Forum - View topicBest Supporting Character Tournament: Post-Mortem
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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Group D-29
Kuu, Haibane Renmei vs. Tanda, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Tanda is more indispensable to his story than Kuu is to hers, and he has more personality, that's probably because Kuu has less screen time, but I have to make a choice. Group D-30 Ami Kawashima, Toradora! vs. Akio Furukawa, Clannad franchise I don't care who will win this match at all. I'm not even remotely interested in these shows, but I have to choose, so Kawashima Ami, because of Skylark 's arguments. |
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Spastic Minnow
 Bargain HunterExempt from Grammar Rules  Posts: 4631 Location: Gainesville, FL |
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Group D-29
Kuu, Haibane Renmei vs. Tanda, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit voting for: Kuu The claim that Tanda contributes more to his show than Kuu does is debatable. Kuu provides essential services for the show and for the main character, Rakka. More than than the other haibane Kuu helps Rakka acclimate to the town. Kuu's and Rakka's relationship is a reciprocal one, Rakka provides Kuu with the needed affirmation of worth that shee needed to move forward and Kuu provides Rakka with a sense of relief, she teaches her that living in the walled city won't be all that bad. More importantly Kuu's spoiler[Day of flight] does so much. People have compared her spoiler[Day of flight] with death because it effectively takes her out of the story, and I have vociferously argued against the effectiveness of the support a character who is dead, but there's a big difference here beside the fact that she spoiler[isn't really dead- most likely] and that is that the "death" here actually teaches a necessary, applicable lesson that needs to be learned and reflected upon and sets concrete things in motion, plus Kuu has already spent a good amount of time in the story. Story-wise, Kuu's actions lead the grief-striken Rakka to her wanderings in the woods and the circumstances that lead her to her job- her job providing Rakka with further information she needs. And finally, because of Kuu's spoiler[Day of Flight] she learns acceptance of the situation and is able to accept that it is necessary and good that spoiler[Reki also needs to leave and that she would need Rakka's help to do so.] Group D-30 Ami Kawashima, Toradora! vs. Akio Furukawa, Clannad franchise voting for: Akio As a character Ami is great, I really like her and I wish her part were expanded. And therein lies a problem- as she is presented she isn't nearly as an effective supporting character as she could be, I have a feeling that she's a lot more important in the novels but aspects of her story had to be pruned to focus on Ryuji and Taiga more. One problem with her is the best parts of her in the program are the bits in which she herself experiences personal growth and these moments usually don't have much impact on other character's story trajectories. spoiler[Her learning to stand up for herself against the stalker, her learning to drop her facade and show her real self, falling for Ryuji, learning to appreciate that she's maybe not as mature as she shows others], all great stuff- but so focused on herself. When her role is more connected to the others than her role isn't nearly as strong. For instance, when she gives out advice or offers observations to Ryuji, he never gets it, through no ill-will towards her he ignores her and the result is that Ami is really talking more to the audience than the other characters- she fills a role of exposition and explanation, and to tell the truth I usually like to figure these things out myself. When she prods Minorin the results are often a little confusing and unclear IMO- what exactly is being accomplished?. And then there was the scene that really made me think there must have been more in the novels. In one of the final episodes she's talking to Ryuji about the reasons she has stayed at the school after the stalker incident, avoiding the subject of her feelings for him she tells him something else that also sounds true and speaks to her good intentions and personal growth but isn't well supported by what actually went on in the show. She says something to the effect that spoiler[she wanted to stay becasue she saw that Taiga was in some ways a lot like herself and that she wanted to help Taiga if she could. Even though she admits that she knows she wasn't much help] there should be more evidence that she really did attempt to do that. So I'm left with a character who is splendid on her own, wonderful as a little spice to add variety to the cast, someone who could probably support her own story or would have been wonderful in a proper ensemble cast, but isn't really as strong or realized as a supporting character should be to the core story. Akio on the other hand is also a character I really love, he may not stand as well on his own but he is flawless at supporting the story and characters and isn't that what this tournament is really all about? |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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It probably doesn't need to be said, but I'll say it anyway. I don't want people to misunderstand my motives. My excited behaviour last week was not because I wanted to do well in the Minigame, but rather to get rid of a character I thought had no business being in the tournament in the first place. I gave up on the Minigame weeks and weeks and weeks ago, and I still don't believe I will catch up to the top three now. |
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abunai
Old Regular
 Posts: 5463 Location: 露命 |
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Until you said that, nobody was thinking it. Want to borrow a bullet for the other foot? - abunai |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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It's poor form to belittle someone whom you know cannot fight back. |
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RHachicho
 Posts: 897 Location: Essex, UK |
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Spastic Minnow's arguments have convinced me of Kuu's worth as a supporting character. It is sometimes easy to overlook things it seems. However I would argue that the point I made about Tanda having a deeper more interesting personality still holds water for me. And I believe that Tanda does at least contribute as much to his show as Kuu does. His knowledge of medicine and helpful personality caused the star diviner chap (forgot his name) to persue a course that ultimateley became intregal to the plot. And his calm level headedness helps Chagum deal with the changes in his life. And provides sentimental support an area in which Balsa is lacking. His spoiler[relationship with Balsa is also interesting and unusual. So much so that it feels more real because of it.]
He is also brave when the situation calls for it demonstrated most keenly I think in spoiler[the occasions where he drank the flower wine to save that girl despite knowing he would probably have trouble returning to his body. Also when he faught a La-Lunga]. At which time his knowledge of the alternate world also played one final key role. In contrast to this Kuu is always friendly. Something that to me inherently makes her character a bit unbelievable and doll like. There is no one on earth that dousn't get narky or do something selfish on occasion. Kuu's actions and the role she took exemplified her as a modal Haibane. And to me that is just what she was. Important certainly ... but ultimately boring. Also while her example does contribute to spoiler[Reki's day of flight] Alot of Kuu supporters seem to be downplaying the main characters role in the proceedings. Being inspired by Kuu is fair enough but she figured out how to convince Reki and resolve matters on her own. Kuu just did what all Haibane ultimately do. And it is unclear as to wether this is even due to any particular virtue on her part. Deleted the end of my post @ Key consider it dropped. 
Last edited by RHachicho on Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:44 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18460 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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It's best if you drop it, RHachicho. There are things going on here that you don't know about.
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18460 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Just occurred to me that I haven't gotten around to voting yet. . .
Group D-29 Kuu, Haibane Renmei vs. Tanda, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit For me this is a clear and uncontestable choice, as I have never been convinced, based on clips and arguments, that Kuu is that strong an option. Sure, she has an impact on her series, and plays an important role in acclimatizing one of the main characters, but she is no more integral to her series than Tanda is. The depth of his relationship with lead Balsa should not be underestimated, no one left in the tournament (not even, I would argue, Winry) supports and enables the main character more than he does, and he has edges over most in screen time and plot relevance. His only weakness - that he doesn't have quite the screen presence that some others do - is not relevant in this match, since that isn't one of Kuu's strong points, either. I expect a decisive win by Tanda here. Group D-30 Ami Kawashima, Toradora! vs. Akio Furukawa, Clannad franchise This one is much less clear-cut, but based on having seen the entirety of both series/franchises, I have to give the edge to Ami. Akio is, without question, a strong contender worthy to have gotten this far; he is colorful, always catches your attention on screen, is one of the tournament's best comic relief characters, and in his own way shows an important and absolute commitment towards supporting those that he holds dear, including the series leads. Outside of key emotional moments, the scene in the first series where he describes to Tomoya what he gave up for Nagisa's well-being, and why that doesn't ultimately matter, is one of the franchise's best. However, Ami is a much fresher character than some seem to be giving her credit for. Like most of the characters in Toradora, she doesn't fall quite as neatly into proscribed roles as what other characters of her type do, and the current clip (which is the scene that won her over for me as a character) beautifully shows why. When the episodes from which the video clips were taken first aired, I remember a lot of viewers commenting on how her introduction to the series elevated the series. That is, I think, the strongest praise you can give a supporting character. |
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Megiddo
 Posts: 8360 Location: IL |
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Group D-29
Kuu, Haibane Renmei vs. Tanda, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit I absolutely adore Haibane Renmei, but the arguments made so far have been clear. Tanda is far more important to his series than Kuu is to hers. So my vote goes to Tanda. Group D-30 Ami Kawashima, Toradora! vs. Akio Furukawa, Clannad franchise For the first half of her series, Ami was a great character. But then again, all of Toradora's characters were great in the first half. Unfortunately, in my opinion, nearly all of Ami's worth was lost in the second half. She spoiler[obviously has feelings for Ryuuji and early on in the second half, she even presses Ryuuji a bit what with the family metaphor she kept using (different from the moon/sun of the first half). BUT! I plain facepalmed when she offered up her villa for Taiga and Ryuuji to use if they eloped. That is just not her character. You saw how angry she got with Minorin during the ski trip right? What happened to that Ami? Why did she change so much? Why didn't she yell at Taiga telling her what a ridiculous idea running away would be?] Due to the degradation of her character, I cannot vote for her. So my vote in turn will go to Akio, who is always a great source comic relief. But comic relief isn't the only thing he's good at. He also wants Tomoya to prove his convictions regarding his daughter, and continues to play a somewhat-fatherly role to Tomoya throughout both series. So while Akio may not have as much spotlight in his series as Ami does, his character is at least consistent, and to me that matters a lot for characters. |
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3969 Location: New York state. |
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I assume part of this was directed at me for my reasoning? 
From what I got out of Toradora, the major characters, while somewhat subverted, still fell under some form of character archetypes found within romantic comedies with tsundere (Taiga), nice guy (Ryuji), cloudcuckoolander comic relief (Minori) and in Ami's case, two-faced rival. Sure, the characters in the series are given enough development where they don't completely fall into the archetype they are introduced with. But, I wouldn't necessary call Ami's character developments refreshing considering I've seen similar developments from Two-Faced Rival to Jerk with a Heart of Gold involving Ai Yori Aoshi's Mayu Miyuki and Kare Kano's Tsubasa Shibahime (or in some ways, even main protagonist Yukino Miyazawa). spoiler[And the sacrifice of one's feelings to make their beloved happy plot element is a typical romantic comedy trademark (which occurs with Ami as the show progresses).] |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18460 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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You'd put Mayu Miyuki in that category? Really? I certainly wouldn't associate the tab "Jerk with a Heart of Gold" with her. I don't think I'd ever associate "Heart of Gold" with Ami, either. She always had her own motivations for doing things and I always felt she was being coy with everyone about how strongly (or not) she felt about her fellow cast members. Even when she did help, I never got the sense that she did it because she was a good person, and some of her carefully-chosen words were, at times, certainly provocative. As for her supposed character degradation in the later stages of the series (as brought up by another poster), I don't agree with that, either. It's been a while since I saw the episodes with the incident referred to earlier, but I don't ever recall thinking that Ami was acting inconsistent with previously-established character evolution. (Of course, there are many who think that the whole series degraded around that point, but I'm not one of them.) |
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Ggultra2764
Subscriber Posts: 3969 Location: New York state. |
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spoiler[While in denial, Mayu showed concern when she discovered that Tina was moving back to America at the end of Ai Yori Aoshi: Enishi as she was direct about asking what was going on. And upon learning that Tina was still staying in Japan, she seemed somewhat pleased that her rival was still sticking around.]
spoiler[As the series progressed, Taiga and Ami's rivalry cooled down enough where the two were comfortable performing together at a Christmas concert and even Ami found herself putting some distance in being clingy towards Ryuji as she wiped away her 'cute girl' facade and advised Ryuji to not bother about going for Minori if Taiga's feelings were hurt in the process, especially as the two were increasingly interacting with one another. Being cold and direct with offering such advice, it's quite clear to me that Ami's character evolved from Two-Faced Rival to Jerk With a Heart of Gold.] |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18460 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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You're stretching. |
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Mister V
 Posts: 1000 |
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I knew I had forgotten something with all this moving around!
Group D-29 Tanda, Moribito – Guardian of the Spirit Clear choice here. Kuu wasn't as memorable to me. I can't provide much more argumentation to what has already been said, only my personal preference. Group D-30 Ami Kawashima, Toradora! Very clear choice. Firstly, I haven't seen Clannad, but even so - judging by that clip and other people's arguments, there isn't much that would make me like him more than Ami. Ami is so good that many people wished she would be the main character, and that I think speaks for itself. |
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Ggultra2764
Subscriber Posts: 3969 Location: New York state. |
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No, not really. The Jerk with a Heart of Gold trope doesn't just apply to people who are sweeties after you get over first impressions. They can also have redeeming qualities beyond the aloof personalities they display towards others. It's just Kaoru gets to see more of these redeeming traits for being Mayu's love interest (spoiler[being somewhat aware that Kaoru was a man who must have gone through some form of suffering thanks to the advice he gave her to get over her overworking parents not attending her birthday]). She does mingle well with Chika when not butting heads with Tina. That accounts for something. 
But if you wanna bug me more about this, I suggest we take it to PM as Mayu has nothing to do with this match.
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