

Kenotic wrote:

I'm going to have to look up the Mechademia journal and see if I can find it in town. Any people from Minneapolis with an idea where you can find it? I'll order it otherwise, but it'd be fun to find it in a local store Smile

I spotted the first issue in MCAD's art store when I visited Minneapolis in July (bonus: it features artwork by yours truly! ;p). It may still be there; otherwise I think Amazon is probably your best bet.

Thanks for the suggestion, that may be where I look for the next volume. On a whim I stopped by Barnes and Noble before work today and they happened to have a single copy of the most recent one. I've barely had a chance to look at it, but if I find the first volume I'll keep my eyes open for your work.

Levitz9 wrote:

This is going to sound ignorant, but I had no clue that actual colleges are studying anime and manga from an academic perspective.

This is not surprising at all really, especially if you consider anime=art and manga=literature, not surprising at all. Good read though I'll keep an eye out for the book.

and you may be interested in these as normally I try to aks questions and seek answers in anime that I watch.

You may be interested in these titles though

http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0470415363.html

and

http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0470484233.html

So not surprising that academia is tackling a subject like this.

Goodpenguin wrote:

I'd posit her academic background qualifies her to broach a number of subjects in an academic setting. I'm not willing to posit that it qualifies her as a bias-free commentator/ strictly 'dry' academic on one of the fields earlier mentioned.

I'd posit that this comment makes it sound like you've never read a scholarly article at all. Pick a field like Cognition, or Behavioural Psychology and read some articles. Then you'll see that the strictly dry academic specialists qualified in the field are often the most biased of all.
Furthermore, even in my chosen field of biochemistry, which one might think more objective on average than say, liberal arts disciplines, bias is very evident in the way a lot of academics write their work.

(apologies for shameless derail)

Kaelis Ra wrote:

Furthermore, even in my chosen field of biochemistry, which one might think more objective on average than say, liberal arts disciplines, bias is very evident in the way a lot of academics write their work.

That's correct on a broad note. We're not talking about 'bias' as used in a FOX vs. MSNBC flame-out (shorthand for 'supposed propaganda'). We're using 'bias' in it's basic, vanilla form, to write/argue with a pre-set condition(s)/parameter(s) in mind. That's not (out of hand) scandalous in an academic setting. Material I've written through graduate work touches heavily on economics and religious theory, but those aren't my trained disciplines; the angle I use with them comes from a degree of bias on my part towards the work's thesis. That goes for a bazillion academics in a million fields.

For anyone working in higher ed., something that gets tuned in, especially with younger undergrads, is the tendency for students to equate: 'Academic Paper = GOSPEL!!!'. But as you say, perspective/bias plays a big part in works from all fields. Again, we're not using 'bias' as the scare-quote rhetoric bomb from the political internets; it's an indication that there are more 'dry' works of fact and works that tread into the various realm of (hopefully) educated opinion.

That gets to what I posted on in this thread, it wasn't some damming rebuke of Prof. Lunning, it was to this posted quote: '....and refusing to carry any cultural preconceptions or bias into the research'. From context and background, I think it's a semi-safe proposition to assume the Prof. Lunning has long been interested in a gender/sexuality cultural angle, and her enjoyment of manga presents a personally interesting outlet for that. That's A-1, 100%, full-bore fine and dandy, but it's also a different context than what the poster I quoted was positing. The article touches on a multitude of academic subjects, nobody can be Doctoral-level versed in that many fields and compound a masterly, objectivel tract that settles 'ducks=fetish culture' til' the end of time. Contra to the statement I was quoting, it's (IMO) safe to bet that there is some degree of bias or cultural preconception in the arguments. That fact doesn't mean the argument is merit-less, one should dismiss it out of hand, that Prof. Lunning sacrifices the cutest of kittens to Kali, or any of the other cruelest of indignities I apparently secretly intoned.

Goodpenguin wrote:

it wasn't some damming rebuke of Prof. Lunning, it was to this posted quote: '....and refusing to carry any cultural preconceptions or bias into the research'.

Wow... controversy. I was that poster, and I didn't take your reply that way. Frankly, I think it's purely a difference in definitions or usage of the term "bias".

pparker wrote:

She seems truly engaged and enthused, and refusing to carry any cultural preconceptions or bias into the research. Very interesting take on magical girls in anime, for instance. Her entire approach is refreshing.

Goodpenguin wrote:

I really don't think you can posit Prof. Lunning as a dry, un-biased academic focusing on one discipline.

First, that's not what I said, or what I meant.

When I mentioned bias, I was talking about:

pparker wrote:

willing to just look at the subject for what it is (the unbiased part)... [as opposed to] what I can only perceive as a personal, cultural bias of their own

There is no such thing as absolute objectivity beyond "the apple fell from the tree". Which is pretty boring unless your job is reading meters, and that would be where objectivity can be found.

The moment an opinion is given on that apple's having fallen, you've left objectivity behind. I think we're talking about two different types of bias here. The academic bias that you mention, in my mind, is "Professor Thompson says that apples only fall from trees during May and June". Therefore I need not ever observe apple trees in July in determining the influence of weather on apples falling. That's an unevaluated assumption based only on "authority" that introduces bias into observation.

My mention of bias was regarding personal or cultural bias based on one's own attitudes, morality, etc., whether based in indoctrination (parental, educational) or developed opinion. "My mother said apples make people evil", or "I saw a boy eat an apple just before he killed a frog". Therefore, we need to stop apples from falling from trees wherever children are playing, and I'm going to lobby my Congressman forthwith for a national distribution of nets.

Two different contexts. What prompted my comment in the first place primarily was her comment on magical girls. The idea that magical girls can represent a freedom from cultural or gender restraints was interesting and refreshing. Usually, they are vilified (They get naked when they transform! Therefore they create pedophiles!). That new (to me) bit of insight could only come from someone looking at the subject without negative cultural or moral preconceptions (or even academic for that matter, though that's not what I meant).

Thus... lack of bias.

And I can't help but add... the title or certificates that someone holds doesn't limit their ability to contribute or to excel in any field. Most significant advances have come from people versed in multiple disciplines, and rarely have those people spent the time to get pieces of paper that apparently validate their expertise or understanding of all those subjects. It's only recently that we have begun to insist that formal academic certification is a requirement, or worse a replacement, for intellectual accomplishment.

Cloe wrote:

You've obviously never read a feminist blog...or else you'd know they frequently write and talk about pregnancy, breastfeeding, motherhood, and other domestic topics.

The Rose Petal Cottage commercial bugs me because it reinforces gender stereotypes and sets up a set of rules and expectations that will force subconcious societal pressure on girls and their roles in life.

Wait. You said that feminists have no problem with domestic topics, yet a toy commercial about housewifery is bad simply because it depicts something "traditional." Granted, that commercial doesn't tell the whole truth about the activity depicted (housewifery is blasted difficult and demanding, and that baby will be crying in the night and stinking up the place), but a commercial such as that is not harmful in and of itself.

You are correct -- I am a guy. I am no athlete, although I've never seriously been pressured into it. I would respond to violence with violence -- and women should too, simply because protecting oneself is good.

I do not agree with this notion that girls and women need to be shielded from "inappropriate" commercials. You're going to have expectations on you one way or another. Like I said before, don't be afraid to give guidance about how a girl should behave -- even if it creates pressure.

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